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    Holtzman

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 30 May 2008 17:27

    Not Ixian, but this seemed like a good spot for this seeing as this would be the technology forum.

    I enjoyed the way that Frank handled the fringe physics that were necessary in creating the Dune universe. That he chose to describe the Sheilds, Suspensor feilds and Foldspace engines all as using the Holtzman Effect shows that he actually put some thought into these technologies. Although he never outright mentions it, I think it can be assumed that the Holtzman Effect was also used to create the artificial gravity on Highliners and No-ships.

    I don't think physics was really his forte but he was on the right track putting all these technologies under the same umbrella as they all rely on distorting spacetime in one way or another. A lot of authors wouldn't have had the sense to give hints such as these towards the nature of the technologies. Or the sense to take a given technology and extrapolate all obvious uses for it (cough cough, cancelation of accelleration forces, cough cough...KJA???? ).
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    Re: Holtzman

    Postby orald » 30 May 2008 18:38

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:Although he never outright mentions it, I think it can be assumed that the Holtzman Effect was also used to create the artificial gravity on Highliners and No-ships.

    Artificial gravity? :?

    Where does it ever mention artificil gravity in spaceships in the Duniverse?

    Their shuttles and landing spaceships sure don't have it(HoD, Ch:D), nor do 'thopters(every book) or ("half flying rocket thingy")cars(HoD), even though the tech should be small enough if you can make a shield generator small enough for a belt buckle.

    there's not much need for those anyway, given that apart from brief periods when in orbit around planets there's no real travel time.
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    Postby SandChigger » 30 May 2008 19:01

    (Small note: in Dung: How Atrocious! Pinky & The Brian have an epigraph calling him an Ixian, so he's cool here. ;) )

    Orald, what are you on about? There is little mention of people floating around the cabins of their ships (can you find a passage?), implying artificial gravity.
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    Postby orald » 30 May 2008 19:08

    Or implying those big ships rotate.

    even the smallest of the no-ships are what, 140 meters in diameter? Good for rotation.
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 30 May 2008 19:08

    Yes Orald, though it is not directly mentioned, there is also no mention of spinning the ships for psuedo gravity. As such, I don't really think it's an "out there" assumtion to make.

    EDIT: Ha, you must have been posting while I was typing mine up, maybe there IS prescience, oh wait, it's just common sense, never mind.
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    Postby orald » 30 May 2008 19:10

    I know, lets just call it a draw then and agree P&B are fucktards, eh?
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    Postby SandChigger » 30 May 2008 19:59

    orald wrote:Or implying those big ships rotate.

    even the smallest of the no-ships are what, 140 meters in diameter? Good for rotation.

    Think about it just a little more, would you?

    You rotate a spherical ship. In which direction is the acceleration? What does that imply about the decks in your ship? :roll:
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 30 May 2008 20:28

    Chig - I've read fiction where spherical stations are rotated for gravity, but as you say that has numerous drawbacks (also some advantages though).
    EDIT: Karl Schroeder's Novel: Permanence would be a good example.

    Orald - I'd love to call it a draw, but based on the feild technology in the Duniverse I have to go with my answer as being more likely. Sorry bud.
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    Postby orald » 30 May 2008 20:31

    I know, like in 2001: ASO, so? I never said anything about SW/ST type spaceships.

    Why wouldn't they use this tech to cussion(sp?) the G's the poor BG experienced in HoD (and Ch:D?)? They did mention suspensors I believe, in HoD, but that's to lighten the load IIRC.
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 30 May 2008 20:37

    orald wrote:I know, like in 2001: ASO, so? I never said anything about SW/ST type spaceships.

    Why wouldn't they use this tech to cussion(sp?) the G's the poor BG experienced in HoD (and Ch:D?)? They did mention suspensors I believe, in HoD, but that's to lighten the load IIRC.


    I don't remember that being in the books, but you may be right. If there was artificial gravity it would be a logical thing to use it for cancelling G-forces. I'm afraid i'm going to have to agree with you if you are correct about those g-forces in HoD and Ch:D because otherwise it means that FH made the same mistake as KJA and BH... I'm not prepared to think that.

    Also, though I am a big fan of Arthur C. Clarke, I haven't seen or read 2001. Today was a bad year, he died on my godsdamned birthday. Great present.
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    Postby orald » 30 May 2008 20:45

    :cry:

    I got a gift back in the end of the 90's with ~70 dead soldiers in the biggest airforce accident in the history of the IDF when 2 chopers collided.
    Not that I care really, but it's on my B-day.
    Nuff sharing. :P

    TBH I find it hard to imagine battles with roatating SS(spaceships...too long to write...maybe I should dictate it to the computer? :roll: ), IDK, it looks wierd for someone used to up being up, down being down.
    I think that's really why most shows have SW/ST type SS.
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 30 May 2008 20:48

    Slow down, I'm new to these things. What is TBH? And SW/ST?
    I'm feel like an idiot, but I'd actually be one if I didn't ask.
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    Postby orald » 30 May 2008 20:52

    TBH=To be honest.

    SW=Star Whores...err, Wars. :oops:

    ST=Star Trek.

    Mainly refering to , you know, how they have people walking normally on ships there, having great control on turning etc like some super airplane etc.
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    Postby SandChigger » 30 May 2008 20:59

    Some quotes would be nice, Orald.

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:Chig - I've read fiction where spherical stations are rotated for gravity, but as you say that has numerous drawbacks (also some advantages though).
    EDIT: Karl Schroeder's Novel: Permanence would be a good example.

    Rotating a spherical ship (or station) is probably the most inefficient way of simulating gravity. The decks would have to be successively smaller spheres and, under spin, would have progressively weaker gravity until you reached complete weightlessness at the center. There would be only a narrow region of the outermost deck centered on the equator of the ship where you would get full gravity. And the decks would be unusable on the surface of a planet.

    I can't remember if there is any description of the deck structure of the no-ship in the originals (I know there is one in Grunters), but I don't remember there being any mention of inconvenience in using it while parked on Chapterhouse all those years....
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 30 May 2008 21:22

    You're right there Chig, a spherical rotating ship would be completely useless on the ground. Unless it has a system of doors on the floor/wall/ceiling and everything inside the ship can be rearanged for different directions of "grav", that's how Pournelle handled his ships anyways, one orientation for spin grav, one for thrust. I don't like the though of FH overlooking the counter-G uses of artificial grav (I still don't remember those passages orald) but I guess everyone makes mistakes. I'm back to my original stance on this - artificial gravity.

    Obviously there would be issues with how much of a rotating spherical station (I'm saying station instead of ship because I'm thinking of Karl Schroeder's novel, which does not have any spherical ships) could be under normal grav, but if you build it big enough and spun it fast enough (not too fast of course coriolis effect and all) you could have a series of "middle" decks with close to regular gravity, high G decks for exercise/training and storage of non delicate goods, and low-zero G sections for manufacturing and storage of more delicate goods. The main advantage of a spherical station as I understand it is keeping in (mainly heat) radiation. In the novel I'm thinking of the stations are extremely impoverished and have to scrounge for basic needs, they don't even turn up the lights or heat the low G sections of the ship.
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    Postby orald » 31 May 2008 01:00

    The passages I'm talking about are in HoD when Teg returns with Tarza and her escort from that Guild ship(?) they were abducted to.
    They have a really bumpy ride down the atmospehere.

    I'm not sure if there's a bumpy ride in this as well, but in Ch:D Odrade etc go down to Junction to have fun with the HM. Again, not sure there's a description at all of how their ride downward faired after entering the atmosphere.

    Forgive me for the lack of quotes, my head's swimming for lack of sleep.
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    Postby SandChigger » 31 May 2008 03:14

    Go to bed for a while then. (It's a rainy chilly day here. I just had a nap for an hour or three myself. ;) )

    Here's one of the passages:

    Again, Taraza fell silent while their lighter went through another atmospheric buffeting.
    "I wish he would use his suspensors!" Taraza complained.
    "It saves fuel," Teg said. "Less dependency."

    That means using them for flight, of course, but proves that even a lighter was equipped with suspensors...which could have also provided a gravity field.

    A ship during reentry isn't really the best example, though, since they're under acceleration as well as descending into the planetary gravity well.

    On the Guildship (before this passage), Taraza's room is described as having gossamer hangings concealing an entry. You can't have hangings without some kind of gravity...and the Guildship is not explicity described as spinning anywhere that I can find.

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    Postby orald » 31 May 2008 10:53

    That's the passage I meant, and I do believe I've mentioned those same suspensors earlier myself. They would act to lighten the load, not to generate a gravity field to hold things in place.

    And Guild ships aren't actually described in much or any detail anywhere that I can remember.
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    Postby Omphalos » 31 May 2008 12:00

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:Chig - I've read fiction where spherical stations are rotated for gravity, but as you say that has numerous drawbacks (also some advantages though).
    EDIT: Karl Schroeder's Novel: Permanence would be a good example.

    Orald - I'd love to call it a draw, but based on the feild technology in the Duniverse I have to go with my answer as being more likely. Sorry bud.


    You rotate cylindrical ships so the people feel gravity going towards the outer decks, and are all oriented head-in towards the axis. A spherical ship would have t have onion layers for decks, and that would be tough to get around in, especially in a gravity well.

    EDIT: Yea, my buggy!
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 31 May 2008 14:04

    It's be nearly useless in a gravity well. As far as onion layers though, that is correct, but for what I'm picturing also imagine there being... I guess they'd be walls under spin; walls at right angles to the axis of spin. There'd be stairs leading to the inner/grav wise upper levels, and just doors leading to the north/south passages. It'd be essentially the same as traversing a cylindrical ship, but instead just getting lower grav when you go towards the central passages you'd also get it when heading north or south. To a passenger it wouldn't seem anydifferent than steping between different diameter'd rings under spin. It's definitly not efficient for gravity, but as I stated earlier it has it's advantages.

    That has nothing to do with Dune though as I think we've reached the conclusion that this is not the design for no-ships and highliners.

    EDIT: If anyone hasn't read Karl Schreoder I'd recommend him highly, he's new but has some serious vision. He works for the Canadian government and other agencies as a foresight analyst, predicting future trends and his big theme is 'augmented reality'. For super hightech but still seriously hard SF I'd check out Lady of Mazes, Permanence is also good, and where I'm getting this spherical station business from. If you'd prefer steampunk pirate stories I'd recommend Sun of Suns. Just a suggestion.
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    Postby Omphalos » 31 May 2008 15:31

    Having a ship interior that can change orientation depending on the gravity source is pretty difficult with an onion-layer idea. You would actually need to re-construct each time you get close to a gravity well, whereas with a cylinder you can just change your orientation in static rooms, like Niven and Pournelle did with the Thuktun Flishithy in Footfall.
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    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 31 May 2008 16:05

    Omphalos wrote:Having a ship interior that can change orientation depending on the gravity source is pretty difficult with an onion-layer idea. You would actually need to re-construct each time you get close to a gravity well, whereas with a cylinder you can just change your orientation in static rooms, like Niven and Pournelle did with the Thuktun Flishithy in Footfall.


    Pournelle is where I got the Idea. For the sake of arguement though, I don't think you'd need to re-construct anything if you had the ability to add colapsable stair cases to get to the passages that were once sideways and are now up or down. Just picture the onion having been sliced into decks (when in a grav well) or "side passages" (when under spin) at a right angle to the axis of spin. I maintain that the idea would be pretty stupid in a gravity well, but the change of orientation in static rooms would be the same as with a cylinder, I don't see what the problem would be unless you're thinking of each layer of the onion consisting of big open spaces, whereas I picture "hallways" segemented into rooms (retarded setup I know, but you do what you have to I guess) the walls of said rooms turning into the floors of each deck.

    I'm just debating for the sake of it here, it would be retarded having a setup with equal sized rooms and you have to pass through one to get to another, I'm just pointing out that it doesn't create any more of a pain in the ass to re-orient than a cylinder.
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    Postby SandChigger » 31 May 2008 19:05

    IT just makes so much more sense to assume that they can use the suspensors to create artificial gravity.

    What, though, can we say in light(er ;) ) of this:

    The lighter landed with a smoothness that spoke of superb control by Station Four. Odrade knew the moment because a manicured landscape visible in her scanner no longer moved. The nullfield was turned off and she felt gravity. The hatch directly in front of her opened. Temperature pleasantly warm. Noise out there. Children playing some competitive game?

    Hmmm....
    Last edited by SandChigger on 31 May 2008 19:38, edited 1 time in total.
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    Postby orald » 31 May 2008 19:10

    Yes, you win, Chig, have fun...for now... :x


    Omphalos wrote:You would actually need to re-construct each time you get close to a gravity well

    No-ships, reassemble! :D

    Do you mean the whole ship spinning if it's a cylinder, then landing on its "thin side" like some to look like a rocket of sorts?
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    Postby Omphalos » 31 May 2008 19:20

    orald wrote:Yes, you win, Chig, have fun...for now... :x


    Omphalos wrote:You would actually need to re-construct each time you get close to a gravity well

    No-ships, reassemble! :D

    Do you mean the whole ship spinning if it's a cylinder, then landing on its "thin side" like some to look like a rocket of sorts?


    As long as you have square rooms that have planes that run parallel to the axes, I dont think it matters if it lands straight up and down or on its belly, but yes, that is hat I am talking about. If you have an onion-peel configuration, then everyone gets flushed to the lowest point of the sphere when it lands. No fun.
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