Critique It.


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E. LeGuille
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Critique It.

Post by E. LeGuille »

So, I have doubts in my ability to write a scene of violence properly. It is a rough draft, and totally outside of it's context, and it may not be used. But it is something I wanted to share with you.I had told some of you in another post I would enjoy your input. So, here goes: A scene from "A Planet Named Earth".

In this scene, Jason Bell is the last human left after a twisted game with a sentient machine who calls himself Q. He is on a walk, forced to do so until he either succeeds in surviving, or fails. The history is that he was apart of a group wanting to sleep for a trip to Alpha Centauri, which takes approx. 30,000 years with current tech. There was a malfunction, however, and at first they thought they had made it.
And walked with him he did, as carefully as he could. Led now only by his instincts and natural feelings, all that was left was the question of his own fate. His heart ached for contentment, or resentment – to which the choice was the individual. But no other individual had caused more emotional reality than that of the hidden machine behind the curtain of clothed man who led him to his death. The land turned into hills, and the hills turned into mountains.

We never really ever left! We sat in those stasis pods for 35,000 years and nothing happened! Not a damn thing! We sat there, and this... monster found us. Gods be damned for this cruel fate!

The greatest deception, built alone by the hopes of those who are confined to their own box of reality, stuck in ignorance and bliss. The same creative part of the brain that constructed art, created reality. And this one was a nightmare.

We really did believe it... even if for only a moment, we believed – a new home...

“Your thoughts scream out from your face. Speak your mind, hach!” the metal man lurched torridly, awaiting the unwise move to be played by this pawn. The Queen and her pawns. His red eyes stared into the soul of the man. He dared to streamline the thought of the lost with the words of a man walking his last days.

He dares use the Hach name!

“Why? Why all of this, you monster! You alone could have taken us to salvation. You could have saved them, you let them die!” Jason looked into the metal man's inexistent soul.

Is it even a machine?

“Those who cannot survive their own home, are not fit to live in it.” Q's eyes shifted, as if scanning for another victim of his twisted games.

“And what about you, metal man? What of your home? Why aren't you there?”

The metal man let out an electric grunt. His eyes seemed to look elsewhere. He stared off into some other reality, some other realization, some other time. He begged for understanding, yet gave none himself. A small sound emanated from inside him. A sound, seemingly deafened by his metallic core.

“This... is my home, hach!”

No... he can't be human. It's impossible!

“You show disbelief. I am not here to make you believe me, but you should be given some moment of honesty before you fail your test.” And with that his metal core – the one that had committed the sin of sound – began to disassemble. Pieces moved in metal-liquid motion, fluid and functional in their design. All this revealed a small pouch, which within resided a small, pale body.

Gods... he's a pre-child!

The body floated among the pouch, in a blue-in-blue liquid. It was not a pre-child form, but it was fully sentient. This was no artificial intelligence, this was the work of evolution's dark, twisted side. It was the side of evolution that leads men back to lizards, only to become more fearsome and formidable than ever before. The pre-child form stared directly at Jason, with eyes that were black within black. It had been human once – a lifetime of lifetimes ago. Jason's thoughts echoed from his brain into his mouth, which distorted into twisted disgust. This pre-child form of human controlled this monstrosity of a machine, and was no longer willing to participate as taskmaster, but now as executioner. They had stopped in the middle of a marsh. There were no other residents among them.

“This game is over, and you have failed, Mr. Bell.” With his revelation, Jason fell to his knees now without a hope or care. It was over, and the odds were not in his favor. He bent his head in acceptance of his fate. This was it, the life among Earth was now that of a distorted pre-child set ready to kill him. It was a fit ending for a man who had cheated his way through the past 35,000 years, and his own lifetime before that. A man who, among his peers was revered, was now nothing in the eyes of this machine man, whose pre-child abomination features seemed to express their own story of pain. Metal arms raised above the now revealed faux head of the metallic beast that plagued humans over and over again. Fates accepted, Jason said his last sigh; words no longer mattered, or even took on any meaning. He closed his eyes, staring hard into the darkness behind his eyelids. He took comfort in being blinded. It was a satisfaction he had learned too late. He let himself fall into his own silence. A slight humming began to overtake him. It grew, more and more. A feeling inside him, as if something unfamiliar was atop him.

“Fang Dusharr, you are hereby ordered to stand-down and release your captive, or you will be executed! You have 5 seconds to comply!” Q quickly turned his head towards the annoying sound. The booming voice came from above. Jason shoved his senses back into reality. It was hard to see with the loud noises pushing his head inwards, but there was no doubting – another machine man, without by any means of disguise. He stood above them on a ledge, aiming a weapon of unusual make. It made a loud humming noise, cackling a the pointed edge with lights and sounds of electric discharge.

“Five!” shouted the other machine man.

Is he too, a pre-child machine abomination?

The captor and captive – the queen and her pawn – looked to the ugly reality that they were no longer alone. Q stood proudly, as Jason no longer could hear, but only watch, he counted to himself within the adrenaline rush of time.

Four..

Q was laughing with a strange expression of gleeful understatement. As if unprovoked, the metallic right hand shouted death, and screamed pain for it's victim, and wrapped around Jason's neck. The moment turned to hours. The hours turned to time unstated, as he laid limp in the hands of a mammoth monster, habited by this abomination of the gods. He felt the electric in the air, and the taste of metal began to overcome him.

Three...

The blue sky turned red, as blood squeezed into his every pore. Pouring his soul onto the ground in a copious amount, he realized his body was being quickly crushed – yet he felt no pain. Perhaps there was no time for pain.

Two... One...

A flash of light filled his vision, and it all went black. His thoughts faded into nothing. Each sense had it's own unique ending. He no longer could see, or hear – but a taste of metal struck him. His felt a loud expression of thunder, and he smelled that of ionized air...

“It's over.” he said, collapsing to the ground. The new machine was no where to be sensed, and he felt alone – yet he was at peace. A bright light faded into nothing. He no longer sensed anything. But he still... thought. His thoughts were still there.

Is this it? Is this death? Will my last coping of reality be share only with myself?

An electric buzzing tingled his thoughts, as they slowly passed away.
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Redstar
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Re: Critique It.

Post by Redstar »

...words no longer mattered, or even took on any meaning.
Your own line above says what I feel about your writing.

It's good, definitely, but there are issues. The fact that you gave us this excerpt from (possibly) the latter part of the novel is confusing, since I'm not sure if you expected us to know what you're talking about. You throw a lot of terms at us that I assume were defined earlier in the work, but at this time they just stick out and sound like fanciful concepts that some kid thought sounded cool.

Your use of terms such as "pre-child", "abomination", and "[color]-within-[color]" also suggests some Dune influence, which is both a good and bad thing. It's good because we all like Dune, and if you're going to be influenced by something it might as well be a masterpiece. But it's also bad because we were exposed to Dune first and being consciously reminded of it may very well lead us to think you're just ripping terms and plagiarizing rather than just being inspired. The farthest inspiration should go is the utilization of themes and basic ideas, then putting your own spin on them. Visuals and terms should only be used as cameos or Easter eggs. Nothing more.

Going back to what I quoted above, I must say that you have a tendency to overwrite. You don't do it in the fashion of Poe, but you do still extend sentences and use synonyms that otherwise shouldn't. If you entire novel is written in this way then you wont attract any readers but the most intellectual, and by intellectual I mean pretentious science fiction fans with no life.

Writing is all about expressing something. Words have meanings, and those meanings are applied by the writer. But meaning is also applied by the reader, so there has to be a compromise between the two so that the work is readable. You seem to be focusing more on prose writing, and though your technical writing is fine, your prose overpowers. Ever single word and sentence emits some meaning that the reader needs to pick up on. That sooner than later becomes a heavy load. All I can really recommend is going back and cutting down on the bloat that's developed and strive for a notch closer to simplicity. The areas this is most in need of revision are the dialogue and internal thoughts. I don't think people would talk or think as you have presented. The narrative is good, save a few words that could use more simple synonyms.

Overall a good piece. You know how to tie words together and express what you want. Lots of interesting ideas and characters, though I'm questioning if there's an actual story. Plot, yes, but why should I care about Mr. Jason Bell? I should hope his character is one thing at the beginning of the story, and another at the end. Otherwise I wont care.

I get the feeling that you don't typically have an audience. Try sharing your material with a more general audience. Not every science fiction fan enjoys Dune, and not every fantasy fan enjoys The Lord of the Rings.
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Re: Critique It.

Post by Eyes High »

Is this the beginning, with the remainder of the story going back to explains what your summary told or is this an excerpt from later on in the story?

Like Redstar said; different Science-fiction fans will look upon it with varying degrees of acceptance.

I liked the flow a little, but the name Q reminded me too much of “Q” from Star Trek. Sometimes it flowed well, other times it was a little…confusing.

Don’t give up. Work out the flow. Try to find a way to smooth it out. Make it more natural ebb and flow.
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Re: Critique It.

Post by Redstar »

Eyes High wrote:I liked the flow a little, but the name Q reminded me too much of “Q” from Star Trek. Sometimes it flowed well, other times it was a little…confusing.
My initial impression as well. The story, as vaguely as you described it, sounds like Star Trek (Q), Planet of the Apes ("It was Earth after all!" theme), and "I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream" (evil robot torments last living human/s). Not really anything drawing me in.
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Re: Critique It.

Post by Sandwurm88 »

It was okay.
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Re: Critique It.

Post by SandChigger »

E. LeGuille wrote:In this scene, Jason Bell is the last human left after a twisted game with a sentient machine who calls himself Q. He is on a walk, forced to do so until he either succeeds in surviving, or fails. The history is that he was apart of a group wanting to sleep for a trip to Alpha Centauri, which takes approx. 30,000 years with current tech. There was a malfunction, however, and at first they thought they had made it.
Um ... nah. Sorry, but I don't buy a civilization whose "current tech" can manage "stasis pods" that work for 30,000 years (actually 35,000 years?) but NOT build a starship that can accelerate at 1 g for a little over 71 minutes. (Because that's about all it would take—with an equivalent deceleration at the end of the trip—to get you to Alpha Centauri in around 30,000 years.) The very premise makes NO SENSE.

But maybe you explain that before the excerpt?
And walked with him he did, as carefully as he could. Led now only by his instincts and natural feelings, all that was left was the question of his own fate. His heart ached for contentment, or resentment – to which the choice was the individual. But no other individual had caused more emotional reality than that of the hidden machine behind the curtain of clothed man who led him to his death. The land turned into hills, and the hills turned into mountains.
Is he being led "only by his instincts and natural feelings" or by the "curtain of clothed man" (whatever that means)? "...to which the choice was the individual." The individual's? Otherwise, that's not even English.
Gods be damned for this cruel fate!
NO one curses—or even talks—like this ... especially in their own heads.
The greatest deception, built alone by the hopes of those who are confined to their own box of reality, stuck in ignorance and bliss. The same creative part of the brain that constructed art, created reality. And this one was a nightmare.
If I want to read psychobabble BS, I'll go find some elsewhere online.
“Your thoughts scream out from your face. Speak your mind, hach!” the metal man lurched torridly, awaiting the unwise move to be played by this pawn. The Queen and her pawns. His red eyes stared into the soul of the man. He dared to streamline the thought of the lost with the words of a man walking his last days.
I think maybe you should look up torrid in the dictionary, because it does not mean anything that plays well with lurch. And the chess analogy ... frankly sucks. Pawns don't "play moves", they are moved and played (usually against their own will).

I'll stop here unless you want me to go on.

(Who else do you read besides "best-selling author" KJA?)
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"
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Re: Critique It.

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

When I have some of my stuff ready to get torn up I'm definitely sending it your way Chig! It's nice that you'll give the straight goods, that's what people need.

To many people think "constructive criticism" means "say it nicely" - between you and the other people around here I might actually have a chance at writing passably one day!
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Re: Critique It.

Post by Freakzilla »

A Thing of Eternity wrote:When I have some of my stuff ready to get torn up I'm definitely sending it your way Chig! It's nice that you'll give the straight goods, that's what people need.

To many people think "constructive criticism" means "say it nicely" - between you and the other people around here I might actually have a chance at writing passably one day!

It IS possible to provide polite yet harsh criticism. :shock:
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Re: Critique It.

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

Freakzilla wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:When I have some of my stuff ready to get torn up I'm definitely sending it your way Chig! It's nice that you'll give the straight goods, that's what people need.

To many people think "constructive criticism" means "say it nicely" - between you and the other people around here I might actually have a chance at writing passably one day!

It IS possible to provide polite yet harsh criticism. :shock:
Of course, but I'm saying it doesn't have to be polite to be constructive.
:D

When I first joined up at DN I think my sig was something like this:

Whether or not citicism is constructive has more to do with the person accepting it than the person issuing it - Me
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Re: Critique It.

Post by Freakzilla »

A Thing of Eternity wrote:When I first joined up at DN I think my sig was something like this:

Whether or not citicism is constructive has more to do with the person accepting it than the person issuing it - Me
I remember that, loved it.
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Re: Critique It.

Post by SandChigger »

Was I not polite? :|

In retrospect it's a good thing I posted that this morning.

'Cause I'm bitchy now. :twisted:


;)
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Re: Critique It.

Post by Freakzilla »

SandChigger wrote:Was I not polite? :|
You were, thank you. :D
In retrospect it's a good thing I posted that this morning.

'Cause I'm bitchy now. :twisted:


;)
Fair warning!
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Re: Critique It.

Post by othaderak »

SandChigger wrote:'Cause I'm bitchy now. :twisted:
That time of month again?
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Re: Critique It.

Post by SandChigger »

Yes, I'm afraid it's my "Dirty Lady Time" now.

But have another cuppah—the tea is lovely this evening—and don't let it bother your pretty little head any further. ;)
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Re: Critique It.

Post by SandRider »

you make bunny cry :cry:
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Re: Critique It.

Post by Redstar »

Freakzilla wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:When I first joined up at DN I think my sig was something like this:

Whether or not citicism is constructive has more to do with the person accepting it than the person issuing it - Me
I remember that, loved it.
I actually just used that quote against the bitch.
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E. LeGuille
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Re: Critique It.

Post by E. LeGuille »

Thank you everyone for your criticism. This was more of a sketch idea for an ending, to which I think we'll leave all explanations aside.

I was moreso interested in the violence part, than anything -- I think I'd said that.

But for a little more expansion, I will add this:
There are series of humans who left at different periods, some with technologies based on what we have now, and a series of technologies of what would happen if priorities shifted to preservation. The assumption is that there are some that evolved through time, and then those who stayed the way they were. They did not advance thier sciences, and the ones who lived out the travels are vastly different than those who did not. From what was explained to me, mal-nutrition in space, and the constant zero-g atmosphere, would present a problem for growth; so I assumed that they eventually would look very frail, and much like a fetus. Which is why there is a fetus-like being in the chamber of the machine.

There are several groups in the story, some slept through the journey, some lived the entire way, and some just did not make it. The preservation idea comes because there is a few hundred years between the launches. With current technology it takes approx. 35,000 years for human travel to Alpha Centauri. The assumption that there would be starships is sort of odd, since the story basically premises that before they had to forcibly leave in different groups, there was little focus on space due to political global climates. A shift in mentality occurs when an unnamed disaster happens, and people begin to leave Earth. Some groups leave right away with what they have, thus why they have to live the entire time. There is a very cruel story behind this.

Some other groups leave later, deciding that supplies would be cut in very large amounts if they could preserve themselves, or at least some of them. So a group would actually pilot sleeping people to the star. This creates a caste system of those who were awake, and those who were asleep.

Then there is another group, who is the last to leave, and ends up with some of them, stuck on Earth. This first group unable to survive with gravity after so long of not being able to have it, are taking to planets in suits that help them explore the surface of planets. This particular group is looking to expand. For the purposes of antiquity, they decide to make them like human shells, so that they can resemble old humans. One of them, Q, is on Earth, and finds a set of the last group, whose pods did not properly launch. He basically wants to see what the technology was like. So that statement of decisions, "to the indvidiaul's" is wrong, because I mistakenly wrote it once with several people left, and decided it would be just Jason, seemingly the last human.
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Re: Critique It.

Post by Redstar »

E. LeGuille wrote:But for a little more expansion, I will add this:
There are series of humans who left at different periods, some with technologies based on what we have now, and a series of technologies of what would happen if priorities shifted to preservation. The assumption is that there are some that evolved through time, and then those who stayed the way they were. They did not advance thier sciences, and the ones who lived out the travels are vastly different than those who did not. From what was explained to me, mal-nutrition in space, and the constant zero-g atmosphere, would present a problem for growth; so I assumed that they eventually would look very frail, and much like a fetus. Which is why there is a fetus-like being in the chamber of the machine.
A problem that does occur in real-life, but is staved off by astronauts spending a lot of their time working out. I would imagine the same would be true for the civilian-astronauts, though I can believe some wouldn't want to and would become as you suggested.
E. LeGuille wrote:Some other groups leave later, deciding that supplies would be cut in very large amounts if they could preserve themselves, or at least some of them. So a group would actually pilot sleeping people to the star. This creates a caste system of those who were awake, and those who were asleep.
How exactly would a caste system come about between those sleeping and those awake? Those awake would essentially be slaves to the sleepers, and couldn't exactly "rule" them in any way. Unless you mean when the sleepers awake, a caste system then emerges. In which case I'd imagine after many years of tending the sleepers, they'd be conditioned to continue to be the slaves. I find that to be more interesting direction, if you were to do the caste system at all.
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Re: Critique It.

Post by E. LeGuille »

Redstar wrote:
E. LeGuille wrote:But for a little more expansion, I will add this:
There are series of humans who left at different periods, some with technologies based on what we have now, and a series of technologies of what would happen if priorities shifted to preservation. The assumption is that there are some that evolved through time, and then those who stayed the way they were. They did not advance thier sciences, and the ones who lived out the travels are vastly different than those who did not. From what was explained to me, mal-nutrition in space, and the constant zero-g atmosphere, would present a problem for growth; so I assumed that they eventually would look very frail, and much like a fetus. Which is why there is a fetus-like being in the chamber of the machine.
A problem that does occur in real-life, but is staved off by astronauts spending a lot of their time working out. I would imagine the same would be true for the civilian-astronauts, though I can believe some wouldn't want to and would become as you suggested.
Well, here is my suggestion to this: Think of the 60s. How many people were phyiscally active then, in ratio? Do you think more kids were active? Yes. Think of today. How many spend mindless hours at video games? Millions. It's changing our society into something else. So, in essence, my argument is that you cannot convince an entire colony to exercise for 35,000 years. Eventually, acceptance of the circumstance changes you. But that's just looking at it one way. Many people are still active, still very healthy, etc. So, it's a multi-faceted system that balances itself out in the end, but the result is the same: You eventually are going to lose bone mass, generation-to-generation. Life span will be up, as long as I can provide good gamma-ray shielding, but again -- we go into mutation-based breeding. Mutations such as longer eyes, and darker cornea. It could become a trait.
redstar wrote:
E. LeGuille wrote:Some other groups leave later, deciding that supplies would be cut in very large amounts if they could preserve themselves, or at least some of them. So a group would actually pilot sleeping people to the star. This creates a caste system of those who were awake, and those who were asleep.
How exactly would a caste system come about between those sleeping and those awake? Those awake would essentially be slaves to the sleepers, and couldn't exactly "rule" them in any way. Unless you mean when the sleepers awake, a caste system then emerges. In which case I'd imagine after many years of tending the sleepers, they'd be conditioned to continue to be the slaves. I find that to be more interesting direction, if you were to do the caste system at all.
The Sleepers are not technologically advancing, the Awake ones are. So, when those sleeping awake, I think it will be those who are sleeping who will fall into the guidance of those who are awake. And that is where this caste system will take place. It's a sub-species caste system. Do you think this works?
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Re: Critique It.

Post by Redstar »

E. LeGuille wrote:
Redstar wrote:
E. LeGuille wrote:But for a little more expansion, I will add this:
There are series of humans who left at different periods, some with technologies based on what we have now, and a series of technologies of what would happen if priorities shifted to preservation. The assumption is that there are some that evolved through time, and then those who stayed the way they were. They did not advance thier sciences, and the ones who lived out the travels are vastly different than those who did not. From what was explained to me, mal-nutrition in space, and the constant zero-g atmosphere, would present a problem for growth; so I assumed that they eventually would look very frail, and much like a fetus. Which is why there is a fetus-like being in the chamber of the machine.
A problem that does occur in real-life, but is staved off by astronauts spending a lot of their time working out. I would imagine the same would be true for the civilian-astronauts, though I can believe some wouldn't want to and would become as you suggested.
Well, here is my suggestion to this: Think of the 60s. How many people were phyiscally active then, in ratio? Do you think more kids were active? Yes. Think of today. How many spend mindless hours at video games? Millions. It's changing our society into something else. So, in essence, my argument is that you cannot convince an entire colony to exercise for 35,000 years. Eventually, acceptance of the circumstance changes you. But that's just looking at it one way. Many people are still active, still very healthy, etc. So, it's a multi-faceted system that balances itself out in the end, but the result is the same: You eventually are going to lose bone mass, generation-to-generation. Life span will be up, as long as I can provide good gamma-ray shielding, but again -- we go into mutation-based breeding. Mutations such as longer eyes, and darker cornea. It could become a trait.
Basically, if you don't work out often enough you'll atrophy and die. It doesn't even have to be enforced. The alternative is death.

The other areas could be fixed by good diet, especially those focused on muscle mass and bone structure, and a good radiation shield. That's to be expected. If you really want to go with mutation, then you're going to have to do the diet and shield anyways then explain that the shield broke and they ran out of milk. Otherwise people will call you a lazy writer that didn't think it out.
E. LeGuille wrote:
redstar wrote:
E. LeGuille wrote:Some other groups leave later, deciding that supplies would be cut in very large amounts if they could preserve themselves, or at least some of them. So a group would actually pilot sleeping people to the star. This creates a caste system of those who were awake, and those who were asleep.
How exactly would a caste system come about between those sleeping and those awake? Those awake would essentially be slaves to the sleepers, and couldn't exactly "rule" them in any way. Unless you mean when the sleepers awake, a caste system then emerges. In which case I'd imagine after many years of tending the sleepers, they'd be conditioned to continue to be the slaves. I find that to be more interesting direction, if you were to do the caste system at all.
The Sleepers are not technologically advancing, the Awake ones are. So, when those sleeping awake, I think it will be those who are sleeping who will fall into the guidance of those who are awake. And that is where this caste system will take place. It's a sub-species caste system. Do you think this works?
I didn't realize it was a 35,000-year-trip. I was thinking of something along the lines of 2001 for some reason. Blame the lack of sleep.

I suppose you could do that, but how exactly would their technology advance? Science usually marches on due to necessity in response to war. On a ship, even an eco-sustained ship, I don't expect a lot of war to be happening. The only way I can see this happening is with round-the-clock research teams, and even then a ship is a pretty controlled environment so the advancement itself would be controlled to a point. Plus the researchers would get bored for having a useless job.
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Re: Critique It.

Post by E. LeGuille »

Redstar wrote:
E. LeGuille wrote:
Redstar wrote:
E. LeGuille wrote:But for a little more expansion, I will add this:
There are series of humans who left at different periods, some with technologies based on what we have now, and a series of technologies of what would happen if priorities shifted to preservation. The assumption is that there are some that evolved through time, and then those who stayed the way they were. They did not advance thier sciences, and the ones who lived out the travels are vastly different than those who did not. From what was explained to me, mal-nutrition in space, and the constant zero-g atmosphere, would present a problem for growth; so I assumed that they eventually would look very frail, and much like a fetus. Which is why there is a fetus-like being in the chamber of the machine.
A problem that does occur in real-life, but is staved off by astronauts spending a lot of their time working out. I would imagine the same would be true for the civilian-astronauts, though I can believe some wouldn't want to and would become as you suggested.
Well, here is my suggestion to this: Think of the 60s. How many people were phyiscally active then, in ratio? Do you think more kids were active? Yes. Think of today. How many spend mindless hours at video games? Millions. It's changing our society into something else. So, in essence, my argument is that you cannot convince an entire colony to exercise for 35,000 years. Eventually, acceptance of the circumstance changes you. But that's just looking at it one way. Many people are still active, still very healthy, etc. So, it's a multi-faceted system that balances itself out in the end, but the result is the same: You eventually are going to lose bone mass, generation-to-generation. Life span will be up, as long as I can provide good gamma-ray shielding, but again -- we go into mutation-based breeding. Mutations such as longer eyes, and darker cornea. It could become a trait.
Basically, if you don't work out often enough you'll atrophy and die. It doesn't even have to be enforced. The alternative is death.

The other areas could be fixed by good diet, especially those focused on muscle mass and bone structure, and a good radiation shield. That's to be expected. If you really want to go with mutation, then you're going to have to do the diet and shield anyways then explain that the shield broke and they ran out of milk. Otherwise people will call you a lazy writer that didn't think it out.
Not saying that this isn't going to happen. But let's say I get stuck in a well for several years. I can either starve to death, or eat the wierd slimy worms I found. I have a diet, and that diet changes me for better or for worse. The well is dark, and it's been noted that dark places will alter your skin pigment. Take Golem from LOTR for example. I have thought it out. Long term space exposure, and generations-to-generations trait trading of human evolution will change people, and the fact I see loss of bone mass become more and more common among them over 35k years, I think that it is fair to say they would be pretty small. The fetus thing is a technique that I will explain later.
Redstar wrote:
E. LeGuille wrote:
redstar wrote:
E. LeGuille wrote:Some other groups leave later, deciding that supplies would be cut in very large amounts if they could preserve themselves, or at least some of them. So a group would actually pilot sleeping people to the star. This creates a caste system of those who were awake, and those who were asleep.
How exactly would a caste system come about between those sleeping and those awake? Those awake would essentially be slaves to the sleepers, and couldn't exactly "rule" them in any way. Unless you mean when the sleepers awake, a caste system then emerges. In which case I'd imagine after many years of tending the sleepers, they'd be conditioned to continue to be the slaves. I find that to be more interesting direction, if you were to do the caste system at all.
The Sleepers are not technologically advancing, the Awake ones are. So, when those sleeping awake, I think it will be those who are sleeping who will fall into the guidance of those who are awake. And that is where this caste system will take place. It's a sub-species caste system. Do you think this works?
I didn't realize it was a 35,000-year-trip. I was thinking of something along the lines of 2001 for some reason. Blame the lack of sleep.

I suppose you could do that, but how exactly would their technology advance? Science usually marches on due to necessity in response to war. On a ship, even an eco-sustained ship, I don't expect a lot of war to be happening. The only way I can see this happening is with round-the-clock research teams, and even then a ship is a pretty controlled environment so the advancement itself would be controlled to a point. Plus the researchers would get bored for having a useless job.
Okay -- two points: The fact they are sleeping does not mean they aren't going to need to be sustained. Otherwise the ones who are awake server no purpose, right? They are scientists who are heading up hydroponic research, preservation research -- all research to help prevent a bunch of freaking people from dying. That's a good incentive. But you're right, science comes from war. So, I will propose this: What of civil conflict among those who are awake?
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Re: Critique It.

Post by Redstar »

E. LeGuille wrote:Not saying that this isn't going to happen. But let's say I get stuck in a well for several years. I can either starve to death, or eat the wierd slimy worms I found. I have a diet, and that diet changes me for better or for worse. The well is dark, and it's been noted that dark places will alter your skin pigment. Take Golem from LOTR for example. I have thought it out. Long term space exposure, and generations-to-generations trait trading of human evolution will change people, and the fact I see loss of bone mass become more and more common among them over 35k years, I think that it is fair to say they would be pretty small. The fetus thing is a technique that I will explain later.
I don't think that changes the pigmentation of the skin so much as the lack of sunlight just makes them paler. It's like a reverse-tan... The color can easily go back to normalcy, so the pigmentation hasn't changed. Gollum is a special case. He literally lived for several hundred years, so I can believe his body adapted to his environment in a way a human couldn't in our short life-spans.

Again, the only way you're going to make this happen is if you do three things: 1.) Disrupt the diet, 2.) Damage the radiation shields, and, 3.) Screw up the lighting so humans aren't getting the healthy amount of synthetic sunlight
E. LeGuille wrote:Okay -- two points: The fact they are sleeping does not mean they aren't going to need to be sustained. Otherwise the ones who are awake server no purpose, right? They are scientists who are heading up hydroponic research, preservation research -- all research to help prevent a bunch of freaking people from dying. That's a good incentive. But you're right, science comes from war. So, I will propose this: What of civil conflict among those who are awake?
I'd assume mechanics would be more important than those areas of research. If they're still researching the stasis pods or whatever they are several decades, hundreds, thousands of years later after they've already proven to be working seems kinda a waste of time.

If any sort of conflict were to break out, it'd probably be over luxuries. Most people would probably be given rations and sleep in bunks or single-rooms that you can't even move in, so if there were an upper class (of wealthy/descendants of wealthy, pilots, researchers, or whatever) that had control of tobacco, alcohol, larger rooms, and other things then I can imagine a revolution of sorts. But the kind of war = scientific advancement wouldn't be possible in this situation, since the pod-workers aren't exactly going to invent the wheel when they can just use a pipe to smash heads.
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Re: Critique It.

Post by E. LeGuille »

Okay, without going too much into details on the evolving species, I don't think I could really explain why it won't work where humans are going to be a-ok.

So, I'll try to brief it: Humans, diet or not, over time develop traits of their environment. Technically, normalcy of skin melanoma is black, however, though evolution from Africa, and moving from countries and beyond, we are all much different looking now, because of the people that congregated in one area, developed a trait, and congregated with that major trait. So that is why we have Asians, for example, because Asians had traits that eventually we see in them today -- longer eyes, more narrow peripheral, yellow skin -- etc. This is because these are traits from thier environment and breeding. Vastly different from Europeans and Africans. Not to mention the differences of human evolution that lead to Pigmies, aborginals, and etc. These are not just surface -- eat your cheerios, live long and propser changes. These are things that happen in a zero-g atomosphere, whether you survive, have a diet, or not. You adapt to live in space, your body forces this over time, and over generations it becomes a trait.

So, 35,000 years -- this can happen. Trust me, I know it seems like it would be insane to assume such drastic changes take place, but it was less than 6,000 years that some people believe the earth was made, flooded, and is what it is today. Those people are not necessarily crazy, but we don't take that theory seriously because it has bias.

I do not have bias. I have asked several people who are doctors, anthropologists, and zoologists, if these things happen to birds and mammals, what of humans? Same thing: Our environment changes us.

Things do go wrong, and evolution will be dramtically changed by that fact alone. But this isn't the story, this is the premise of the story. :P



The second group of people -- Agreed, it does not make sense, so I may even eliminate them.
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Re: Critique It.

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I'm not saying that humans wont evolve or develop along some path over 35,000 years of sustained travel... That's a given. But how you make it happen is going to be difficult, since evolution is a difficult topic in terms of religion, philosophy, and science. Most people only get the religion part down, and the other two aren't something that can be explained in one sitting. It'll be something you'll have to put together piece by piece for the reader.
E. LeGuille wrote:The second group of people -- Agreed, it does not make sense, so I may even eliminate them.
Another route you could go, if you kept the conflict, is that the stasis pods are failing or some such and the researchers want to crack them open to keep them alive, but the powers-that-be fear a shift in social stability and want to keep them under lock-down. That's a suitable reason for conflict. Or you could have them come out, and show the society of the ship breaking down and adjusting.
E. LeGuille wrote:So that is why we have Asians, for example, because Asians had traits that eventually we see in them today -- longer eyes, more narrow peripheral, yellow skin -- etc.
I like how you generalize all Asians by those three features.
Last edited by Redstar on 11 Sep 2009 07:38, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Critique It.

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:doh:
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"
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