For Freak-Z (SW question)


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For Freak-Z (SW question)

Post by GamePlayer »

Making another thread to answer Freakzilla's question, because it was way off topic :)
Freakzilla wrote:I watched The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi last night.

I have a question from RotJ. Didn't Luke use anger to defeat Darth Vader? Shouldn't that have put him on the path to the dark side which would then forever dominate his destiny? Or did throwing down his light saber put him back on the right path?

My wife asked this while watching ESB:

If Annakin built C3PO, why is there a silver droid that looks just like him at cloud city and why does C3PO recognize him as a "familiar face"?

I told my wife that it was a comon droid model and Annakin just rewired and reprogrammed him.
RotJ question: Luke did possess the same anger of his father, but Luke was different from his father such that Luke was not ruled by his emotions. Luke's fight with the dark side was the fight between emotion and reason. But Luke matured as a person and his reason won out over his emotion. The threat upon his sister's life infuriated him to the point where he nearly killed Darth Vader in anger. But it was Luke's reason that overcame his moment of fury and Luke's compassion for his father that won over Vader.

The irony is that neither Luke nor Vader had any hope of defeating the Emperor. Vader's "plans" were flawed, because even together he and Luke had little hope of defeating the Emperor and ruling the Galaxy as father and son. Ben's "plans" were flawed, because even if Luke defeated Vader, Ben knew Luke had little hope of defeating the Emperor alone. The Emperor's defeat really required a miracle, but the miracle came from the most unexpected place. Luke's compassion for his father was the thing that saved the Galaxy. It turned Vader, who betrayed the Emperor and killed him when he least expected it. Luke became a true Jedi, the triumph of his compassion being the ultimate victory he achieved over evil. Hence "Return of the Jedi", wherein "Jedi" is used both specifically to refer to Luke and non-specifically to refer to the return of those ideals thought to be extinct like the Knights of the Old Republic.

tESB question: Before I answer this question, I'd just like to make it clear that having Anakin build 3PO was a stupid idea and fails on several levels. I make no excuse for it and believe it's a weakness of the new trilogy.

Having said that, C-3PO was never meant to be a one-of-a-kind droid. We see several of him throughout the trilogy, including a silver version in "A New Hope" and in "Return of the Jedi" (as you mentioned). Anakin simply built C-3PO like a mechanic might build a car; the mechanic doesn't design the car like an engineer, but the mechanic builds the car from numerous parts.

C-3PO's response to seeing another droid of the same model was to say "a familiar face in a foreign place", but not literally a droid that he'd recognize as having seen before. 3PO simply saw another protocol droid of the same model and being the polite droid he is, expressed how nice it was to see another of his kind. Like two Canadians who don't know each other meeting in Madagascar; they'd simply be pleased to see a familiar face in a foreign place (ie, "familiar" meaning a fellow countryman).
Last edited by GamePlayer on 13 Jan 2009 13:56, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by GamePlayer »

Whoops, off by one mouse click :)
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Post by Freakzilla »

Thanks for your answers. I posted my questions in that topic because SW was being discussed a few posts up.

So you basically agree that throwing down his light saber and refusing to finish Vader off was what saved him.

I agree that the connection between Annakin and C3PO was something Pinky & The Brian worthy.

Here's another inconsistancy I noticed between RotJ and RotS:

In RotJ, Luke asks Leia what she remembers of her mother, she responds something like "just images, she was beautifull but sad", however in EpIII their mother dies in childbirth.

Having Hayden appear as a ghost at the end really pisses me off too. How come Yoda and Ben look the age they were when they died but Annakin goes back to being a young man?

I can't help but watch that sceen and think of Chasing Amy:
HOOPER
(holds up comic)
Now my book, 'White-Hating Coon',
doesn't have any of that bullshit. The
hero's name is Maleekwa, and he's a descendant of the black tribe that
established the first society on the
planet, while all you European mother
fuckers were still hiding in caves and
shit, all terrified of the sun. He's a
strong role model that a young black
reader can look up to, .Cause I'm here
to tell you - the chickens are comin'
home to roost, ya'll: the black man's
no longer gonna play the minstrel in
the medium of comics and Sci-
Fi/Fantasy! We're keeping it real,
and we're gonna get respect -
by any means necessary!

During the speech, Holden and Banky enter and sit up
front.
HOLDEN
(calling out)
Bullshit! Lando Calrissian was a
black man, and he got to fly the
Millennium Falcon!

Hooper whips his head around, looking for the source of
the comment
HOOPER
Who said that?!?

HOLDEN
(standing)
I did! Lando Calrissian is a positive
black role model in the realm of
Science Fiction/Fantasy.

HOOPER
Fuck Lando Calrissian! Uncle Tom
nigger! Always some white boy gotta
invoke 'the holy trilogy'! Bust this -
those movies are about how the white
man keeps the brother man down - even in a galaxy far, far away. Check
this shit. You got cracker farm-boy
Luke Skywalker, Nazi poster boy -
blond hair, blue eyes. And then you've got Darth Vader: the blackest brother in the galaxy. Nubian God.

BANKY
What's a Nubian?

HOOPER
Shut the fuck up! Now Vader, he's a
spiritual brother, with the force and
all that shit. Then this cracker
Skywalker gets his hands on a light-
saber, and the boy decides he's
gonna run the fucking universe - gets
a whole Klan of whites together, and
they're gonna bust up Vader's 'hood the Death Star. Now what the fuck do
you call that!

BANKY
Intergalactic Civil War!

HOOPER
Gentrification. They're gonna drive
our the black element, to make the
galaxy quote, unquote 'safe' for white
folks.

HOLDEN
But Vader turns, out to be Luke's
father. And in Jedi, they become
friends.

HOOPER
Don't make me bust a cap in your ass,
yo! Jedi's the most insulting
installment, because Vader's
beautiful, black visage is
sullied when he pulls off his mask to
reveal a feeble, crusty white man!
They're trying to tell us that deep
inside, we all want to be white!

BANKY
Well isn't that true?

Hooper explodes, He pulls a nine millimeter from his
belt, draws on Banky and fires. Banky goes down, falling
forward into the crowd The crowd screams and starts to
scatter, Hooper jumps over the table and raises his fists
in the air.

HOOPER
BLACK RAGE! BLACK RAGE!! I'LL KILL
ANY WHITE FOLKS I LAY MY MOTHER
FUCKIN' EYES ON!!!
:lol:
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Post by GamePlayer »

I love Canadians; enjoy some multi-culturalism! :)
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Post by Freakzilla »

GamePlayer wrote:I love Canadians; enjoy some multi-culturalism! :)
I love 'em too, but one at a time.

...and you're next!

:P

{Topic Moved}
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Post by GamePlayer »

Freakzilla wrote:Thanks for your answers. I posted my questions in that topic because SW was being discussed a few posts up.

So you basically agree that throwing down his light saber and refusing to finish Vader off was what saved him.

I agree that the connection between Annakin and C3PO was something Pinky & The Brian worthy.

Here's another inconsistancy I noticed between RotJ and RotS:

In RotJ, Luke asks Leia what she remembers of her mother, she responds something like "just images, she was beautifull but sad", however in EpIII their mother dies in childbirth.

Having Hayden appear as a ghost at the end really pisses me off too. How come Yoda and Ben look the age they were when they died but Annakin goes back to being a young man?

I can't help but watch that sceen and think of Chasing Amy:

:lol:
You're welcome and thanks for moving the topic to the proper forum.

Luke relinquishing his saber is absolutely what saved him. It's typically Star Wars, so the acting is a little rough in trying to convey the proper emotion for the scene, but thematically that's undeniably the point of the story.

The Leia inconsistency is another good point. A prime example of the dangers going back to write a prequel.
The only half-assed work-around I've ever heard to explain that one is a tenuous link via the force. Both Luke and Leia are force sensitive, so they may have had visions of their parents either in the womb or as adults seeing pieces of the "the future, the past, old friends...long gone". Leia had a link with her mother ("just images really, feelings") while Luke had a link to his father ("Search your feelings, you KNOW it to be true"). It's a stretch as an explanation (and again, I'm not going to make excuses for what is blatantly weak writing), but if you think about it, this explanation does work on the level of subtext.

But of course, granting Star Wars an abundance of subtext (it has some, but not much) is granting it too much credit beyond what it is :)

Hayden appearing young at the end was lame too. They should have just left Sebastian Shaw as Anakin. I've heard people claim that Anakin appears young as a force Ghost because that's the age when he was good. But that makes no sense, since it was Anakin as an old man who was pulled back from the dark side and found redemption through the love of his son Luke. So he should appear old, no excuses. That's my opinion.

Not a huge Kevin Smith fan; all I remember from Chasing Amy was "fucking tracer!" :lol:
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Post by Freakzilla »

GamePlayer wrote:Not a huge Kevin Smith fan; all I remember from Chasing Amy was "fucking tracer!" :lol:
Your mother was a tracer! :lol:

Even if you're not a KS fan, Chasing Amy is a good movie.
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Post by GamePlayer »

If I had to like a Kevin Smith film, it would be Clerks (which does have the discussion of all the innocent contractors killed aboard the Death Star) :)
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Post by Freakzilla »

GamePlayer wrote:If I had to like a Kevin Smith film, it would be Clerks (which does have the discussion of all the innocent contractors killed aboard the Death Star) :)
I think he does a little SW tribute in all his movies, however I can't think of one from Dogma...
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Post by Drunken Idaho »

Freakzilla wrote:
GamePlayer wrote:If I had to like a Kevin Smith film, it would be Clerks (which does have the discussion of all the innocent contractors killed aboard the Death Star) :)
I think he does a little SW tribute in all his movies, however I can't think of one from Dogma...
Jay: "It's like I'm Han, he's Chewie and we're in that FUCKED UP BAR!"

And, does an Indiana Jones Referenace count as a Star Wars reference? :P

Silent Bob: (To passengers, after throwing someone off the train) "No ticket."



And in response to all these Star Wars inconsistencies...

Luke came very close in those last monets to striking down Vader. Killing Vader probably would have done it completely (a la Anakin killing Dooku, etc). But right before he would land the fatal blow, he stops and looks at Vader's now-severed hand, and his own robotic hand, and this reminds him that he could become like Vader (in more ways than just being an android).

And I really like GP's explanation with the "feelings." I had always figured it was along those lines, but I think you put it really well.
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Post by GamePlayer »

Why thank you.
I think the emotional resonance was the main reason why I still like some of the Star Wars films to this day. I think it was also the reason the third prequel was way better than the other two. Star Wars has never been great art, but on the rare occasion when a genuine emotional chord meets with the operatic story in a crescendo (The Empire Strikes Back, Revenge of the Sith), Star Wars really shines as a moving, grand adventure story.
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Post by Drunken Idaho »

GamePlayer wrote:Why thank you.
I think the emotional resonance was the main reason why I still like some of the Star Wars films to this day. I think it was also the reason the third prequel was way better than the other two. Star Wars has never been great art, but on the rare occasion when a genuine emotional chord meets with the operatic story in a crescendo (The Empire Strikes Back, Revenge of the Sith), Star Wars really shines as a moving, grand adventure story.
I think we have John Williams to thank for much of that emotional attachment... Especially the crescendos ;)

But ROS being better than the other two prequels? Nope. I disagree. In fact, i think Phantom Menace was the one that felt most like a Star Wars film. probably because it actually had SETS and LOCATIONS and COSTUMES and ACTORS. The other two (especially RotS) were far too cartoony for my taste. I consider them on the same level as Reboot.
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Post by Freakzilla »

The scores were a HUGE part of those movies, and genius.
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Post by Schu »

SW 1's plot was far too childish though. Luckily it did have some decent music, but not enough to save it.

SW 2 I disliked altogether. The music was bad, and in the times when it was not bad, I noticed it was recycled from other SW movies. The story was not impressive, and I didn't like Anakin, he was a brat.

SW 3 had really interesting music: at least 5 bits I could name that truly fascinated me. I can listen to the whole soundtrack very easily. I liked Anakin much more, and while there are certainly things I disagree with in the movie plot-wise, I still quite liked it.
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Post by Freakzilla »

Schu wrote:SW 3 had really interesting music: at least 5 bits I could name that truly fascinated me. I can listen to the whole soundtrack very easily. I liked Anakin much more, and while there are certainly things I disagree with in the movie plot-wise, I still quite liked it.
I still hated him, maybe even more. Christiansen's acting aspires to one day be up there with Keanau Reeves.

Nobody as cool as Darth Vader could have come from that whiney dork.
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Post by GamePlayer »

The music is so integral to the success of the Star Wars films, it's impossible for those films to work without music. It was John William's over-scoring of the Star Wars films that allowed a lot of the elements of the story to work, especially in light of the melodramatic acting throughout all the films.

Drunken Idaho
I couldn't disagree more. Revenge of the Sith was the only one of the Star Wars prequels to achieve genuinely engaging drama on a level approaching the successful highs of the original Star Wars films. Episodes 1 and 2 don't even have enough dramatic gravitas to compete with Episode 3, let alone RotJ (arguably the weakest of the original three).

And debating which Star Wars prequel was more CGI-infused than the other is like arguing rain drops in a flood. :)
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Post by Schu »

Freakzilla wrote:I still hated him
Oh, I did too, for sure. But not even remotely as much as in II. He was just a fucking whiney baby there.
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Post by Drunken Idaho »

GamePlayer wrote:The music is so integral to the success of the Star Wars films, it's impossible for those films to work without music. It was John William's over-scoring of the Star Wars films that allowed a lot of the elements of the story to work, especially in light of the melodramatic acting throughout all the films.

Drunken Idaho
I couldn't disagree more. Revenge of the Sith was the only one of the Star Wars prequels to achieve genuinely engaging drama on a level approaching the successful highs of the original Star Wars films. Episodes 1 and 2 don't even have enough dramatic gravitas to compete with Episode 3, let alone RotJ (arguably the weakest of the original three).

And debating which Star Wars prequel was more CGI-infused than the other is like arguing rain drops in a flood. :)
The emotional crescendo you speak of in RotS did have drama but unfortunately it involved the retarded "Order 66" in which all the Jedis died like bitches. That part makes me cringe, how easily they die. Especially when Ki-Adi-Mundi turns around and yells "Come on!" in a TOTALLY DIFFERENT VOICE than the one he had in Phantom Menace, before dying like an ignorant twat.

I can see how this happened... They didn't bother shooting sound that day, just like how they didn't bother building any sets, and they had the Ki-Adi-Mundi guy running around in front of a blue screen. During some phase of post-production, they had a rough cut in which they hadn't yet included the massive amount of ADR (Additional Dialogue Replacement) they did for the film. they probably had place-holder dialogue put in there with the voice of some assistant sound editor. George probably saw this rough cut, and thinking his idiot fan-boys wouldn't notice, decided that the placeholder dialogue would suffice.

Even Nute Gunray's assistant dude (the japanese-sounding Neimoidians) had a different voice in each of the three god-forsaken movies. Such lazy film-making, if you can even call it that.

And Phantom menace isn't nearly as much of a CGI bombardment that Sith is.
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Post by Freakzilla »

I must admit, that opening space battle in RotS about made me barf from dizziness at the theater.

It was my favorite of the prequels though.
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Post by GamePlayer »

Drunken Idaho
That's definitely missing the forest for the trees, IMO. But then obsessing upon the nitpicks was never my strong suit :)
The Jedi were never shown as invincible and are described many a time as incapable of defending the Republic on their own. RotS worked with a brief montage to show the Jedi's final defeat, a defeat which was foreshadowed for a long time coming. Instead the film spent it's time with scenes of the characters that were more important to the story and the film was better for it.
A very important point the makers of The Matrix sequels totally failed to understand :)

Freakzilla
I loved the opening battle, especially the sense of inertia :)
I agree that RotS was the best of the prequels.
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Post by Freakzilla »

Freakzilla
I loved the opening battle, especially the sense of inertia :)
I agree that RotS was the best of the prequels.
I think it was probably the best space battle I've seen, second to the Rebel attack on the DS in RotJ. Just made me dizzy. I've enjoyed watching it more at home.
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Post by GamePlayer »

Interesting. Do you get dizzy playing video games as well? Or watching "shaky cam" style movies?
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Post by Freakzilla »

GamePlayer wrote:Interesting. Do you get dizzy playing video games as well? Or watching "shaky cam" style movies?
No, that's the only time that's ever happened to me. I don't get sea-sick either. I used to play combat flight simulators all the time and that never bothered me.
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Post by GamePlayer »

Weirdness. Perhaps it was just the way it was shot. The big fleet battles in Star Wars do make use of a rotating "water line" which I think is something unique in all of science fiction film. Yes, we've seen fleet battles in other sci-fi (though rarely) but they don't have that weird "water level" that all the ships sit at when fighting and floating. And when the camera follows fighters through the battle, that line will shift all over. It creates a strong sense of inertia and motion by providing an anchor for the audience to experience up and down/right and left in the ordinarily directionless environment of space.

Maybe :)
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Post by SandChigger »

Huh.

I thought you were supposed to unplug your brain when you watch SW.

Go figure.
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