a bit of drama


Moderators: Freakzilla, ᴶᵛᵀᴬ, Omphalos

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14492
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: A continuing state of irritation
Contact:

Re: a bit of drama

Post by SandChigger »

Quite.

Of course, if and when I return to the States for good, I plan to get a license and a handgun. Lunatic sister on the loose, might have to put her down if she comes after me, ya know! :P
User avatar
Eyes High
Patience Personified
Posts: 2322
Joined: 22 Jul 2008 15:32
Location: between the worlds of men and make believe

Re: a bit of drama

Post by Eyes High »

yeah gun control discussions are in the politics thread I think, but my question is...

Wouldn't it have just been easier for her to take him to court?

If it was a gift...then not her property to take.

If, like you said, it was bought with the agreement that he would pay her back...then he should have been man enough to make an arrangement with her about a payment that he could afford so she would know that he wasn't going to stiff her.

but as we all know, people can be idiots no matter where they live, especially when ex-lovers are involved. :crazy:
What fear is there in the night?
Nothing, but that which is in our own imaginations.
Serkanner
Administrator
Posts: 2974
Joined: 17 Feb 2008 18:44
Location: Den Haag - The Netherlands

Re: a bit of drama

Post by Serkanner »

SandChigger wrote:Quite.

Of course, if and when I return to the States for good, I plan to get a license and a handgun. Lunatic sister on the loose, might have to put her down if she comes after me, ya know! :P
I didn't know Hypatia was your sister. Learn something new every day. :mrgreen:
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."
User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14492
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: A continuing state of irritation
Contact:

Re: a bit of drama

Post by SandChigger »

Eeeeeew. :puke:

(Damn. I would actually have to sit down and think long and long to decide which would be worse. :shock: )
User avatar
SandRider
Watermaster
Posts: 6163
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
Location: In the back of your mind. Always.
Contact:

Re: a bit of drama

Post by SandRider »

didn't intend to turn this towards gun-control & all, just takin' an easy shot @ the english

y'all know my stand on handguns - I think they should be illegal in america, but that will never, ever happen
and not worth talking about - and the Navy Colt is a 1859 repro and could technically be made to fire, but
I ain't takin the time - it's just a prop; the shotgun, now, that's just for skunks & other varmits (revenuers &etc)

used to have a few deer rifles, but I've never been much of a hunter - the baseball bat and/or cricket bat
and/or cavalry sabre is a good idea - I guess I'm just still not used to the idea of allowing other people
to physically threaten and intimidate - I think this is the reason why thugs have become emboldened; the
conventional wisdom has it that your property is not worth your life - I don't give a shit about the property,
but my stubborn pride won't allow much fuckin' with .... if you think you're man enough to try to bully me,
you'll probably just have to prove that ... (and, oh yeah, I've my own ass whupped a few times behind that,
which I ain't mad about - just proved they were man enough to fuck with me & did ...)
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008
Lundse
Posts: 524
Joined: 01 Jul 2008 11:36
Location: Århus, Denmark

Re: a bit of drama

Post by Lundse »

smugetsu wrote:Some criminals will bring a gun whether the home owner has one or not. I love the peace-loving attitude that if you just mind your own business nobody will hurt you. "If I don't have a gun, the people that come to rob my house won't bring one." Maybe I'm just cynical, bonkers, or both. Maybe things are different on this side of the pond (gun control a lot less strict, etc) but here that logic just won't fly.
Hm... Logic 'flies', I believe, regardless of geography. And I am not claiming no criminal will ever bring a weapon, nor that he would never use it, if homeowners did not have guns. But if you live in Denmark, where only hunters have locked-away guns, you know you won't need it in the first place, and you certainly do not have to do more than brandish it to get results. And there is no, repeat: no, reason to shoot first if you break in anywhere.

My point makes no sense on a house-by-house-basis, but if you consider the societal assumptions (will there be a gun in this house?) home robbers' attitudes will obviously be different. I am not claiming any kind of certainty, of course - I am just nodding towards the statistics (compare Denmark with US for home invasions resulting in a wrongful death, for instance).
Olympos wrote:I will make the argument here that it is not the only thing that was taken, and something that I think is at the philosophical root of this disagreement about whether physical force to prevent entry would have been appropriate.
I certainly agree that the sanctity of one's home is also something worth protecting in itself, and even i the computer was rightfully the gals', this is exactly what made her and her friends' actions wrong anyway. Only the most rabidly commun(al)ists would feel differently, I think. But I am not willing to kill, or risk injury to myself or others, to defend my own sensibilities. And I think your feeling that 'my home is my castle' will feel quite violated by the bloodstain in the carpet, even if you did manage to only main the intruder and come out on top.


Sorry to wax political, it just sort of happened... :-)
I do respect others opinion on the matter, and even though I have to illusions I will convert anyone, I think one should discuss politics - otherwise democracy just becomes an empty dictatorship of the majority. And though my basic position is unchanged, I have learned about nuances and ways of thinking in the opposite viewpoint - from internet discussions, no less (also on gun control).

And for full disclosure: my own home is protected by an African throwing spear, a WWII bayonet, my grandfathers walking stick, a Javanese Kris-knife and a 10 pound bible (for bludgeoning).
User avatar
inhuien
Posts: 3638
Joined: 09 Feb 2008 05:03

Re: a bit of drama

Post by inhuien »

I think one should discuss politics - otherwise democracy just becomes an empty dictatorship of the majority.
Very good point, and re homestead artillery I've an old wooden axe or a 82 full scale Tokia J-bass as somepeeps insist on calling it.
User avatar
chanilover
Posts: 1644
Joined: 18 Feb 2008 08:29

Re: a bit of drama

Post by chanilover »

Olympos wrote:
smugetsu wrote:I'm just saying that I'm glad it worked out the way it did. Lotek (or anyone else, for the that matter) didn't get injured, and all they took was what (arguably) belonged to the gal.
I will make the argument here that it is not the only thing that was taken, and something that I think is at the philosophical root of this disagreement about whether physical force to prevent entry would have been appropriate.

Lotek also lost, or had taken, the feeling of security in one's own home. Either a person's home is their castle, or the commune's property is anyone's to access whenever they want. I think there is much more of a tendency in America to be Gandalf at the door when strangers try to bully their way in: You shall not pass!
That's a really famous misquote, it's "The house to everyone is to him as his castle and fortress". It comes from Semayne's Case in 1604, so the American idea that a person should be able to use force to defend his home against intruders is just another old principle of English common law which has developed in a different way in the UK and and US since all that tea was chucked in the harbour.

It goes back even further than that, there were frequent acquittals of homeowners who killed intruders up to 1348, before things started getting a bit more confused. The amount of force you can use against a burglar is a hot topic in the UK at the moment, with people saying there should be more clarity in the law so homwownders know where they stand. We've sacrificed certainty for flexibility in the UK, and the basic rule is you can use as much force as is "reasonable",and it's down the the jury to decide if the force was reasonable or not. This includes whether or not it would be reasonable to use a gun against a burglar.
"You and your buddies and that b*tch Mandy are nothing but a gang of lying, socially maladjusted losers." - St Hypatia of Arrakeen.
Image
Image
User avatar
SandRider
Watermaster
Posts: 6163
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
Location: In the back of your mind. Always.
Contact:

Re: a bit of drama

Post by SandRider »

good points - in Texas, if you shoot an "intruder" in your yard, you better make damn sure to drag
him into the house, or face an aggravated assault charge, or manslaugher to murder 2 if he dies ....
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008
Serkanner
Administrator
Posts: 2974
Joined: 17 Feb 2008 18:44
Location: Den Haag - The Netherlands

Re: a bit of drama

Post by Serkanner »

SandRider wrote:good points - in Texas, if you shoot an "intruder" in your yard, you better make damn sure to drag
him into the house, or face an aggravated assault charge, or manslaugher to murder 2 if he dies ....
Good thing I don't have a garden ... or a gun... or any type of weapon for that matter.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."
User avatar
smugetsu
Posts: 264
Joined: 25 May 2009 12:24
Location: Lurking somewhere out there

Re: a bit of drama

Post by smugetsu »

SandRider wrote:good points - in Texas, if you shoot an "intruder" in your yard, you better make damn sure to drag
him into the house, or face an aggravated assault charge, or manslaugher to murder 2 if he dies ....
I will concede the point (from a robber/burglars' perspective) that I'd be ten times more likely to bring and a gun (and use it) if I knew for a fact the homeowner kept one.

In Kansas (yes, the same backward place that legislatively denies evolution as a possibility...sigh) the law has recently changed. In olden times (you know, a year ago) a homeowner actually had to retreat from a burglar, only using lethal force if they were cornered. Meaning, if they're in your yard or living room, you can't do anything about it. The same went for motor vehicles- you were expected to surrender- not fight back.

However, if someone busts down your front door, you no longer need to retreat. You can stand and (assuming you are in mortal danger) fight back. Likewise if someone attempts to carjack you.

Despite being very pro-2nd amendment, the change to the law is somewhat scary. There are many people who don't consider the responsibility of owning a gun, and who will shoot anything that moves on sight. These are the people that accidentally shoot their spouse or children because they get gun-happy and make a mistake.
Image
User avatar
Omphalos
Inglorious Bastard
Posts: 6677
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 11:07
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Re: a bit of drama

Post by Omphalos »

Rules on defense of property differ from state to state, and there are a number of federal cases on point, some USSC. From state to state the majority opinion is that you are entitled in self defense to use proportionate force. For example, if someone comes at you with fists, you cannot gun them down. But if someone comes at you with a knife, you may use a gun.

Defense of property is a bit different. If you don't reasonably believe you are at risk of harm, you can try to stop the thief, but cannot kill them. This includes cases where, for example, a car jacker takes your ride. Some states have convicted car owners who kill car jackers. Some others have let them off if they kill a car jacker when an infant is in the car.

Breaking and entering is entirely different, because it often happens at night (some statutes require a nighttime intrusion). Jurys will listen to homeowners who defend themselves with lethal force where they say that they woke up in the middle of the night, feared for the safety of their family, and gunned down someone who had broken in. Some courts have even let people off where the person who broke in merely got the wrong address (eg, an innocent mistake). Still other states allow for a killing within the curtilage of the house (the area immediately around the outside of the house), while others require that the breaker be fully inside the house. Ive heard of people convicted where the thief had his entire body in the window, but one leg still outside, for that reason alone (the rationale is that a sleepy homeonwer might have killed someone who was leaving instead of entering, and thus was not reasonably in fear of his life or the lives of his family.

Keep in mind that there also may be a gun crime here, especially within the boarders of a city. Even if a killing is justified, an owner can be charged with owning or using an illegal weapon. London probably has some ordinances on that. Washington DC, where I lived for 30 or so years, does, and regularly convicted homeowners confronted with nighttime thieves for owning illegal firearms. Id also want to know what the British statute on breaking and entering says. In this case the criminals could argue that Lotek let them in, depending on how the statute is written. More, if the statute requires that the offense happen at night, then the violation is probably some sort of trespass only, which never allows for lethal force.
Image

The New & Improved Book Review Blog

Goodnight Golden Path!
User avatar
Olympos
Posts: 56
Joined: 15 Feb 2010 20:07
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: a bit of drama

Post by Olympos »

I live in Washington State, which despite being pretty far to the 'left' by American standards is a 'shall issue' concealed carry state (give me the permit unless you have a reason not to, rather than require me to show a reason I want it) and a state where I may use deadly force against a burglar in my home without any showing of a 'reasonable belief' that they intended to use deadly force. Or you could say that our standard for reasonable belief is 'they were willing to force their way into my home while I was there, they are probably not here to sell me Girl Scout cookies.' The last person I feel obligated to give the 'benefit of the doubt' is a criminal breaking into my home.

As to comparative crime rates between nations (or U.S. states) and the attempt to link them to gun laws, I find this generally to be a fruitless effort. Far more complex social issues relate to violent crime rates and the political environment that creates whatever gun laws a society has. America is a violent society (relatively speaking, for Western nations) for a host of reasons, but the presence of one particular tool or another does not seem to be a compelling reason to me.

Even if you could wave a magic wand and ban the sale of all weapons more complex than single-shot bird guns tomorrow (and this is politically untenable here), a gun is not a particularly challenging tool to make. Prohibition of these tools here would probably have the same lovely consequence of creating a lucrative black market for them that prohibition of alcohol once did, and prohibition of drugs does today. It would not address the underlying causes of violence, just create new profit opportunities for those capitalizing on it.
All rebels are closet aristocrats.

Leto Atreides II
User avatar
Omphalos
Inglorious Bastard
Posts: 6677
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 11:07
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Re: a bit of drama

Post by Omphalos »

About 70% of the legal work I do is in Washington State, the rest being divided up among Oregon, Hawaii, California and a few others. Just to be clear, very few (if any) states require you have to have a reasonable belief that you will be harmed when someone breaks into your house at night. I agree with that; I'd have little incentive to spare the life of some asshole who broke into my house at night.

And just FYI, Washington is pretty damn liberal, despite the few examples contrary. And with the state Supreme Court you have now, it will gradually get more and more liberal.
Image

The New & Improved Book Review Blog

Goodnight Golden Path!
User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14492
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: A continuing state of irritation
Contact:

Re: a bit of drama

Post by SandChigger »

smugetsu wrote:There are many people who don't consider the responsibility of owning a gun, and who will shoot anything that moves on sight. These are the people that accidentally shoot their spouse or children because they get gun-happy and make a mistake.
Shoot the spouse, no more stupid-gene-bearing children. (At least, until the next spouse, of course.) Shoot the children, weed the gene pool.

Sorry, I'm not seeing the downside here. ;)
User avatar
Olympos
Posts: 56
Joined: 15 Feb 2010 20:07
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: a bit of drama

Post by Olympos »

Omphalos wrote:About 70% of the legal work I do is in Washington State, the rest being divided up among Oregon, Hawaii, California and a few others. Just to be clear, very few (if any) states require you have to have a reasonable belief that you will be harmed when someone breaks into your house at night. I agree with that; I'd have little incentive to spare the life of some asshole who broke into my house at night.

And just FYI, Washington is pretty damn liberal, despite the few examples contrary. And with the state Supreme Court you have now, it will gradually get more and more liberal.
Seattle is very liberal, which balances out the rest of the state, which is not.
All rebels are closet aristocrats.

Leto Atreides II
User avatar
Omphalos
Inglorious Bastard
Posts: 6677
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 11:07
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Re: a bit of drama

Post by Omphalos »

Olympos wrote:
Omphalos wrote:About 70% of the legal work I do is in Washington State, the rest being divided up among Oregon, Hawaii, California and a few others. Just to be clear, very few (if any) states require you have to have a reasonable belief that you will be harmed when someone breaks into your house at night. I agree with that; I'd have little incentive to spare the life of some asshole who broke into my house at night.

And just FYI, Washington is pretty damn liberal, despite the few examples contrary. And with the state Supreme Court you have now, it will gradually get more and more liberal.
Seattle is very liberal, which balances out the rest of the state, which is not.
That's the common belief. Places like Ferry, Okanagon, Pond Orille, and others on the east are very conservative. But places like Vancouver, and about half the counties between Blaine and Clarke County along I-5, especially Pierce County, are pretty liberal too. The jurys I draw in Pierce County are just insane, nutty liberal. Way too far to the left. In fact, there is an annually published list of "judicial hellholes." Ten counties you just don't want to be in. I hear Pierce is in the running to make that list. Sno County gets more and more liberal ever day. Whatcom too. Its actually shocking how much they have both changed in the last five to ten years.
Image

The New & Improved Book Review Blog

Goodnight Golden Path!
User avatar
SandRider
Watermaster
Posts: 6163
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
Location: In the back of your mind. Always.
Contact:

Re: a bit of drama

Post by SandRider »

eastern Washington's full of Mormon rednecks in big ol' trucks & rodeos ....
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008
User avatar
Omphalos
Inglorious Bastard
Posts: 6677
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 11:07
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Re: a bit of drama

Post by Omphalos »

Personally I love hanging out in Spokane and Coeur d'Alene. Probably going back in a few months.
Image

The New & Improved Book Review Blog

Goodnight Golden Path!
User avatar
TheDukester
Posts: 3808
Joined: 20 Jun 2008 13:44
Location: Operation Enduring Bacon

Re: a bit of drama

Post by TheDukester »

Ah, the Palouse ...

(Not much more to add. Just had an urge to say "Palouse")
"Anything I write will be remembered and listed in bibliographies on Dune for several hundred years ..." — some delusional halfwit troll.
User avatar
Snowball
Posts: 61
Joined: 19 Jan 2010 23:38

Re: a bit of drama

Post by Snowball »

It's a shame that when I'm a crazy old cracker I might not be able to wave my 12 gauge at the pesky kids trampin' on my yard...

The only other things I have to look forward to when I'm old is not getting boners and then eventually dying! This does not please me.

Let them eat lead! *insert every smiley with guns in it*
~oneeyedunicornhunter~
User avatar
Olympos
Posts: 56
Joined: 15 Feb 2010 20:07
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: a bit of drama

Post by Olympos »

TheDukester wrote:Ah, the Palouse ...

(Not much more to add. Just had an urge to say "Palouse")
From the point of view of admittedly privileged white male technocrats such as Randy Waterhouse and his ancestors, the Palouse was like one big live-in laboratory for nonlinear aerodynamics and chaos theory. Not much was alive there, and so one's observations were not forever being clouded by trees, flowers, fauna, and the ploddingly linear and rational endeavors of humans. The Cascades blocked any of those warm, moist, refreshing Pacific breezes, harvesting their moisture to carpet ski areas for dewy-skinned Seattleites, and diverting what remained north to Vancouver or south to Portland. Consequently the Palouse had to get its air shipped down in bulk from the Yukon and British Columbia. It flowed across the blasted volcanic scab land of central Washington in (Randy supposed) a more or less continuous laminar sheet that, when it hit the rolling Palouse country, ramified into a vast system of floods, rivers and rivulets diverging around the bald swelling hills and recomining in the sere declivities. But it never recombined exactly the way it was before. The hills had thrown entropy into the system. Like a handful of nickels in a batch of bread dough this could be kneaded from place to place but never removed. The entropy manifested itself as swirls and violent gusts and ephemeral vortices. All of these things were clearly visible, because all summer the air was full of dust or smoke, and all winter it was full of windblown snow.
Neal Stephenson, Cryptonomicon
All rebels are closet aristocrats.

Leto Atreides II
User avatar
SandRider
Watermaster
Posts: 6163
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
Location: In the back of your mind. Always.
Contact:

Re: a bit of drama

Post by SandRider »

Snowey wrote: not getting boners and then eventually dying
you'll see that's actually a blessing ....
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008
User avatar
Snowball
Posts: 61
Joined: 19 Jan 2010 23:38

Re: a bit of drama

Post by Snowball »

SandRider wrote:
Snowey wrote: not getting boners and then eventually dying
you'll see that's actually a blessing ....
Oh yeah, I forgot about going partially blind and deaf. So I won't technically be able to see it at all.
~oneeyedunicornhunter~
User avatar
SandRider
Watermaster
Posts: 6163
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
Location: In the back of your mind. Always.
Contact:

Re: a bit of drama

Post by SandRider »

what ?

I can't read this shit - you people gotta use bigger fonts ...
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008
Post Reply