Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

loremaster wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:I think Wallach IX was destroyed by Honord Matres in either HoD or CH:D. Either Tarazza or Odrade lists the BG planets they've lost...

The Guild's safety record was one of it's selling points, heighliners didn't crash.

It's hard to crash if you always remain beyond the effective gravity well of a planet.

Even more so if you have a prescient driver to watch for meteors etc.

And even more so if you have a foldspace engine that could zip you away at any moment during the fall.

ZING! BB scores!

Okay now I am wondering if there is a difference in the american and british releases of Dune, because I have not read the prequels and I recall a major plot twist is the guild crashing a highliner into chapterhouse 'by accident'. I dont have my copy of the books with me right now, I will pick them up when I next go into town and find it, this will be within a week.

I remembered that the Navigators can also create a No-field with their minds, this appears in the earlier books to cloak certain clandestine meetings such as Shaddam & the Ixians way back ("many machines on Ix.") They had been plotting this for a long, long time even before Letos birth. The Atreides coup merely forestalled the inevitable but was a useful political tool to them regarding spice & relations with CHOAM.

THe Guild also has maps of their affiliated worlds. Without Choam many worlds would lose their ability to trade, wqorlds that might not even know about the No-ships. I wonder how many wolrds there are beyond the known empires of Shaddam, Paul, Leto. When houses go renegade and the Guild hides them away from the known universe... the Guild could be populating more worlds, they are certainly uniting many worlds, than the main characters even know about. And this is before the Scattering. After which, I am certain that the Guild has its uses simply because it has maps and facilitates trade. The guild space maps are bigger than those known by the empire; in fact with the prejudice against machines it is likely that the maps exist only in the minds of the Navigators themselves, and each navigator would know different routes, different parts of the whole. This is how valuable a single navigator is; he alone knows the spaceways for major regions of humanities sprawl.

We have color coded composites of both the UK and US editions of HoD and CH:D.

Never happened.

semuta wrote:Blah blah blah

Wrong! Try it again.

semuta wrote:Okay now I am wondering if there is a difference in the american and british releases of Dune,...

Yes, there are differences between the US & UK editions of some of the books. There are threads on this board about it. I would have thought you would have been aware of them, valued member, Itchwad Bedwhiner, and all that.

because I have not read the prequels and I recall a major plot twist is the guild crashing a highliner into chapterhouse 'by accident'. I dont have my copy of the books with me right now, I will pick them up when I next go into town and find it, this will be within a week.

Never happened, cupcake. Except in the prequels. Maybe one of your spirit guides has been reading them into your ear while you are away at night on the astral plane?

I remembered that the Navigators can also create a No-field with their minds, ...

That's a rather sloppy and potentially misleading way to put that.

this appears in the earlier books to cloak certain clandestine meetings such as Shaddam & the Ixians way back ("many machines on Ix.") They had been plotting this for a long, long time even before Letos birth. The Atreides coup merely forestalled the inevitable but was a useful political tool to them regarding spice & relations with CHOAM.

"Many machines on Ix"? What's that a quote from? (Right, no books at the moment. ) And what meetings between Shaddam and the Ixians do you mean?

Are you COMPLETELY SURE you haven't read the prequels?

As for the remainder... Get your books and reread them.

Dude, you're not talking about the original Dune books. Either you've had insights into KJA's mind via the astral plane, or you've read the prequels and forgotten, or you're confusing Dune with some other series.

HBJ

"many machines on Ix" is a quote from the Lynch movie, when the tanked Navigator reprimands the Emperor and orders him to get rid of Paul

lotek wrote:"many machines on Ix" is a quote from the Lynch movie, when the tanked Navigator reprimands the Emperor and orders him to get rid of Paul

Whoa ... I'm impressed.

I wonder if he knows that the Lynch movie isn't canon....

SandChigger wrote:

lotek wrote:"many machines on Ix" is a quote from the Lynch movie, when the tanked Navigator reprimands the Emperor and orders him to get rid of Paul

Whoa ... I'm impressed.

I wonder if he knows that the Lynch movie isn't canon....

bet ya' didn't get the in-joke about pugs either; pugs = sligs

semuta wrote:bet ya' didn't get the in-joke about pugs either; pugs = sligs

Huh?

I don't suppose you'd be willing to explain HOW THAT WORKS, would you, fruitcake?

I mean, I don't recall them appearing on a table at any scene, and someone exclaiming, "Oh my, Lady Jessica! This pug meat is DELISH! To DIE for, raaaally!"

Bet you forgot that sligs aren't mentioned until Heretics, didn't you?

This is The Cisco.
Why does The Cisco weep?
We are the Wormhole Aliens
And we desire to know.

I can't recall in my memory the BG lead attack on IX, perhaps it will pop in soon- but unless the attack involved a series of 'factory ships' to flee in every direction, or the warehouse forum on IX with thousands of these sitting some where catching wind- or having orders from a long dead Leto to get the fuck out of there with the stock- I don't think you can say this would be the beginning of the Scattering..... no more than the 50s can be said to be the true beginnings of the great nuclear war in our future everyone is a little nervous about in science fiction, philosophy, and international policy wise- it takes tome to learn how to build those things, reverse engineering them and making sure you know how they work so you can repair them once you make that jump into the unknown.... I am sure many made the jump half assed- but I don't think the Fish Speakers navy would, no matter how desperate.... or a planetary leader with a high degree of experience and autonomy aiming at self sufficiency and seedy side operation operations for backup- these are the types that are going to be the main source of any meaningful scattering- the technically competent, socially organized, and MAJOR property owners who have the means and knowledge of settling a new society somewhere completely cutoff.

Someone mentioned IX would of been able to disregard Leto soon- this is absolutely NOT the case. Yes- it would of loosen Leto's absolute grip on power- but not considerably. Leto still possessed the largest, most professional and experienced fighting force known in the universe, and occupied most inhabited planet's surface. He furthermore controlled the spaceing guild's spice, and could turn the spice faucets on HIGH whenever he wanted by exploiting his stockpile, and simple assraped IX and anyone else who dared to seriously fuck with him. Yes, the No-Ships hid things from his sight- but Leto wasn't a dumbass- he's also has Paul's and countless other ancestor's Mentat memories, as well as Duncan (as many Duncans as he wanted to boot at that, each in charge of a guild ship if he wanted).

The basic idea is this- Imagine germany during WW2 conquers EVERYTHING, all the land on the planet- save South Georgia island, and Greenland, and the Nazis controlled the fuel for every major ship out on the ocean, and had a monopoly on all trade and most resources- save for bits and wiffs dug on said two islands, or smuggled in not too secretly (every smuggling ship is pretty much gonna be seen or found out, either by observation or paperwork). South Goergia (IX) reinvents the sail, as well as Stealth Design and Camouflage..... and is permitted to continue to develop them, and even sell them. The crucial question arises- outside of criminal cells and druglords, or whatever other Tongish Mafia fief you can think of- who will actually buy these things? Who wants to attract that kind of attention to themselves on the open market? Fishspeakers- even if told to allow these sales, are going to note, track, and follow up these sales by default.... they are a paranoid military force, it's their instinct to do so. Your not going to gather a bunch of these pussy ass craft, and pull off the Dutch success against the Spanish Armada overnight. Life is going to continue on pretty much the same- Leto is also a absolute dictator- with all the police and spy powers involved in such a dictatorship- and can still see almost everything in a future............... he's one guy no one is going to seriously expect to take down anytime soon, unless you have a no-ship full of nukes..... and even then, I have my doubts.

That's the other thing- was anyone buying NO-BATTLESHIPS? I've never heard of such a thing.

Also- pretty certain (memory might be wrong if it's a prequel memory) but Leto knew about this who plot openly with Ix- Ix wasn't hiding the fact they were trying to develop these artificial navigators. If he was speaking English instead of Gallach, I am sure the words out of his mouth would of been a 'Meh' upon hearing of it. He wasn't going to spearhead this one encouragement wise, or even recommending the idea- but wasn't keen on discouraging it either, knowing damn well it would catch on in the end- but a end well beyond his end and personal concern.

Onasander wrote:
Also- pretty certain (memory might be wrong if it's a prequel memory) but Leto knew about this who plot openly with Ix- Ix wasn't hiding the fact they were trying to develop these artificial navigators. If he was speaking English instead of Gallach, I am sure the words out of his mouth would of been a 'Meh' upon hearing of it. He wasn't going to spearhead this one encouragement wise, or even recommending the idea- but wasn't keen on discouraging it either, knowing damn well it would catch on in the end- but a end well beyond his end and personal concern.

"Leto felt that it might even be possible that the Ixians had achieved a partial success with their machine to amplify the linear prescience of a Guild Navigator. A small blip in the flow of great events might have escaped him. Could they really make such a machine? What a marvel that would be! Purposefully, he refused to use his powers for even the smallest search through this possibility."
GEoD, p. 162

""You were born within this machine your masters are trying to perfect for the Guild," Leto said."
GEoD p. 164 (to Hwi after he did a temporal probe of her history

I'd thought there was another quote where Leto rails at the Ixian ambassador saying that the machine will never work and that the Ixians are cheating the Guild out of spice, but that was Siona's interpretation of Leto's message to the ambassador... And Siona is kind of a horrible person.
Anyway...
Leto definitely knew that the Ixians were working on a machine navigator but he doubted it would ever work, at least until he met with Hwi and basically figured out that no-globe-ness was a side effect of the navigation machine. He also finds a Guild Navigator working with the Ixians and is bemused that they thought a Navigator could hide them from the God Emperor.
So... the Ixians never set out to build a no-room; they were building a navigation machine and discovered that Guild Navigators couldn't see inside it... so they made a baby in it. Which is what I would do I guess.

Question: In the prologue for GEoD the archaeologist speculates that the room that they found the journals in might be the first no-room, but it seems to me that it would predate the Ixian machine by quite awhile and would have been built without their help, right? Did Leto already know how to build simple no-rooms?

Also, my thoughts about the necessity of the sandworm cycle restarting (and Leto is clearly convinced that this is necessary for the Golden Path to hold true) was based on the theory that mankind needed the spice to fuel the Scattering. But if the Scattering was instead fueled by Ixian navigation computers... why does the sandworm cycle need to be restarted to ensure the Golden Path? Is it possible that Leto was wrong about needing the sandworms to come back? He admits that even he is fallible at some point and his refusal to look for his own death or to see if the navigation machine was ever completed may have blinded him.
Is it possible that he knew the Golden Path held true but not entirely why it did? Did he ensure the Golden Path not because he went back into the sand, but merely through his tyranny- pressing the Ixians and Guild to find a substitute for Navigators that could lead to the Scattering.
His sacrifice is still needed; mankind still has to be kept bottled up and taught the lesson of Leto's Peace, but maybe the return of the sandworms is not a necessary component for the Golden Path once the navigation computer has been invented.

The no-room was invented to hide their work on the navigation machine, they are not the same.

I believe at some point Leto says that the later Ixian for the no-field design was an improvement on (perfiction of?) the one they helped him build for his journals.

And all this is proceeded by the Harkonnen No-Chamber discovered by Patrin as a youth.

Freakzilla wrote:The no-room was invented to hide their work on the navigation machine, they are not the same.

I believe at some point Leto says that the later Ixian for the no-field design was an improvement on (perfiction of?) the one they helped him build for his journals.

If this new Ixian machine works, the Guild has lost its monopoly on space travel!

Throughout the chapter of Leto's meeting with Hwi he only ever refers to one Ixian machine and states that Hwi was born and possibly conceived within it. I think the prototype navigation machine was their prototype no-room. It'd hardly be the first time a side effect of a research project bore fruit just as worthwhile as the intent.

leagued wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:The no-room was invented to hide their work on the navigation machine, they are not the same.

I believe at some point Leto says that the later Ixian for the no-field design was an improvement on (perfiction of?) the one they helped him build for his journals.

If this new Ixian machine works, the Guild has lost its monopoly on space travel!

Throughout the chapter of Leto's meeting with Hwi he only ever refers to one Ixian machine and states that Hwi was born and possibly conceived within it. I think the prototype navigation machine was their prototype no-room. It'd hardly be the first time a side effect of a research project bore fruit just as worthwhile as the intent.

Leto's no-room was the prototype.

I think the INM could have been an offshoot of the no-field, but not all no-fields are INMs.

I agree that not all INM are no-rooms, I just think that the first navigation machine had the benefit of being a no-room.

My theory is that it is similar to any Oracle in that another Oracle can't see through it, only it doesn't extend outside the machine really. Couple that with the probability that the original navigation machine may have been pretty huge (think about how big the first computers were) and there might have been a sizeable space w/in the machine shielded by it. That's how I read the quotes I mentioned.

Leto never says his journal room is a prototype no-room, he never even says that its in a no-room. The closest is that he says that Ix helped him hide the journals.

Unless I'm missing something the INM weren't such a big deal, they just re-utilized/reintroduced banned tech from before the Jihad It's a given that FLT tech was available BG and that it used Holtzman drives. Devices that were machine controlled, If I'm missing something here or over simplifying (very possible) please tell me.

INM's were definitely not part of the pre-Jihad; the above quotes show that Leto was surprised (pleasantly) that the Ixians had figured out how to build them. There was FTL and Holtzmann before the Guild, but I'm of the belief that they traveled w/out the aide of any prescience (Navigator or computer) to guide them. There are a couple options for what that might mean: shorter jumps leading to much slower travel or staggeringly large losses and one-way trips out into space; seems to me that there would have been both going on before the Guild. Either way, the INM was a new invention.

Is that the quote your referring to? If so that does not apply as INM could function with out the presence of a Guild Navigator that in the old empire the guild choose to have a navigator on each journey as a fail safe fall back protocol is irrelevant. And who's to say how reliable the INM were with out a Navigator or what length each jump was. The Scattering succeeded the Golden Path succeeded what more evidence do you need.

"Leto felt that it might even be possible that the Ixians had achieved a partial success with their machine to amplify the linear prescience of a Guild Navigator. A small blip in the flow of great events might have escaped him. Could they really make such a machine? What a marvel that would be! Purposefully, he refused to use his powers for even the smallest search through this possibility."
GEoD, p. 162

Kobat: "We are attempting to make a mechanical amplifier of... those Guild navigational techniques which presently rely on melange."
Siona: "In this room we call him the Worm," Siona said. "What would your machine do?"
Kobat: "You are aware that the Guild Navigators require the spice before they can see the safe path to traverse?"
Siona: "You would replace the navigators with a machine?"
Kobat: "It may be possible."

Also, I used the first quote because it shows that Leto is surprised by the Ixian development of a navigation machine, which he wouldn't have been if it was something that had already existed. Kind of like how he wasn't surprised about Omnius... (sorry, off track)

In case I missed something elsewhere, is there any evidence or clues that point toward the Old Empire employing navigation machines before Guild navigators?

"Omnius... (sorry, off track)"
Now there's no need for that sort of language, I don't have the time to ponder the implications of your reply atm as I'm getting ready for an appointment and visitors. Leave it with me, it may be that I was wrong. But if the machines were prescient Leto would be unable to see them anyway, tut I've got that backward. Byee for now.