Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

As the topic states, i wanna know what people believe to be the the reason the Ixians exist outside the Old Empire's feudal system. I recently read how Ix is known as a fringe planet so i could see them practically not being part of the Empire like other planets are. Though this fringe planet idea i never heard of before, and i know KJA fondled the Ixian balls briefly so...

And a side note, i could see the Tleilaxu having a figure head house, though that is a passing thought that ive done zero research on...

Because they violate the tenants of the Butlerian Jihad.

They are not a Great House but a confederation.

Well yeah, but i mean why that is allowed. I suppose lust for their technology is the easiest answer. Thouh them being a fringe planet entertains me more...

Three -- Planetary feudalism remained in constant danger from a large
technical class, but the effects of the Butlerian Jihad continued as a damper on
technological excesses. Ixians, Tleilaxu, and a few scattered outer planets were
the only possible threat in this regard, and they were planet-vulnerable to the
combined wrath of the rest of the Imperium. The Butlerian Jihad would not be
undone. Mechanized warfare required a large technical class. The Atreides
Imperium had channeled this force into other pursuits. No large technical class
existed unwatched. And the Empire remained safely feudalist, naturally, since
that was the best social form for spreading over widely dispersed wild frontiers
-- new planets.
~Children of Dune

That was Hayt computing why House Corrino wouldn't nuke Arrakis while all the Atreides were there, BTW.

Isn't there something about the need for some form of transgression of the Butlerian Jihad ?
The Imperium would let Ix tread that fine legal line because it still required someone to do the deed while taking the rap if things went pear shaped.
The calculators they created were considered by some to be a bit too close to the edge but the people that used them were more than happy to have someone provide an explanation that allowed for them to not breach the termps of the BJihad.

Reminds me of what Paul tells Gurney, when they use atomics to blow up the Shield Wall, about the hair splitters up there will jump on the opportunity to not have to intervene or something like that.

To Freak's quote: Thats exactly what i was wondering. Thats really interesting cause the Empire just expected the Ixians to both not invent anything that incredible, and do anything stupid.
Also, it sounds like if Jessica didnt go mess anything up, that those fringe planets living outside of the Empire's system would inevitably become an opposing force. The Tleilaxu would of course be at the center of that.

[quote="lotek"]Isn't there something about the need for some form of transgression of the Butlerian Jihad ?
The Imperium would let Ix tread that fine legal line because it still required someone to do the deed while taking the rap if things went pear shaped.

That idea is fucking sick...

What calculators???

Ix and Tleilax (Richese, too?) were outside the Imperium. They were allowed to persist because the technology was needed. The idea was that if their technology became a threat, the combined forces of the Landsraad could handle it.

I don't understand what the question is.

It wasn't as much a question as a medium for discussion over something that likely has no definite answer.

When the Ixians first began emerging technologically, it must have been quite a culture shock to the Imperium. There must have been much irrational fear over them, regardless if the leaders of the Imperium and the Bene Gesserit deemed them useful.
Though i guess as long as those two forces would like something, they get it.

They decided that rather than have a house govern them, or any other body govern them, they let them maintain a confederacy. I can see this as a means of manipulation. Rather than trying to control a single governing body that could likely go crazy with technological power, they keep Ix practically competing with itself.
This view of Ix makes them part of the Imperium, possibly even a planned society started by the BG.

My other idea is that Ix is a society almost resisting the Imperium, hating the prime tenant of the Butlerian Jihad because the conditions of the machine take over were more the fault of people. Thus Ix is a fringe planet, and barely part of the Imperium. That would explain why they would need to bother explaining that the Landsraad could take down Ix, something that is implied with any society in the Dune universe.

The obvious answer is probably some middle ground between the two, but regardless however Ix managed to bypass the Imperium isnof interest to me.

What makes you think Ix appeared after the BJ?

Hehe, touche.
During the time of the jihad, it was common knowledge to not make thinking machines, or any technology that could be used to the thinking machines advantage. They could have developed appropriate technology during, and thousands of years after the jihad, and developed a black market for technology just as any society would develop a black market. Their market just dissolved into their culture overtime.

But to answer your question, i was just assuming that the jihad, out of blind fear, would purge technology too mindlessly for a society like Ix to survive. Though they could have been any type of society at the time. They had a lot of time to develop.

Obviously, they survived because they were on the fringe.

Well possibly, but you also gotta think that what fringe space is during the time of the Empire was different during the time of the BJ and before. Pre guild they flew crazy slow, so its likely that Ix hadnt been reached yet.
Though Ix could have been a society beforehand, possibly runaway scientists.
I could see the Guild being payed ridiculous amounts of money to fuel a technology conspiracy that became Ix over 10,000.
But im getting beside the point. I think its possible Ix was formed after the BJ.

Why do you insist on thinking Ix came after the BJ?

What do you mean? I explained why i could see it as a possibility, but i dint rightly believe one over the other anyway.
Do you have a reason it would be ruled out as a possibility?

dunecat10193 wrote:What do you mean? I explained why i could see it as a possibility, but i dint rightly believe one over the other anyway.
Do you have a reason it would be ruled out as a possibility?

Anything is possible (flying pink elephants). Where in the books have you found input for your thoughts (quotes)?

Freakzilla wrote:What calculators???

ow crap...

In the quote Freak posted, it says that the societies in fringe space (Ix, Tleilaxu, and whoever else) ae able to exist outside the normal parameters of the Empire.
Pre-guild, it is likely that what the Empire considers fringe space had not been reached by the conventional form of space travel. (Which is "a snails crawl" to normal travel)
Therefore if Ix did exist before the BJ, they would be so out of the way that the known universe rarely spoke with them, or even knew they existed. They could have been discovered only after the guild was formed.
It is also possible that the Ixians were a pre-BJ society that simply occupied Ix once such a planet was able to be accessed.
But on the other hand, the known universe may not have expanded as vastly as i am imagining it would after the Guild.
I dont have any specific quotes covering this because this is not a topic the books discuss, hence why i brought it up.

I believe the Holtzman technology must have come before the Guild, so people could have traveled just as fast, if they wanted to take the risk.

Freakzilla wrote:I believe the Holtzman technology must have come before the Guild, so people could have traveled just as fast, if they wanted to take the risk.

A question please...is somewhat on topic, I think?

In Dune..
Doesn't everyone in the Duniverse comes from Earth?

The human race originated on Earth, yes.

So...
Did the Ixians and Richese inhabitants came from Earth also?

Well i believe it was in God Emporer that Leto said people travelled across space at a snails crawl before the guild. And if they did have Holtzman technology, then that would still make distance travel a challenge being the risk.
Do you believe that the Guild monopolized something that was already easily accessed?

Also, you talking like the pre machine revolt society has that travel? Cause i could totally see that. It makes the empire after the BJ much more of a "dark age" like era.