Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Ever since reading God Emperor, i always thought of Malky as the best character in a supporting kind of role. Like that Oscar category. You barely see the guy and yet everytime his name is mentionned by Leto II, you feel the respect towards him, like an alterego of some kind.

One thing i didn't quite get, is that the Ixians seems to have altered Malky in some way at the genetic level,like they did with Hwi after, but the opposite of Hwi...but why? Why make him a cruel, master of temptation toward Leto II when the obvious opposite, Hwi, had a better chance to manipulate Leto ?

Any thoughts ?

Really off the cuff here and I'll try to add more when I can, but the Ixians (with BT help, i think) did succeed in influencing Leto with Malky you can see (read) that he did get under his skin and perhaps they had to make a ying before they could make the yang so to say.

Another point is that Malky did make Leto much more receptive towards Hwi so mayhaps he was just paving the way?

(edited for speelling )

What makes you think Malky was geneitically altered? He may have been, I just don't remember.

I thought Leto just happened to like Malky, the Ixians saw this and decided to see how he would like his opposite. I don't think they really had any idea of what they did.

hay-ho, I've just had a quick search through my ebook version of GEoD and found this quote.

Lord Leto, one Hwi Noree, a niece of the Malky who once was reputed to be such a boon companion of the God Emperor. The reason for the choice of replacement is not known, although there is a small body of evidence that this Hwi Noree was bred for a specific purpose, possibly as the Ixian representative at the Court. We have reason to believe that Malky also was genetically designed with that official context in mind.

I'll see if there's anymore in in a similar vein.

Rakis wrote:One thing i didn't quite get, is that the Ixians seems to have altered Malky in some way at the genetic level,like they did with Hwi after, but the opposite of Hwi...but why? Why make him a cruel, master of temptation toward Leto II when the obvious opposite, Hwi, had a better chance to manipulate Leto ?

You make the assumption that everyone in Leto's Empire understood his true motives. They saw him as a cruel Tyrant, remember? A cruel bastard like Malky is exactly what they assumed would appeal to Leto's true nature. And remember, Leto DID like Malky.

Yes, i understand all of that, but i was more curious, in my first statement, about the motives of the Ixians to present Malky and Hwi in that order, but also, as i should had explained better in my post ( my mistake), were the Ixians trying to distract Leto with Malky from what they were doing (No technology, Hwi).

An exemple of what i am thinking :

Irritated, Leto had accused: "Why try to hide secret laboratories and factories beyond the Empire's rim? You cannot escape me."
"Yes, Lord." Laughing.
"I know your intent: leak a bit of this and some of that back into my Imperial domains. Disrupt! Cause doubts and questioning!"
"Lord, you yourself are one of our best customers!"
"That's not what I mean and you know it, you terrible man!"
"You like me because I'm a terrible man. I tell you stories about what we do out there."
"I know it without your stories!"
"But some stories are believed and some are doubted. I dispel your doubts."
"I have no doubts!"
Which had only ignited more of Malky's laughter.

Leto knew the truth all along...but at the same time,it appears as if Malky was testing if Leto could really see what the Ixians were doing with No technology, by spreading stories that Leto had to confirmed or not, thus testing prescience vs No field...

I have SUCH a headache right now, hope i'm clear...

Makes sense to me.

They would need a way of knowing whether their technology really worked or not.

SandChigger wrote:Makes sense to me.

They would need a way of knowing whether their technology really worked or not.

Yes that's it !! Headache worth it...phew...

Malky was fine. Nothing against the character, but best supporting character? No so sure. Didn't he have like a paragraph or two of lines?
(if that)

Simon wrote:Malky was fine. Nothing against the character, but best supporting character? No so sure. Didn't he have like a paragraph or two of lines?
(if that)

If you count the gurgling noise he makes when Moneo chops him in the throat.



What was it he called Leto's empire? The Big Sheebang?

inhuien wrote:hay-ho, I've just had a quick search through my ebook version of GEoD and found this quote.

Lord Leto, one Hwi Noree, a niece of the Malky who once was reputed to be such a boon companion of the God Emperor. The reason for the choice of replacement is not known, although there is a small body of evidence that this Hwi Noree was bred for a specific purpose, possibly as the Ixian representative at the Court. We have reason to believe that Malky also was genetically designed with that official context in mind.

I'll see if there's anymore in in a similar vein.

Nice. Good find.

Tleilax Master B wrote:

inhuien wrote:hay-ho, I've just had a quick search through my ebook version of GEoD and found this quote.

Lord Leto, one Hwi Noree, a niece of the Malky who once was reputed to be such a boon companion of the God Emperor. The reason for the choice of replacement is not known, although there is a small body of evidence that this Hwi Noree was bred for a specific purpose, possibly as the Ixian representative at the Court. We have reason to believe that Malky also was genetically designed with that official context in mind.

I'll see if there's anymore in in a similar vein.

Nice. Good find.

That's from the Bene Gesserit report, isn't it?

Freakzilla wrote:

Tleilax Master B wrote:

inhuien wrote:hay-ho, I've just had a quick search through my ebook version of GEoD and found this quote.

Lord Leto, one Hwi Noree, a niece of the Malky who once was reputed to be such a boon companion of the God Emperor. The reason for the choice of replacement is not known, although there is a small body of evidence that this Hwi Noree was bred for a specific purpose, possibly as the Ixian representative at the Court. We have reason to believe that Malky also was genetically designed with that official context in mind.

I'll see if there's anymore in in a similar vein.

Nice. Good find.

That's from the Bene Gesserit report, isn't it?

Yep. I didn't find anything else about Malky being altered genetically beyond this quote...

You're quite correct Freakzilla.

I agree with inhuiens first post.

nothing to back this up. but i sort of always felt Malky to be in touch with the same sort of evidence of humanity and share a lot of common ground with Leto, and yet come to completely different conclusions.

Malky seems to take the pessimistic view of humanity. He thinks in a world of science and causality which almost pleads to leto "knowing what you know, how can you still think humanity can be matured, we've been trying to fight our own destructive nature for milennia, it cant be done". A bit like a good-humoured version of the outlook paul has after dune. It feels like he considered taking up the same fight Leto (and Hwi) feel, but decided it wouldnt work.

Reminds me of the quote from leto about "You ask me how,knowing what i know from my other memories, i can continue to do what i do, i suggest that knowing what i do, i could do nothing else".

And Moneo says also that "the god emperor may be no more intelligent than i am in that regard/respect" (i think he's talking to duncan, or hwi).

At the end of the day, no-one apart from Ghani and Paul understood why leto did what he did, apart from the Atreides he bred, until Hwi came along.

Malky may have been an earlier attempt to understand the god emperor better (leto seems like a vicious bastard, if we genetically engineer another vicious bastard and study him, we could learn something?). Or maybe he was designed as a probe, or something to ensnare the God Emperor.

Again this links in to the quote from Leto about "they cannot defeat me, the closer they come to me, they will join me" or something. It's a direct quote about ixians, i think. Thats what happened with hwi.

Ultimately i think malky had the same intent as Hwi, just by coming at it from the more obvious (leto appeared cruel, vicious, capricious) angle than Hwi did (thereby forgetting the old axiom "opposites attract")

loremaster wrote:Malky may have been an earlier attempt to understand the god emperor better (leto seems like a vicious bastard, if we genetically engineer another vicious bastard and study him, we could learn something?). Or maybe he was designed as a probe, or something to ensnare the God Emperor.

Again this links in to the quote from Leto about "they cannot defeat me, the closer they come to me, they will join me" or something. It's a direct quote about ixians, i think. Thats what happened with hwi.

Yes, Leto may have wanted to keep an eye on the Ixians after the Hunter-Seeker experiment. If the Ixians had developped it in a No chamber...but Leto would have forseen this...

Rakis wrote:

loremaster wrote:Malky may have been an earlier attempt to understand the god emperor better (leto seems like a vicious bastard, if we genetically engineer another vicious bastard and study him, we could learn something?). Or maybe he was designed as a probe, or something to ensnare the God Emperor.

Again this links in to the quote from Leto about "they cannot defeat me, the closer they come to me, they will join me" or something. It's a direct quote about ixians, i think. Thats what happened with hwi.

Yes, Leto may have wanted to keep an eye on the Ixians after the Hunter-Seeker experiment. If the Ixians had developped it in a No chamber...but Leto would have forseen this...

And once Leto II put the Golden Path in place, it was pretty irrelevant what the Ixians did and didn't make. As he says near his death:

"Do not fear the lxians," he said, and he heard his own voice as a fading
whisper. "They can make the machines, but they no longer can make arafel. I know. I was there."

IOW, I don't think controlling the Ixians was ever much of an issue for humanity's survival; what Leto II did instead was control humanity. Once the GP was set, there was nothing they, or anyone else, could create to exterminate all humans.

Tleilax Master B wrote: Once the GP was set, there was nothing they, or anyone else, could create to exterminate all humans.

Not even the Tlelaxu ?

Not even them.

Even if they engineered a supervirus and infected every world they found with it, they'd never be able to catch everyone.

Human survival: done deal.

SandChigger wrote:Not even them.

Even if they engineered a supervirus and infected every world they found with it, they'd never be able to catch everyone.

Human survival: done deal.

RAMEN...

Sorry Rakis I don't get it. To me Ramen are nice noodles.

inhuien wrote:Sorry Rakis I don't get it. To me Ramen are nice noodles.

The official conclusion to Pastafarian prayers is "RAmen".

Just speculation on my part, with an odd sense of logic:

Hwi was basically designed to seduce an Atreides. If I recall the Ixians, either independently or in conjunction with Siona's rebels, discover that Leto is susceptible to Love. Is it far fetched to think that Malky was intended as like a photo-negative of Hwi? And maybe that backfired, as Leto obviously took a shining to Malky. Or maybe it's not so surprising that Leto would appreciate, even be found of, someone designed to repulse him? There's irony there, ya know.

Spicelon wrote:Just speculation on my part, with an odd sense of logic:

Hwi was basically designed to seduce an Atreides. If I recall the Ixians, either independently or in conjunction with Siona's rebels, discover that Leto is susceptible to Love. Is it far fetched to think that Malky was intended as like a photo-negative of Hwi? And maybe that backfired, as Leto obviously took a shining to Malky. Or maybe it's not so surprising that Leto would appreciate, even be found of, someone designed to repulse him? There's irony there, ya know.

Hwi was a mirror image of Malky, not visa versa.

Freakzilla wrote:

Spicelon wrote:Just speculation on my part, with an odd sense of logic:

Hwi was basically designed to seduce an Atreides. If I recall the Ixians, either independently or in conjunction with Siona's rebels, discover that Leto is susceptible to Love. Is it far fetched to think that Malky was intended as like a photo-negative of Hwi? And maybe that backfired, as Leto obviously took a shining to Malky. Or maybe it's not so surprising that Leto would appreciate, even be found of, someone designed to repulse him? There's irony there, ya know.

Hwi was a mirror image of Malky, not visa versa.

Obviously, but I was saying that chronology isn't a factor. And if Hwi is a mirror of Malky, then by definition Malky is a mirror of Hwi, and I am inferring that it's interesting, and ironic, that Malky was designed to repulse Leto (my inference) yet Leto was still fond of him.