Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?


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Sandwurm88
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Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by Sandwurm88 »

Okay, so I have been playing drums for about a year. And this Christmas is coming up, and I will probably have an opportunity to get a new piece in my set.

So far I have the typical beginner's set:

22x14 Bass drum with pedal
16x16 Floor Tom
5x14 Snare Drum
9x13 Rack Tom
10x14 Rack Tom
and
13'' Hi-Hats
16'' Crash Cymbal
20" Ride Cymbal

I want to add one of the following
18'' Crash Cymbal with a stand
or
16x18 Floor Tom

I play mostly rock, and I looked online and each cost about equal. Any experienced drummers or rock-enthusiasists who could tell me which of these two would be more beneficial to have in a set?
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Re: Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by SadisticCynic »

I am by no means an experienced drummer, so I can just tell how I would think about it:

The choice will strongly depend on what will give your playing a better feel. For me, for example, the cymbal would be the immediate choice because I really like the variety of sounds and textures you can develop with a good set of cymbals and I am not so fussed about my toms.

A new piece of equipment will not make you a better drummer. The point of new equipment is to expand your playing beyond what you have developed and give it a new flavour. Basically, what I think you should ask yourself is, which do you think will give you a better sonic range and improve your groove? Which of the choices will fit in better with the style you are developing?

There's probably a couple of other people might be able to give you more useful advice.
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Sandwurm88
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Re: Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by Sandwurm88 »

Thanks for the advice. Yeah, most people tell me another piece of equipment beyond the most important stuff won't be used that much, and obviously won't make you better. Many songs only use snare, hi-hat, ride, and bass, if that, so an extra tom or crash won't do that much more. I think more sonic range is probably more what I'm going for. Anyone else got anything?
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Re: Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

As an audio engineer and long time metalhead:

I'd go for the cymbal as well, though personally I'd go with a nice mid sized china rather than another crash, totally your call though. Chinas add an explosive sound with very short sustain and faster decay. In the context of a song where you're working within a wall of distorted guitars, nothing is better for accenting agressive hits than a snare and china hit at once - crash cymbals sound explosive when you're playing, because you're 2 feet away from them, but the crowd hears them as a soft wash most of the time, chinas cut through the mix better.

You've already got three toms, most of the drummers I work with just have two, and I can tell you that a second floor tom is generally under-used and even if drummers do use it, unless it's a solo drum section it's very hard to distinguish from just one floor tom. Any riffs you think would sound nice with two floor toms would almost certainly actually sound better (clearer) played on the single floor tom and lower rack tom instead.

Cymbals on the other hand are a joy to work with. Cymbals and the snare are really what a drummer's signature sound comes from, the rest of the kit is pretty much interchangable (though not every drummer will accept this!).
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Re: Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by inhuien »

As someone who's been a bassist for about 25 years, professional for many years, with a lot of experience I agree 100% with AToE. An extra floor tom would be a waste of money, if you're really not in favour of going for an extra cymbal think of upgrading a piece of existing kit such as your bass pedal or hi-hat stand.

I don't know what you listen to, and this may be old news, check out how amazingly powerful a simple kit can sound on some of Steve Albini's recordings.
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Re: Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by TheDukester »

Sole Man wrote:Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?
Yes.

Do less drugs.

Every drummer should heed that advice.
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Re: Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by inhuien »

TheDukester wrote:
Sole Man wrote:Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?
Yes.

Do less drugs.

Every drummer should heed that advice.
Tell that to bongo players. :)
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Re: Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by Omphalos »

TheDukester wrote:
Sole Man wrote:Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?
Yes.

Do less drugs.

Every drummer should heed that advice.
And try not to choke on anyone else's vomit. Choking on your own is gross enough.
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Re: Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by SadisticCynic »

A Thing of Eternity wrote:As an audio engineer and long time metalhead:

I'd go for the cymbal as well, though personally I'd go with a nice mid sized china rather than another crash, totally your call though. Chinas add an explosive sound with very short sustain and faster decay. In the context of a song where you're working within a wall of distorted guitars, nothing is better for accenting agressive hits than a snare and china hit at once - crash cymbals sound explosive when you're playing, because you're 2 feet away from them, but the crowd hears them as a soft wash most of the time, chinas cut through the mix better.

You've already got three toms, most of the drummers I work with just have two, and I can tell you that a second floor tom is generally under-used and even if drummers do use it, unless it's a solo drum section it's very hard to distinguish from just one floor tom. Any riffs you think would sound nice with two floor toms would almost certainly actually sound better (clearer) played on the single floor tom and lower rack tom instead.

Cymbals on the other hand are a joy to work with. Cymbals and the snare are really what a drummer's signature sound comes from, the rest of the kit is pretty much interchangable (though not every drummer will accept this!).
You know, I had a feeling you'd get across what I was trying to say much better than I did. :)

I've noticed that the drummers that I really like are really tasteful with their cymbals, and have a good appreciation for the sounds you can get just out of a good set of hi-hats.

Edit: I mean your whole post by the way, I just happen to like the bolded part.
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Re: Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by Freakzilla »

A big drum set is impressive but a big sound coming from a basic set is more impressive.
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Re: Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by SadisticCynic »

How to play drums properly:



(Granted, he has a large kit, but can you imagine how dull that song would have been without him?)
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Re: Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

There's nothing wrong with a huge kit, some styles of music seem to require it in fact, but it's just something I've noticed that when adding toms, a drummer is better off adding more high pitched ones that actually can be heard in the mix rather than another floor tom that sounds like nothing.

I love drummers who play simple 4 piece kits with all the drums laid flat, it just looks spectacular and you can actually see them play (not hidden behind two big rack toms), but some songs do just call for some semi-melodic tom work, which needs multiple high toms or it just doesn't work.

Hats are awesome as well, and often really neglected in a drummer's quest to build up their dream kit. 90% of the time I prefer smaller hats, especially ones designed for studio use - which means they have shorter sustain and faster decay, so they're clearer and drier (because many engineers like to add a little reverb to them, and if they're already big and washy sounding it'd just be a mess). But I'm pretty biased - I like all drums to be pretty loud in the mix, and I like cymbals to sound full range and more on the dry side.
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Re: Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

Also, just wanted to add - though I fight for drummers to use smaller kits (less mics for me to buy/bring since I generally mic both the top and the bottom of snares and toms), it does bug me when people seem to assume that drummers who play smaller kits are somehow better than those who play big ones.

I've heard people say "so and so is the best, he can play ANY song on a tiny kit" - well DUH. Drums don't have to be "in tune" with the song, because their predominantly dissonant rather than melodic, so a drummer can hit whatever they want whenever they want, there's no "notes" to worry about. So of course a song can be played on a small kit. (Though yes, some great drummers can make a small kit sound a little bigger than it is, but face it, no drummer on earth can make a four piece with 1 crash and 1 ride sound like Neil Pert, it's just impossible) By this logic, the very best drummer in the world is one that just plays a snare drum (though some of those military snare drummers do blow my mind).

Some people think that giant kits are just compensation for a drummer being weak. To that I say, let's see what a 12 year old Tony Royster Jr has to say about that:

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Re: Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

Damnit, one more thing to say.

About getting a cymbal rather than a tom - think about how much mileage you get out of a cymbal vs a tom (I don't mean lifespan, obviously cymbals tend to die young). You hit floor toms pretty rarely in a song, now if you add a second one that probably means it'll only get hit half as much as you hit the one you have now.

Now, think about how many hits per song that new cymbal would get - hundreds probably.
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Re: Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by Shaitan »

Out of all the classic "rock band" instruments, full-kit drumming is probably my weakest, even though I pride myself on being able to play almost any part of a given song.

My advice pretty much peters out at "More Cowbell."

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Re: Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by inhuien »

Shaitan wrote:even though I pride myself on being able to play almost any part of a given song.
Me too, but only on beat at a time. :)
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Re: Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by SadisticCynic »

Have to agree with Thing on the higher-pitched toms. Much more fun to play on I think, and they're really good for single hit fills.
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Re: Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by Eyes High »

Shaitan wrote:Out of all the classic "rock band" instruments, full-kit drumming is probably my weakest, even though I pride myself on being able to play almost any part of a given song.

My advice pretty much peters out at "More Cowbell."

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I was wondering who would be the one to bring that line in. :lol:
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Re: Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

Eyes High wrote:
Shaitan wrote:Out of all the classic "rock band" instruments, full-kit drumming is probably my weakest, even though I pride myself on being able to play almost any part of a given song.

My advice pretty much peters out at "More Cowbell."

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I was wondering who would be the one to bring that line in. :lol:
It's pretty good advice really. :D
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Re: Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by Sandwurm88 »

Thanks for the advice, especially AToE. That kid really makes use of the double bass drum pedal. I have a friend who has a double bass drum set, both the same size, with 3 rack toms, 2 floor toms, 2 crashes, hi-hats, ride, china, snare, splash, the whole nine yards, and I was like "Why not just get a double bass drum pedal?". I've been listening to some music that I like, and noticing the nicer effect that a second crash has, you can hit them alternating or at the same time, whatever. And it's definitely true, AToE, in the few drummers who use two floor toms, as well as two crashes, such as Green Day and Red Hot Chili Peppers, that any given one of the crashes gets more hits in the song than both floor toms, and probably all of the toms combined... As for smaller rack toms sounding better than floors, that seems to me a matter of personal preference in types of music, but I can see what you mean with the 18'' floor just sounding too much like the bass drum and getting drowned out.

I know you're a kind of rocker who has a healthy distain for popular rock music, but I think the intro to the song 86 (and Longview) by Green Day makes good use of an 18 and 16 inch floor tom, just IMO. However, beyond the first ten seconds I don't think he uses either of them that much.

And before I get blasted for liking Green Day, sorry! I listen to Primus as well, that usually settles people who hate pop-rock down! And I also enjoy The Beatles and Zeppelin!

What do you think about the two floor toms in those two songs, AToE?

(Oh yeah, and another thing, I listened to some China cymbal solos on youtube, all played upside down. Once again, opinion here, but it sounds a bit too trash can lid to me, even the really nice ones. I can see the appeal because it definitely cuts into the music more than anything in the set, even a loud snare, but it seems like more of a metal/ grungy thing to me, and a two crash set-up would be more versatile, whereas you might be struggling to fit the China in enough to justify having it in a set...much like the 18'' floor tom. Slayer uses it in Raining Blood, no?)
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Re: Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by Sandwurm88 »

By the way, Shaitan, I play bass (seven years) as well as drums (almost one year). And I guess by association I can do all the major chords on guitar and a few riffs like Crazy Train, and the tapping part of Eruption which is pretty hard for a straight-up bassist to learn with no prior regular guitar experience...:S
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Re: Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

Oh I'm totally not saying hgh toms are better than low ones, just more useful. In a live situation there's simply no way the crowd will hear the difference between the two unless there's no guitars playing. Studio is a totally different animal than live. I listen to lots of stuff that makes use of multiple low toms, but live it's just a waste of time unless you've got a half million dollar PA system, excellent sound engineer, and roadies to carry all your extra shit!

And yeah, with kicks you're better off with just a double pedal for sure rather than 2 kicks.

EDIT: Whoops, missed a bunch of stuff. Didn't have time to check out those songs, but I'm sure the second floor tom sounds great on them. I'm also sure that at a hall show both toms would equally sound like "whub whub whub"! I'm not jaded, just practical!

If you don't dig china's that's cool. They come in a wide variety of flavours from extra trashy to almost not-trashy, but yes, they're generally trashy! Check a few out in person at a music shop some time though, you might be surprised (though I will totally agree that they're often more at home in heavier styles of music, but they can be used well in other genres as well).
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Re: Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by SadisticCynic »

(I meant to point out, I'm so jealous of Royster's upstroke/downstroke cymbal striking!)
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Re: Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by Shaitan »

Sandwurm88 wrote:By the way, Shaitan, I play bass (seven years) as well as drums (almost one year). And I guess by association I can do all the major chords on guitar and a few riffs like Crazy Train, and the tapping part of Eruption which is pretty hard for a straight-up bassist to learn with no prior regular guitar experience...:S
Very cool....yeah, I learned guitar first when I was young on a very challenging-to-play Gibson acoustic with a super narrow neck (I have huge hands) and that really made electric guitars, four-string bass, etc. waaaaaay easier once I started branching out. One of my favorite things is to sing rock ballads (Alice In Chains' "Nutshell" and "Rooster" are favorites) for my son while playing the rhythm parts on a 12-string. Almost as much fun as getting an entire stadium of 5,000+ people so worked up that the men are weeping tears of awe and the women are flashing you that look that says "after your set is done my three friends and I are SO having your babies." 8)

I'm not exactly horrible on a set of drums if I have something to work with, in fact I'd like to think I make a damn decent second drummer (a lot of bands I've been in like really "big" sound and so have multiple of almost every instrument in every song, including vocalists), and a passable primary if need be -- I can hold a beat pretty well, I just don't have the muscle memory to start improvising in the middle of a solo or something the way I can on other instruments, and still manage to hold the beat perfectly without screwing up the improvisation.

Mostly I craft my percussion parts (even in some live songs) with synthesizers and computers, but there's no substitute for the real thing.
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Re: Any Drummers Here Who Could Help Me With Something?

Post by Sandwurm88 »

So I got the cymbal. yeah. I'm also thinking about using some money I got to get the floor tom, but maybe getting a different type of wood so it will sound more different. My main set is all basswood which is pretty cheap, and the two woods of choice are birch for recording and maple for everything else, so I was thinking one of those.
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