Looking for the FACTS...


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redbugpest
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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by redbugpest »

Mandy wrote:Dune fans aren't the only people who complain about Amazon deleting one star reviews. This has been going on for years. Here are a few examples:

http://www.planetfeedback.com/amazoncom ... ews/307295" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/bailey-reviews.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://motls.blogspot.com/2005/08/amazo ... kpots.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://askville.amazon.com/Amazon-routi ... d=12828922" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.bucksright.com/amazon-deleti ... -masse-304" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://glosslip.com/2008/04/10/is-amazo ... s-like-it/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I know that this is an issue. I just do not like folks running around making it seem like it is specific to one author's books, or that they have "provable FACTS" that the author (ANY author) is forcing Amazon to do it.

Thanks for the links though - I am pursuing it as a side project...
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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by redbugpest »

SandRider wrote:yeah, cause I can also go with Duke's idea that amazon itself removes
low ratings to make EVERYTHING look good ...


and hey, Conway, check it out - we're having a discussion about
Truth & Honesty - theirs AND ours ...

don't that just shift yer paradigm ?
Still trying to the mental image of asshat pickle-fucking to go away.....

BTW - did I ever say thank you for the invitation to come over here?? :mrgreen:
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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by TheDukester »

redbugpest wrote:... or that they have "provable FACTS" that the author (ANY author) is forcing Amazon to do it.
Misquoted, yet again. At least you're consistent when you're wrong.

I never claimed to HAVE anything. Not once did such a thought pass from mind to keyboard. I invite you, yet again, to go back and read the entry to see for yourself.

Are we really going to do this dance some more? No one here gives a shit about your crusade, Brian.

I'll make you a deal, in all seriousness: if you want to keep tilting at this windmill, let's do it at Amazon. Let's not clutter up these boards, where we are both guests.
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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by Schu »

redbugpest wrote:KJA / BH really do not have the same vision as FH had, and that will inevitably lead to items that do not “feel” right, or may take a stretch of the imagination. That would be the same with any author who would choose to write in the Dune Universe, just as I am seeing with Greg Bear in Foundation. He is not being as true to Asmov’s universe as I would like so far.
They could start by writing about the duniverse, not the dumbiverse. It wouldn't be much, but it sure would silence a lot of my criticisms.
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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by trang »

What the hell.

First, Red, we all have the same things in RL that keep us grounded and busy, so that is a push.
We are many here, you are one, so that can be difficult.
We all have a passion for DUNE.

I know this is like a dead horse, times a thousand, but it is so basic and straight to the core of things that I feel compelled to bring it up.

KJA/BJ flat out stated "We are the number one fans of DUNE"

Yet page one, book one, epigraph one of the book that all this started with states directly and with no room for confusion that PAUL was Born on Caladan, and never left until he went to Arrakis.

This fundemental staging of the character reachs far and across the books that KJA/BH have written. They throw this out completely in House Atriedies.They flash back to things and places Paul never did in Hunters and Sandworms. They completley and infatically argue the point in the book they call the sequel to Dune "PAUL OF DUNE". Four Separate times in the first 110 pages to be specific. They state they're creation of his birth on Kaitian, and his adventures otherworld. If Im not mistaken, their new creation continues this farce in "Winds of Dune". (I will hand it to them, the books are getting shorter, POD was just over 500 pages, WOD is about 470, the pain lessens, they are getting tired of writing, or gettting more confused, who knows another conversation for another day)

This lead me to the thought it was not just a simple inconsistancy but a planned plot point by them, because they obviously felt they couldnt work within the confines of Franks creation of the character.

Can you explain this?

They havent and wont, and see it as ok, its not. They add new dimensions to the character that cloud and confuse an already brilliant creation.

Take any masterwork, difuse, dilute, and sidetrack the character, and see how it works, it doesnt.

My personal opinion is they never understood Paul, so they cobbled together they're creation to make it work for THEIR story, not the Dune Saga.

::volley::::
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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by Robspierre »

Mr. Teg wrote:Looking for the FACTS...

A pic of Red during a special little trooper meeting with the Jacket.

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Just like Wheelie dry humping Megan Fox's leg in Transformers 2. Who's your good little autobot?

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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by Eyes High »

redbugpest wrote:...

I have consistently said that they are not anything like FH’s Dune, and feel that they are good in their own standing as SF books.
That's fine. I can respect that opinion. I like books that others do not.
As for the items that you list as inconsistencies and contradictions with canon, all I can say is this:

Not every Item is integral to the overall plot, so something like the data packet issue, to me, is not worth bothering about, because it is obvious that the author intended that the signal be received at a later time through some device. It was clear early on that Omnius would be the intended final antagonist.
Yet shouldn't it be believable to some extent? I am NOT a professional writer, but I do enjoy writing. I have been doing some for an RPG over at Worm's Sci-Fi Haven and I know for me personally-- I have tried to make what I've written so far at least 'somewhat' believable. Yes, it is great to use your imagination, but that imagination needs something to feed off of. I'm all for not worrying about every 'little' details. But when something is not ‘so little’ it can distract from the story and take from the enjoyment one might have gathered otherwise.
Some inconsistencies are going to appear in just about any book of any genre, I have enough imagination to see something that may have been an editing miss and just fill it in with what I felt the author intended and move on (like the disappearing / reappearing arm).
Ok...here, forgive me but I've got to point this out---inconsistencies and mistakes are not necessarily the same thing in my opinion. Mistakes are made... I totally agree with that. Typos, poor proof readings and so on and so forth. Mistakes are simple things. And I will admit that mistakes can even include inconsistencies, yet when those inconsistencies are so blatantly different from what was previously established then it is no longer a ‘mistake.’ I believe it is those types of inconsistencies that rile some Dune fans. The apparently BLATANT disregard for established information.

KJA / BH really do not have the same vision as FH had, and that will inevitably lead to items that do not “feel” right, or may take a stretch of the imagination. That would be the same with any author who would choose to write in the Dune Universe, just as I am seeing with Greg Bear in Foundation. He is not being as true to Asimov’s universe as I would like so far.
Then why claim they are carrying on Frank’s work? If they have a different vision then bill it as a NEW Dune universe not the supposedly just filling in the gaps left by Frank. (And if they have not claimed to be doing this, then I apologize for making the assumption.)

….
I cannot condone SC and some others activities, because they strike me as being in line with the type of extremist ideology that plagues the world today. The “if you do not agree with me I am going to call you names” thing really just removes credibility. I do not have much tolerance for that kind of stupid shit.
Yet you have engaged in the same behavior. Where I come from, that’s “the pot calling the kettle black.” I welcomed you just like any other new member. I have tried to extend the same courtesy to you that I would extend to any member here. The same courtesy that I would like to have extended to me. I asked you, in what I hope was a polite manner, for a civilized debate on the KJA books. “Treat me like a newbie to KJA” I think was the wording I used. I have yet to see that request answered.

In the beginning you did speak nice to me and for that I thank you, yet it wasn’t all that long ago that you implied that ALL here were closed minded and would not give you a fair shot. (not the exact words I know and unfortunately I can’t find the exact posts at this time) Well I am a member here…did that little remark include me as well?

Yes, I wish the guys wouldn’t use some of the language they use sometimes, but we are all adults here. But I have found some of your posts and languages just as offensive if not more so. I know there is no love lost between you and Chig. That is between the two of you, but from my perspective, you seemed to have come here with a chip on your shoulder.

You don’t know me and I don’t know you, but for the short amount of time I’ve been a member here I think the men and women here have learned me well enough to be able to tell you that it takes a lot to get under my skin.

Well you can call it pmsing, bitching, or whatever you what to, but congratulations RedBug…you are well on your way to accomplishing that feat. Maybe it’s just because it’s 2:30 a.m. here and I’ve been up for about 20 hours on just 4 hours of sleep. And if that turns out to be the case then I guess I owe you and my friends here for my unbecoming behavior and language.



Last thing before I call it a night.

I can stand the heat, and will continue to come back here, if you want to have a true dialog on some of these issues. Don’t ask or expect me to explain every little inconsistency as:
1. I didn’t write the books
2. I don’t have all the answers
3. I do not EVER pass notes or play as a go between with KJA or HLP
4. I do not have a ton of excess time.

I work, I go to school full time, I have a family. All of that comes before this and my other interests.

RBP
I would still like for you to come back and have true dialog. I believe the others would also welcome some true dialog, and I don't think any of them expect you to have all the answers. I, however, do have a request: take that chip off your shoulder.

I consider these guys and gals my friends, especially Chig, Schu, Trang, Omph, Nek, Mandy, Nymph, HBJ, Rob, Duke, Freak, Amp, GP, Thing, Tlezar, and many others. I even like SandRider a lot. :mrgreen: I can be friends with a lot a people at the same time. I can like all different types of people, it doesn’t mater to me. But what I don’t like is when people make uncalled for attacks against my friends.

In every welcome I give I try to remember to add this line: “look forward to getting to know you better.” That is not just a filler, I mean it when I write it. I would still like to get to know the real you better, the one not clouded by the anger, so how about it? A fresh start. A clean plate. Open and honest discussions of the books that we (the members of this board) seem to like and/or love.

SandRider’s invite got you over here, I would like to extend you another invite. If you like the Sci-fi genre, the check out Worm’s Sci-Fi Haven. But I warn you, foul language is not welcome over there.
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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by Hunchback Jack »

redbugpest wrote:KJA / BH really do not have the same vision as FH had, and that will inevitably lead to items that do not “feel” right, or may take a stretch of the imagination. That would be the same with any author who would choose to write in the Dune Universe.
I think part of the problem I have is that the new authors *have* no vision.

Frank Herbert had a vision. The original series - particularly the first four books - were vast in scope, each book carrying on the themes and challenging the ideas of the previous ones. The end of GEoD was really the culmination of a single long exploration of ideas. The next two books started a new conversation, but it still had its roots in the previous volumes, and was rich in its complexity and ambiguity.

The new books have no vision at all. Each scene serves as a link from the previous scene to the next. Each action scene has little impact beyond the moment. Each emotion felt by the characters is simple, fleeting, and has little influence on their actions. But moreover, the new authors have made the Dune universe itself subservient to the momentary needs of the story. Elements and strictures set by the original novels are ignored if they would prevent this chapter's scene from unfolding the way the new authors see it. Elements *that they themselves introduce* are ignored if they become an impediment to a later chapter's action.

It would be one thing if an author continued the original series by taking the story in an entirely new direction, giving new significance to events in the original novels. It might not be canon, but it would be interesting and, if respectfully done by a skilled author, would certainly not incur the kind of wrath KJA and BH have inspired.

But KJA and BH have not done this. They have disrupted FH's vision, surrounding and *interrupting* his sweeping narrative with books in which any drama or action are of the moment. To say that they have any kind of "vision" for Dune is to give them way too much credit.

HBJ
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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by TheDukester »

Eyes High wrote:But I warn you, foul language is not welcome over there.
God damnit! Are you shitting me?
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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by Robspierre »

Mama Bear has spoken! :orcs-whip: :romance-grouphug:

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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by Eyes High »

TheDukester wrote:
Eyes High wrote:But I warn you, foul language is not welcome over there.
God damnit! Are you shitting me?

Well maybe I should have said....excessive foul language.


Robspierre wrote:Mama Bear has spoken! :orcs-whip: :romance-grouphug:

Rob
Did I over do it? :shifty: Well maybe I need to get down :angry-soapbox: and head to off to bed. Let's see..3 a.m. til 830 a.m. yep that will be enough time, plus a nap in the afternoon.

Well goodnite my FRIENDS :romance-heartstiny:
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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by Omphalos »

Night Eyes.
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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by Seraphan »

If their writing doesnt put one off from the start, the childish violence they use will.
The greatest example i can think of is the one in Hunters where they kill ghola childs by gutting them, decapitating them, etc. Real sick stuff.
Did I over do it?
Nope, not in my opinion. :clap:
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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by SandChigger »

What the fuck happened to non-engagement until he stops the bullshit and addresses the issues? :roll:

And, Eyes, why the hell would you invite the asshole to Worm's?

Gah.
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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by Eyes High »

SandChigger wrote:What the fuck happened to non-engagement until he stops the bullshit and addresses the issues? :roll:

And, Eyes, why the hell would you invite the asshole to Worm's?

Gah.
"Did I do that?" (she said in a child's simple voice.)

I don't know.. :think: .still trying to be friendly. To show him that people can disagree without resulting to personal attacks. I don't know what I was thinking this morning, other than being really p....d off.

Later friends.
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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by Nekhrun »

SandChigger wrote:What the fuck happened to non-engagement until he stops the bullshit and addresses the issues? :roll:
Sorry, I have to do this:
redbugpest wrote: I have consistently said that they are not anything like FH’s Dune
redbugpest wrote:Why is security in nuDune a complete joke?
Security was a joke all throughout the novels. HO come there was a seeker hunter in Paul’s bedroom? How did Duncan get a weapon into Leto II’s presence? Security have to be flawed for the story to move along.
Emphasis mine.
That's just one time he's contradicted himself in the last 24 hours.
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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by smugetsu »

Hunchback Jack wrote:
I think part of the problem I have is that the new authors *have* no vision.

Frank Herbert had a vision. The original series - particularly the first four books - were vast in scope, each book carrying on the themes and challenging the ideas of the previous ones. The end of GEoD was really the culmination of a single long exploration of ideas. The next two books started a new conversation, but it still had its roots in the previous volumes, and was rich in its complexity and ambiguity.

The new books have no vision at all. Each scene serves as a link from the previous scene to the next. Each action scene has little impact beyond the moment. Each emotion felt by the characters is simple, fleeting, and has little influence on their actions. But moreover, the new authors have made the Dune universe itself subservient to the momentary needs of the story. Elements and strictures set by the original novels are ignored if they would prevent this chapter's scene from unfolding the way the new authors see it. Elements *that they themselves introduce* are ignored if they become an impediment to a later chapter's action.
I think HBJ nailed it. In Frank's books, you can feel the story building to an ultimate conclusion. You know that at some point, there will be a climax in the story, even though you can only guess what the end result will be. Every action has a reaction, whether it be politically, physically, or even just emotionally. You can tell that the books were written with great care.

I have read the House books and the Butlerian Jihad books...they don't have that. You can see all of the conflicts coming a mile away, and you already know what the outcome of those conflicts will be. It isn't a surprise, and what's worse, you don't even really care about the characters or what happens to them. The characters are just two-dimensional, not complex in any way. When HBJ says that it feels like just a series of scenes strung together, I agree. The entire works of KJABH sound like someone sat down and said, "wouldn't it be cool if..." without stopping to think what it meant for the story as a whole.
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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by Mr. Teg »

redbugplug wrote:I have consistently said that they are not anything like FH’s Dune, and feel that they are good in their own standing as SF books.


Wrong!
Remove the title and any of the original names and who would give any of those books a second glance let alone a publishing contract.

(Btw, even your commander confessed that he wrote the nudune books with his Star Wars fans in mind.)
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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by Mr. Teg »

Robspierre wrote:
Mr. Teg wrote:Looking for the FACTS...

A pic of Red during a special little trooper meeting with the Jacket.

Image

Just like Wheelie dry humping Megan Fox's leg in Transformers 2. Who's your good little autobot?

Rob
:)
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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by Nekhrun »

Mr. Teg wrote:
redbugplug wrote:I have consistently said that they are not anything like FH’s Dune, and feel that they are good in their own standing as SF books.


Wrong!
Remove the title and any of the original names and who would give any of those books a second glance let alone a publishing contract.

(Btw, even your commander confessed that he wrote the nudune books with his Star Wars fans in mind.)
Too bad he didn't write Star Wars books with Star Wars fans in mind.
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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by redbugpest »

Nekhrun wrote:
SandChigger wrote:What the fuck happened to non-engagement until he stops the bullshit and addresses the issues? :roll:
Sorry, I have to do this:
redbugpest wrote: I have consistently said that they are not anything like FH’s Dune
redbugpest wrote:Why is security in nuDune a complete joke?
Security was a joke all throughout the novels. HO come there was a seeker hunter in Paul’s bedroom? How did Duncan get a weapon into Leto II’s presence? Security have to be flawed for the story to move along.
Emphasis mine.
That's just one time he's contradicted himself in the last 24 hours.
How is that a contradiction ? You are obtuse just looking for excuses to talk shit.

That is a similarity in literary devices, not writing styles.
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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by TheDukester »

redbugpest wrote:You are obtuse just looking for excuses to talk shit.
I think it's great how you and the other preeks always like to say it's the OH movement that "hurls insults."

Pot. Kettle. Black.
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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by SandChigger »

Eyes High wrote:"Did I do that?" (she said in a child's simple voice.)

I don't know.. :think: .still trying to be friendly. To show him that people can disagree without resulting to personal attacks. I don't know what I was thinking this morning, other than being really p....d off.
:lol:
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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by SandRider »

ya know ...

I didn't really invite Conway here ... (I should perhaps go to amazon &
check my exact wording, but fuck all that noise ...)

it was more along the lines of " Yeah, whatever, you can't have a good fight
here on this general-public, kid-friendly board, there's not enough room any
way, come on into the sietch & we'll have it out like men ...."

the interweb forum version of "Let's just step outside ..."

but I am certainly glad he took the "invitation", however he
construed it in his own mind. Wish David James & several
others from the Amazon board would as well.

for one thing, between this Pest Infestation & the release of the new
Silly-Book & the subsequent activity @amazon & elsewhere, this little
ol' board has been on fire. Far & Away the most active
Dune-related board on the net. Hell, at this point, maybe the only
one. Certainly the only one with any relevance.

and to Eyes - yes, our use of colorful language sometimes get out of hand,
and the examples of the elders who use such language offer a poor example
for the youngers who often don't wield a sharp tongue with aplomb & accuracy,
but one the over-riding considerations that drew me to this little cave of evil and
kept me coming back was, in fact, that freedom.

I'd spent a little too long on civil war & re-enacting boards where even the slightest
hint of conflict resulted in deletions & bannings. I am a crude, vulgar, bitter, old,
cranky, bitter asshole. I grumble & roar. Sometimes I mean it, sometimes I don't.

I was very pleased to find a little space on the net where I could be myself, that
also happened to center around one of the very few things I'm still passionate about.

I agree that the language, content, ridicule of The Jacket & the Dead-Father Corpse-Fuckers
often goes over the top, making this a place where young children & the easily offended
are not welcome.

And maybe, as was tossed around earlier this year, there SHOULD be a "G-rated" board
for serious Dune discussion. But at this point, this sietch isn't it, and can't
be, without tossing out tens of thousands of posts ....
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
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Re: Looking for the FACTS...

Post by Eyes High »

SandRider wrote:ya know ...

I didn't really invite Conway here ... (I should perhaps go to amazon &
check my exact wording, but fuck all that noise ...)

.....
I think I saw something over at Chig's that could have been construed as an invite, but I can't find it right now. Sorry. I seem to remember it reading something like: "...come on over to Jacurutu." or something like that.

SandRider wrote:and to Eyes - yes, our use of colorful language sometimes get out of hand,
and the examples of the elders who use such language offer a poor example
for the youngers who often don't wield a sharp tongue with aplomb & accuracy,
but one the over-riding considerations that drew me to this little cave of evil and
kept me coming back was, in fact, that freedom.

I'd spent a little too long on civil war & re-enacting boards where even the slightest hint of conflict resulted in deletions & bannings. I am a crude, vulgar, bitter, old, cranky, bitter asshole. I grumble & roar. Sometimes I mean it, sometimes I don't.

I was very pleased to find a little space on the net where I could be myself, that also happened to center around one of the very few things I'm still passionate about.

I agree that the language, content, ridicule of The Jacket & the Dead-Father Corpse-Fuckers often goes over the top, making this a place where young children & the easily offended are not welcome.

And maybe, as was tossed around earlier this year, there SHOULD be a "G-rated" board
for serious Dune discussion. But at this point, this sietch isn't it, and can't
be, without tossing out tens of thousands of posts ....

Sorry SandRider; I can see now how this could be misinterpreted a little.
“Eyes High” wrote:Yes, I wish the guys wouldn’t use some of the language they use sometimes, but we are all adults here. But I have found some of your posts and languages just as offensive if not more so. I know there is no love lost between you and Chig. That is between the two of you, but from my perspective, you seemed to have come here with a chip on your shoulder.
That was my fault for not making sure I was getting my point across.


I knew when I joined this site that it was an adult forum with ‘colorful’ language at times. Believe it or not, I can handle that. And I’m not asking that you, or anyone else curtail that necessarily. Yes, I still wish personally that some of y’all wouldn’t tell others to F… off, or go F… themselves. But that’s just me. My main point I was trying to make was not directed at you or the other regular members here but at Redbug which --as weird as it may sound-- I found more offensive with his comments directed toward Duke than anything I’ve read by you or Chig. I also know how hypocritical it sounds to be offended by vulgar comments by one person and not others…I have no explanation as to why it affected me so, other than the possibility that if felt like an unwarranted attack on someone I consider a friend. An on-line friend true, but a friend non the less. And yes I know all of you are big boys and girls that can take care of themselves.


Forgive me if I came across as a ‘goody two shoes’ and please believe that was not my intent.

Hell I don’t even know what I was thinking when I wrote that this morning, other than just being ticked off.
What fear is there in the night?
Nothing, but that which is in our own imaginations.
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