Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Spicelon wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

Spicelon wrote:Just speculation on my part, with an odd sense of logic:

Hwi was basically designed to seduce an Atreides. If I recall the Ixians, either independently or in conjunction with Siona's rebels, discover that Leto is susceptible to Love. Is it far fetched to think that Malky was intended as like a photo-negative of Hwi? And maybe that backfired, as Leto obviously took a shining to Malky. Or maybe it's not so surprising that Leto would appreciate, even be found of, someone designed to repulse him? There's irony there, ya know.

Hwi was a mirror image of Malky, not visa versa.

Obviously, but I was saying that chronology isn't a factor. And if Hwi is a mirror of Malky, then by definition Malky is a mirror of Hwi, and I am inferring that it's interesting, and ironic, that Malky was designed to repulse Leto (my inference) yet Leto was still fond of him.

I'm not entirely sure that Malky was designed to repulse Leto. I think Malky's independence and defiance was actually intended to be attractive (not in a sexual sense) to leto II. Malky, IMO, is in some ways what Leto II wants all humans to be like. I think he kind of likes the fact that Malky doesn't always blindly follow him and worship him like a god. He is at times quite defiant.

Tleilax Master B wrote:

Spicelon wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

Spicelon wrote:Just speculation on my part, with an odd sense of logic:

Hwi was basically designed to seduce an Atreides. If I recall the Ixians, either independently or in conjunction with Siona's rebels, discover that Leto is susceptible to Love. Is it far fetched to think that Malky was intended as like a photo-negative of Hwi? And maybe that backfired, as Leto obviously took a shining to Malky. Or maybe it's not so surprising that Leto would appreciate, even be found of, someone designed to repulse him? There's irony there, ya know.

Hwi was a mirror image of Malky, not visa versa.

Obviously, but I was saying that chronology isn't a factor. And if Hwi is a mirror of Malky, then by definition Malky is a mirror of Hwi, and I am inferring that it's interesting, and ironic, that Malky was designed to repulse Leto (my inference) yet Leto was still fond of him.

I'm not entirely sure that Malky was designed to repulse Leto. I think Malky's independence and defiance was actually intended to be attractive (not in a sexual sense) to leto II. Malky, IMO, is in some ways what Leto II wants all humans to be like. I think he kind of likes the fact that Malky doesn't always blindly follow him and worship him like a god. He is at times quite defiant.

Sure, I'll go with that. Maybe repulse isn't the right word. But if Malky and Hwi are such polar opposites it's interesting that Leto was still fond of both. I guess a simplified question is: what can we infer, if anything, about Malky's purpose/design - as it pertains to interacting with Leto - from Hwi's purpose/design?

Tleilax Master B wrote:I'm not entirely sure that Malky was designed to repulse Leto. I think Malky's independence and defiance was actually intended to be attractive (not in a sexual sense) to leto II. Malky, IMO, is in some ways what Leto II wants all humans to be like. I think he kind of likes the fact that Malky doesn't always blindly follow him and worship him like a god. He is at times quite defiant.

Agreed. I think they knew he'd take a liking to Malky as well because of all of the qualities B mentioned.

Nekhrun wrote:

Tleilax Master B wrote:I'm not entirely sure that Malky was designed to repulse Leto. I think Malky's independence and defiance was actually intended to be attractive (not in a sexual sense) to leto II. Malky, IMO, is in some ways what Leto II wants all humans to be like. I think he kind of likes the fact that Malky doesn't always blindly follow him and worship him like a god. He is at times quite defiant.

Agreed. I think they knew he'd take a liking to Malky as well because of all of the qualities B mentioned.

Yeah i can see that now...Malky was a bit of a Tyrant himself...kind of an alter-ego to Leto...

Sorry Rakis I don't get it. To me Ramen are nice noodles.

Yeah, i really meant to write RAmen, so sorry for the spelling...but now that you mention it, Ramen are frakkin nice noodles indeed...

poor malky ...i wish he had been in the book more... i never really understood why Leto had him killed .... so what he helped the Ixians ... why would the almighty Leto waste his time worrying about a useless plot against him .... it should amuse him

He still needs to crack some heads, and making no-tech and trying to develop artificial spice, Ixian navigation machines etc, those would've taken the teeth out of God Leto's mouth.

Tyrant wrote:poor malky ...i wish he had been in the book more... i never really understood why Leto had him killed .... so what he helped the Ixians ... why would the almighty Leto waste his time worrying about a useless plot against him .... it should amuse him

I think it amused Leto to keep Malky alive and his tollerance for him just ran out.

Plus, everyone knew about his plot what with the Fish Speaker-Bene Gesserit raid on Ix. He couldn't let that go unpunished, especially since the Fish Speakers knew about it.

Freakzilla wrote:

Tyrant wrote:poor malky ...i wish he had been in the book more... i never really understood why Leto had him killed .... so what he helped the Ixians ... why would the almighty Leto waste his time worrying about a useless plot against him .... it should amuse him

I think it amused Leto to keep Malky alive and his tollerance for him just ran out.

Plus, everyone knew about his plot what with the Fish Speaker-Bene Gesserit raid on Ix. He couldn't let that go unpunished, especially since the Fish Speakers knew about it.

Yep, the death scene of Malky and dialogues before that were kind of a Godfather moment...

Hang on, surely we're forgetting a previous lesson of this type mentioned in the books? Something about when one has developed in a certain way, one will die rather than become its opposite (a la the Tleilaxu Kwisatz Haderach and later their discovery of how to awake gholas).

Despite Leto liking Malky on a personal level, Malky, of course, had traits not desirable in humanity at large. Whilst never explicitly mentioned, Malky comes across as evil, twisted, unnatural, etc., despite his plus points on being amusing for Leto ("boon companion"). Maybe the Ixians thought: in Malky's years at court, the negative attributes would have been projected onto Leto daily, all the negative attributes which Leto could justly loathe in spite of being amused by something different. Then along comes Hwi and Leto is *that much more receptive to her* *than he might otherwise have been*.

That the plan turns out otherwise (or not) is beside the point: surely this must have been their justification.

Raveem.

I don't think it relates to the BT KH analogy, but i do think Malky was an experiment that resulted in Hwi being created.

Tyrant wrote:poor malky ...i wish he had been in the book more... i never really understood why Leto had him killed .... so what he helped the Ixians ... why would the almighty Leto waste his time worrying about a useless plot against him .... it should amuse him

I think Leto pretty much figured out that Malky had designed the ultimate God-killer in Hwi Noree... he killed Malky as a punishment for killing God.

Of course I'm not saying he foresaw his wedding-day being ruined, merely that the trap of Hwi Noree was inescapable, regardless of whether or not it entailed his physical death.

By and large, he only looked forward enough to ensure the continuance of the Golden Path... if his death in the River Idaho ended the Golden Path, then he would have foreseen it.

Perhaps he considered Malky to be a threat to Hwi, if the Ixians knew how well they had made her, and Malky surely would have been the first to pick up on this, they might have tried to destroy her and then use her against Leto, just like the Tleilaxu tried to bribe Paul with ghola resurrection.

Ampoliros wrote:Perhaps he considered Malky to be a threat to Hwi, if the Ixians knew how well they had made her, and Malky surely would have been the first to pick up on this, they might have tried to destroy her and then use her against Leto, just like the Tleilaxu tried to bribe Paul with ghola resurrection.

Destroy her and use her? She was being used against him, and quite effectively so, from the moment they met. Witness his recklessness upon a threat to her person when the Tleilaxu bombed the embassy!

Ix was the gun, Malky the trigger, Hwi Noree the bullet, Leto the target.

I mean i think they meant her to destabilize Leto, but instead Hwi was much more dangerous to him. When the Ixians realized how much more effective their 'bullet' was they might have tried to use the same tactic as the Tleilaxu.

I always thought that Malky was a cynical old bastard who thought he could cross any number of lines when it came to Leto.

I remember a conversation Leto had with someone. They're talking about his father (Paul), and Leto pretty much says that not just anyone could have accomplished what his father did- not even himself. The other person is about to question him more about this, when Leto stops him and lets him know that there is a limit to what he'll put up with.

Also, Leto recruits people like Moneo from amongst the rebel groups on Dune (and maybe other planets?). I forget what is said, exactly. I'm sure the BG, BT, Ixians, and any other powerful group would have taken this into account when choosing (or designing) Malky.