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    Frictionless machinery?

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    Re: Frictionless machinery?

    Postby SadisticCynic » 17 Apr 2009 17:06

    Freakzilla wrote:
    SadisticCynic wrote:Yeah I know that much, what I mean is that something that's scrubbing the air like that seems unlikely to generate a convection current (if it can be called that) as efficient as a fan (or make a current at all). The removal of particulate seems to be pretty much passive.


    Let's just hope that 20,000 years in the future they can make a more efficient processor that doesn't waste so much heat.

    :wink:


    :lol:
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    Re: Frictionless machinery?

    Postby Freakzilla » 17 Apr 2009 18:04

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:Does anyone here understand solid state hard drives? I haven't really looked into it yet, but I'm pretty confused as to how it it would work, magnetic drives make sense to me, this doesn't. Maybe I just need to research it on my own.


    I thought they were just like a big ROM chip. :?


    I forgot about those - I also don't understand those.

    I'm an analog guy, solidstate makes no sense to me.


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    Re: Frictionless machinery?

    Postby trang » 19 Apr 2009 01:15

    SSD's just us flash memory like MP3 players to store data, no moving parts. Capacity of Flash memory has jumped a but load in past couple years to make them cost effective. Speed is supposed to be better, but it depends on the type memory used.

    Basically, smaller, faster, no moving parts. Durabilty, Mean Time before Failure, is yet to be valued, havent had enough time.

    SSD have been around for a while using RAM, problem one was memory flush with no power, so you had to have a battery to keep it going. Flash memory changes all that. Second problem was capacity, memory interfaces limited how muc could be stacked together... 256 meg...512 meg (not gig now) would cost you 15k!

    I have pondered on next upgrades to move the Operating system to an small 40 gig SSD to speed up windows. A Sata Array for the rest of storage and applications.

    Hope that helps.
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    computer definition:

    A solid-state drive (SSD) is a data storage device that uses solid-state memory to store persistent data. An SSD emulates a hard disk drive interface, thus easily replacing it in most applications. An SSD using SRAM or DRAM (instead of flash memory) is often called a RAM-drive.

    The original usage of the term solid-state (from solid-state physics) refers to the use of semiconductor devices rather than electron tubes, but in this context, has been adopted to distinguish solid-state electronics from electromechanical devices as well. With no moving parts, solid-state drives are less fragile than hard disks and are also silent (unless a cooling fan is used); as there are no mechanical delays, they usually employ low access time and latency.
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    Re: Frictionless machinery?

    Postby SadisticCynic » 19 Apr 2009 16:32

    Just finished rereading Destination: Void today. There's a reference to 'near frictionless machinery' in it. Seems it was a recurring feature of Frank's thoughts. Is this kind of idea quite common in Science Fiction?
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    Re: Frictionless machinery?

    Postby Dune Nerd » 19 Apr 2009 17:10

    With current physics as it is (2nd law of thermo) this system is unfeasible. Much like FTL travel; however it is along the same lines since it is a 'future possibility'
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    Re: Frictionless machinery?

    Postby SadisticCynic » 19 Apr 2009 17:23

    The only law I'm familiar with is the 1st. Is there a simple explanation to entropy, everytime I tried to read something about it I couldn't grasp it; how does one measure the 'disorder' of a system? I read about Maxwell's demon awhile back, but it seemed to be more in line with conservation of energy (to my mind).

    Btw, I do realise a system with frictionless moving parts is impossible. I just found the connection between it and no-fields interesting. I wondered if it was a necessary component of the no-field (i.e. no heat or indeed sound produced) or if it was just a cool idea for futuristic mechanical devices. Perhaps some knowledge of entropy (which I believe has relevance to Time) would open me to some new ideas?
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    Re: Frictionless machinery?

    Postby Schu » 26 Apr 2009 02:12

    Some people define the 2nd law in terms of chaos and order, which can be useful - in this definition, chaos is absolutely uniform temperature in the whole universe (the heat death of the universe) and order, well, is just about anything else. The universe tends towards chaos, as do closed systems. The earth does not, because we are getting the benefits of MASSIVE amounts of entropy in the sun, so we don't tend towards chaos here on Earth - not until the sun dies basically.

    Frictionless machinery is a contradiction in terms - it can't be machinery if it's frictionless, otherwise one cog would not move the other. Friction allows one object to exert a force on another "directly".

    Quotation marks for "directly" because it's not as if the objects actually touch - everything is bound together by electromagnetism, and that electromagnetism is what repels other objects when things touch (and cause friction). So the idea of making more electromagnetic fields interact to make "frictionless machinery" is impossible: you're just replacing one type of electromagnetic field with another, there's still going to be friction - and a good thing too - if there wasn't, nothing would move. You can't have the type of friction that allows machinery to work without having the type of friction that causes entropy - they are the same thing.
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    Re: Frictionless machinery?

    Postby SadisticCynic » 26 Apr 2009 09:22

    Nice explanation. So an example of an increase in entropy would be, say, diffusion. When you open a bottle of volatile liquid and it diffuses until it is in uniform concentrations in the room.

    Ok I know why I didn't get it. The uniformity would have seemed to me to be order as opposed to disorder which confused me. Thanks for the elucidation Schu. :)
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    Re: Frictionless machinery?

    Postby Schu » 27 Apr 2009 02:59

    SadisticCynic wrote:Nice explanation. So an example of an increase in entropy would be, say, diffusion. When you open a bottle of volatile liquid and it diffuses until it is in uniform concentrations in the room.

    Ok I know why I didn't get it. The uniformity would have seemed to me to be order as opposed to disorder which confused me. Thanks for the elucidation Schu. :)


    That's a great example of entropy :) And yeah, the uniformity = order thing is pretty confusing, that's what trips most people up. No worries.
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    Re: Frictionless machinery?

    Postby moreh_yeladim » 04 May 2009 14:05

    Everyone go do your reading on Casimir Forces. They let us reduce friction to practically 0.
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    Re: Frictionless machinery?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 04 May 2009 15:08

    moreh_yeladim wrote:Everyone go do your reading on Casimir Forces. They let us reduce friction to practically 0.


    I've read lots on this before, I think electromagnetic would be a much easier way to go, and as long as the machinery was kept in vacuum there shouldn't be any measurable friction.
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    Re: Frictionless machinery?

    Postby Onasander » 08 May 2010 01:55

    The soviets produced a really awesome twopart movie back in the 80s called Kin Dza Dza! The technology was so advanced it looked retarded and broken, but worked well none the less. The gears in the transporter would be a example of a frictionalless gear.... moved for no apparent reason.

    Electromagnetic fields attract elements over time- and the elements causes build up- uneven heat distribution, shorts, and on rare occasions non-linear loads when it starts bridging stuff together. All electronics have this issue- however, most electronics we encounter in our everyday life are pretty much throw away- you have it for a few years- then bye bye.

    Motors lose their insulation over time for carrying charges, generators must fail eventually once the charge gives out. Electronics are hardly frictionless..... especially when you get into complex environments with a lot of complication possible over a great period of time.


    Such a machine would require a significant amount of energy to maintain itself- would have to be non-electronic (it was very, very, very exacting- they spent for the ling term- the engineers will plan for the long term- but it also possessed a unpredictable micro-environment they couldn't really guess what it would do in any given circumstance. Most importantly, it's designed to be used, and abused. A electromagnetic field can be detected very easily- and I notice Dune as a whole has little outward need for electricity (might explain the very late discovery of how to fold space- our electronic gadgets might of prevented it all along)- it's gonna stand out like a sore thumb to any search party with half the mind to look for one- or grandpa with a metal detector looking for some gold coins with a really good detector.)

    My figuring is it was powered by kinetic forces from seismology, and was therefore NOT perpetual motion.... but would last seemingly forever none the less. If the gear parts in the machine were balanced just right, and propelled initially- I could conceivably see this being exploited by a very, very knowledgeable society with way too much money to spend to build a most perfect kinetic energy machine that also functioned as a most rudimentary geometric calculator for effecting other such machines- any lost of energy could very well be regained from the vibrations if calibrated to be exact enough. I'm pretty much thinking of a kinetic laser machine- that can calculate all shifts and changes in the local geology, and adapt.... something drastic and the illusion goes bye-bye- but something small and it adjusts. Just gotta keep your eye on the second law of thermodynamics. It being frictionless and still powered- and it's tasking, despite not being a true thinking machine- is a strong indicator it was powered by vibrations- only way I can figure it working not just machine wise- but also function.

    two last notes before I go- the no room wouldn't be in a vacuum- why on earth would the harks want a device capable of killing everyone inside of it? I have strong doubts this thing was even airtight- a complex array of primary, secondary, and who knows how many air tunnels perhaps- maybe even the potential for algae based airscrubbers (if they were smart enough to remember to seed it when rushing to it in a oh shit moment of flight).

    Second- yes- the microclimate in a kinetic system would attract dust and decay as well- but the machines would be only very slightly effected by it (unless the roof collapsed), and should be able to re-zero as time goes by, adjusting. I am thinking of gears sufficiently far apart never to touch. I also would wonder if they are made of metal..... we have a certain fascination with steel, copper, and aluminum in playing with electricity- for very minute, exacting calculations for seismological balancing acts, and absorbing the force for energy output of some type- they might of went in a direction that would require it to be as non-conductive as possible- so as not to be influenced easily by static electricity or electromagnetic forces in general..... the electromagnetic force isn't the only one out there known even in Frank's time.... we have a wide array- and the basic theory I am talking about isn't much more complex than modern, cutting edge watch making using kinetic energy- though the wrist watch versions never endeavor to be frictionless.

    Electricity is bad- shorts happen..... weird crap happens all too often- just ask anyone who's ever worked installing fire alarms- codes from multiple sources, like the NEC or NFPA..... and we still set them off all the time from nothing. They are obvious when they are not working- cause they are loud (or not loud when they really, really need to be). I don't think a endeavor as complex as this Hark Ground Central for Mayhem and Chaos is going to skimp and go the electric route on it's most essential node of defense- hiding long term..... most nuclear silos I've been in (yes, I've been in a few decommissioned ones) had back-up, non electrical.




    One last further note- I am guessing a high possibility a considerable part of the facility is partially built like the NSA Headquarters- so no electromagnetic signal, or heat signal gets out in the first place- but then you have to figure in the amount of workmen actually involved in it's construction..... I am certain it was done only partially if even at all..... wouldn't be surprised if it was just bare rock walls carved from the hillside..... they have a need to keep signals from going up- and immediately out near the entrance- so any stray signal someone catches will always be confusing and non-intuitive, and not be easily traced..... how this would effect the No-Rooms functions is a question though- and it might actually prohibit it's range.... and furthermore make it more apparent something was indeed there- I think Leto would of noticed some electromagnetic proof, bunker shells shaped construction going on, even if the No-Room was activated before the rest of the materials were brought in..... this would of been like a signal flair going off to Leto to look here..... thus probably why they found the place in the first place. This is going to be a room of the ultimate paranoia- and in this state of absolute second guessing, compromises MUST be made- I highly suspect they did something really stupid like this that fucked up and caused weaknesses in other systems that could be exploited by a keen predator/observer looking for such signatures.
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    Re: Frictionless machinery?

    Postby TheDukester » 08 May 2010 16:11

    :hand:

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    Re: Frictionless machinery?

    Postby lotek » 08 May 2010 17:28

    Frictionless machinery?

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    Re: Frictionless machinery?

    Postby merkin muffley » 08 May 2010 19:27

    TheDukester wrote::hand:

    Do not want.


    It's like diarrhea.

    You know, this isn't like DuneNovels, there are other people actually using this forum. Can he hear me?
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    Re: Frictionless machinery?

    Postby SandRider » 09 May 2010 01:35

    merkin muffley wrote:
    You know, this isn't like DuneNovels, there are other people actually using this forum.


    Za-Za-ZING !!

    merkin get cookie:

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    Re: Frictionless machinery?

    Postby Kensai » 26 Jun 2010 13:27

    Liguid metal set in motion by currents maybe?
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    Re: Frictionless machinery?

    Postby Freakzilla » 26 Jun 2010 13:33

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    Re: Frictionless machinery?

    Postby reverendmotherQ. » 13 Oct 2010 19:32

    Freakzilla wrote:Vimanas

    "These mercury vortex generators could have been used in various types of vimanas."

    Now thats a thought!
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    Re: Frictionless machinery?

    Postby leagued » 10 Feb 2013 19:38

    To be absolutely frictionless you also have to eliminate the zero-point energry friction caused by all those sub-atomic particles popping into and out of existence all the time in the quantum vacuum. Otherwise, anything that moves encounters some form of resistance to its motion. There has been some speculation that the quantum flotsam is the source of inertia but I'm not sure that idea got a lot of traction (no pun intended).
    Anyway; frictionless machinery is, with our current understanding of physics, strictly PFM (pure fucking magic) or, to put it another way: Holtzman application.
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    Re: Frictionless machinery?

    Postby Freakzilla » 11 Feb 2013 08:23

    It could be just some in-universe hyperbole. It might not be absolutely frictionless but pretty damned close.
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    Re: Frictionless machinery?

    Postby leagued » 11 Feb 2013 08:33

    Entirely reasonable. Its hardly the only thing that would violate our understanding of physics in the Chronicle though either. Pretty much everything we know about Holtzman is just straight Asimov-level-tech-that-is-indistinguishable-from-magic.
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    Re: Frictionless machinery?

    Postby xcalibur » 10 Apr 2016 10:00

    I'd assume it used Holzmann fields in place of ball bearings, or something similar.

    also, it doesn't necessarily have to be perfectly frictionless, it could be effectively frictionless from an engineering standpoint for millennia (grinding down in geological timescales).
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