Scenes You Want or Expect to See in Dune (2010)!

    The films, miniseries, music, video games, etc...

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Simon
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Postby Simon » 25 Aug 2008 18:01

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Simon wrote:KJA's Saga of the Seven Suns was actually very good. :)
It wasn't DUNE but I enjoyed, it was a great space opera. If that isn't your thing then, yeah, your not going to like it but if it is, I'd give it a chance, you may even be surprised.


Would you say the prose, character development (not the quality of the characters, the quality of how they are shown to the reader) and the dialogue in the SotSS is:
A - About the same as the recent KJABH books?
B - Better than the recent KJABH books?
C - Worse than the recent KJABH books?

Bit of a loaded question obviously. :wink:
I know I promised you and Byron I'd read one of those just to give it a try, but I'm honestly just not very enthusiastic about it. Especially considering that every single plot point and worldbuilding feature I've heard of so far has been done at least once before (plus the name of the alien race, which is almost a direct steal from Ian M Banks' Consider Phlebas)

And I do like a good Space Opera every now and again as a bit of a lighter read, I've really enjoyed everything I've read by Alastair Reynolds for example.

One thing I like about this forum (granted, I haven't been here long) is that while there's a lot of negativity about the new novels, I don't think there's any chance of someone being banned for liking them, or for being very vocal about liking them.
HBJ


The nail has been hit on the head.


to Freak and Thing:

The writing style is similar to what's been done with his Dune books, but then they were written at the same time, so you'll have that.

Also in an essay he wrote addressing his time writing SotSS he made it clear that he just wrote the series as "his love letter to Sci-Fi". He said he borrowed from everything he grew up loving to make his story, and as any artist knows borrowing from the greats is all part of the game, ask Led Zeppelin or Eric Clapton.

I mean Freak you say "Asimov did it first". Just because Michelangelo carved "David" should all sculptors "give it up". No way. Art is all about learning from the masters and trying to improve upon it in your own way. Some time the Masters are surpassed, other times not. It's all hit and miss but someone has to try.

SotSS is definitly a lighter read than other stuff but a whole lot of fun. It would make an excellent television series.

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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 25 Aug 2008 18:04

Simon wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Simon wrote:KJA's Saga of the Seven Suns was actually very good. :)
It wasn't DUNE but I enjoyed, it was a great space opera. If that isn't your thing then, yeah, your not going to like it but if it is, I'd give it a chance, you may even be surprised.


Would you say the prose, character development (not the quality of the characters, the quality of how they are shown to the reader) and the dialogue in the SotSS is:
A - About the same as the recent KJABH books?
B - Better than the recent KJABH books?
C - Worse than the recent KJABH books?

Bit of a loaded question obviously. :wink:
I know I promised you and Byron I'd read one of those just to give it a try, but I'm honestly just not very enthusiastic about it. Especially considering that every single plot point and worldbuilding feature I've heard of so far has been done at least once before (plus the name of the alien race, which is almost a direct steal from Ian M Banks' Consider Phlebas)

And I do like a good Space Opera every now and again as a bit of a lighter read, I've really enjoyed everything I've read by Alastair Reynolds for example.

One thing I like about this forum (granted, I haven't been here long) is that while there's a lot of negativity about the new novels, I don't think there's any chance of someone being banned for liking them, or for being very vocal about liking them.
HBJ


The nail has been hit on the head.


to Freak and Thing:

The writing style is similar to what's been done with his Dune books, but then they were written at the same time, so you'll have that.

Also in an essay he wrote addressing his time writing SotSS he made it clear that he just wrote the series as "his love letter to Sci-Fi". He said he borrowed from everything he grew up loving to make his story, and as any artist knows borrowing from the greats is all part of the game, ask Led Zeppelin or Eric Clapton.

I mean Freak you say "Asimov did it first". Just because Michelangelo carved "David" should all sculptors "give it up". No way. Art is all about learning from the masters and trying to improve upon it in your own way. Some time the Masters are surpassed, other times not. It's all hit and miss but someone has to try.

SotSS is definitly a lighter read than other stuff but a whole lot of fun. It would make an excellent television series.


I think we just have a disagreement over where to draw the line between inspiration and plagiarism. I doubt we'll get any meaningful discussion done on the topic so I'll leave it be.
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Postby SimonH » 25 Aug 2008 18:04

Simon wrote:
Hunchback Jack wrote:Simon, I agree that KJA being a "good writer" or not (or how much that bothers you), is very subjective. I don't think there's anything wrong with KJA writing the Seven Suns; I just won't read them. :) The other matter of KJA/BH's integrity with respect to the Dune universe is less subjective, I think.

One thing I like about this forum (granted, I haven't been here long) is that while there's a lot of negativity about the new novels, I don't think there's any chance of someone being banned for liking them, or for being very vocal about liking them.

HBJ


I agree and it's appreciated. But I think you guys should cut Byron some slack. He's the administrator of the official site. He can't just let people bash away. And while he does delete some post, I don't feel that he does it to paint a flattering picture of BH and KJA's work. Clearly not everyone likes the new stuff, that is apparent even at DN. I don't claim to understand what goes on in the deletion/banning processes but Byron has never struck me as the "frothing" sort.


it is hard to comment on what has and has not been deleted unless you watch the site 24 hours a day. I have had stuff deleted that was just venting and put up with it. I have also had stuff deleted that should not have been deleted. I gave up trying to post there and asked Byron to delete my account.

Simon - have you had many posts deleted from DN? You have come from the supportive side to the new books so you have probably not seen the infuriating side that some of us had, for example as I understand it, Lisan al Gaib was banned from DN for something that he posted here!

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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 25 Aug 2008 18:08

SimonH wrote:
Simon wrote:
Hunchback Jack wrote:Simon, I agree that KJA being a "good writer" or not (or how much that bothers you), is very subjective. I don't think there's anything wrong with KJA writing the Seven Suns; I just won't read them. :) The other matter of KJA/BH's integrity with respect to the Dune universe is less subjective, I think.

One thing I like about this forum (granted, I haven't been here long) is that while there's a lot of negativity about the new novels, I don't think there's any chance of someone being banned for liking them, or for being very vocal about liking them.

HBJ


I agree and it's appreciated. But I think you guys should cut Byron some slack. He's the administrator of the official site. He can't just let people bash away. And while he does delete some post, I don't feel that he does it to paint a flattering picture of BH and KJA's work. Clearly not everyone likes the new stuff, that is apparent even at DN. I don't claim to understand what goes on in the deletion/banning processes but Byron has never struck me as the "frothing" sort.


it is hard to comment on what has and has not been deleted unless you watch the site 24 hours a day. I have had stuff deleted that was just venting and put up with it. I have also had stuff deleted that should not have been deleted. I gave up trying to post there and asked Byron to delete my account.

Simon - have you had many posts deleted from DN? You have come from the supportive side to the new books so you have probably not seen the infuriating side that some of us had, for example as I understand it, Lisan al Gaib was banned from DN for something that he posted here!


That was a harsher example of the deletion binges he goes on, he deleted Ultra Spice and Dominos (probably took a look at the IP history), then went nuts and took out Lisan and Frybread too.
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Postby Omphalos » 25 Aug 2008 18:10

Simon wrote:But I think you guys should cut Byron some slack. He's the administrator of the official site. He can't just let people bash away. And while he does delete some post, I don't feel that he does it to paint a flattering picture of BH and KJA's work. Clearly not everyone likes the new stuff, that is apparent even at DN. I don't claim to understand what goes on in the deletion/banning processes but Byron has never struck me as the "frothing" sort.


Why the Hell not? He did it for years, the whole time seemingly agreeing with us on a lot of points, all the while winking at us and saying "you guys would be surprised if you knew what I thought!" Little did we really know that it is what he was told to think. Then all of a sudden KJA gets a bug up his butt and the people who actually drew new users to that board for doing what they had done all along get the boot. Not a good way to keep the peace. I have no sympathy for whatever happens to that board, and I personally hope that Byron someday regrets being two-faced. I mean, c'mon. You dont actually think that Hyppo and FannyAss and arnoldo are really gonna draw new users there, do you? Or that what is going on there now is worth the time to even register, do you? Its a vapid wasteland of idiocy, and "cut-him-some-slack" deserves to lord over it.

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Postby GamePlayer » 25 Aug 2008 18:37

I suppose in some way I might be jaded, but quite frankly I'm sick of trying to tell people why they are wrong. People have to come around on their own and figure things out for themselves. If they can't do that then no amount of persuasion, subtle or overt, is going to help them. You can't make people think or make people care, you can only offer your side of the story and let it stand.

Therein lies the tragedy of Dumbnovels: they don't permit is a dissenting opinion. Members are allowed to hear only one side of the story: the company line. Anything else is banned. Can I blame them, looking at it from a business point of view? Certainly not. I'd do the same damn thing if it were my company and money on the line. But even so, they don't accept their lot as such. DN and HLP still like to think of themselves as the heroes and reasonable, honest folk fighting those evil trolls of the internet. In reality they are just another snake-oil seller and don't like it when they are told otherwise. They like it even less when criticism is shared so freely and broadly to potential dupes...er "customers".

This is why the internet is demonized; why the film studios hate it; why publishers denounce it; why record companies despise it; why bad writers whine about it on their personal blogs. The internet is one expansive, all-reaching realm of dissenting opinion. What's "worse" is those dissenting opinions speak far louder than those towing the company line or even the mighty advertising machine. Obviously, this is not an ideal situation for the spin-doctors of our modern times :)

Personally, I'm fine with the denizens of Dumbnovels proclaiming Jac-TAU a haven for their hated heathens. It means these websites are serving the exact purpose for which they were created; as a check and balance to the propaganda spewed by officially sanctioned yes-men at officially sanctioned webholes like Dumbnovels.

Like I said, official websites have always sucked and apparently always will. A wise internet user should know to go to the fansites to get the straight dope. And if they don't like this fansite, they should make their own. This is the way the internet should work. In fact, it's very similar to the way business is SUPPOSED to work. But that's a whole other discussion :)
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Postby Hunchback Jack » 25 Aug 2008 18:39

A Thing of Eternity wrote:I think we just have a disagreement over where to draw the line between inspiration and plagiarism. I doubt we'll get any meaningful discussion done on the topic so I'll leave it be.


I was about to say the same thing. Whether you borrow ideas from other authors isn't good or bad in itself. It's how it's done that matters. Trying to characterize good from bad is pretty subjective.

For example, some people were irked by Simmons borrowing ideas from others for his Hyperion novels. I personally wasn't, as I thought the way he used the ideas was original, and the whole was greater than the sum of its parts, if you know what I mean.

HBJ

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Postby TheDukester » 25 Aug 2008 18:55

Simon wrote:He's the administrator of the official site. He can't just let people bash away. And while he does delete some post, I don't feel that he does it to paint a flattering picture of BH and KJA's work.

Oh, bullshit.

He's a petty tyrant who lacks the maturity to handle any sort of criticism, real or imagined. I wouldn't let him moderate a dog-fight.

He's gotten exactly what he deserves, though: that place is the biggest wasteland on the entire internet.
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Postby SandChigger » 25 Aug 2008 19:08

Image

Next time I'm in Ohio, Simon, I'll send you a few little jars of the above yuzu (a nice citrus fruit) lip balm.
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"

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Postby Rakis » 25 Aug 2008 22:33

SandChigger wrote:Image

Next time I'm in Ohio, Simon, I'll send you a few little jars of the above yuzu (a nice citrus fruit) lip balm.


Oh ! Oh! What's that for?! :P

:lol: :lol:
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Postby SandChigger » 26 Aug 2008 00:42

I'm not really sure.

Bint suggested it.

Something about your lips drying out and cracking.

When you have to open your mouth really wide.

To get it around something massive.

Repeatedly.
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Postby Omphalos » 26 Aug 2008 00:49

Like an ego? When you're trying to get a word in edgewise? Like that?

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Postby Lundse » 26 Aug 2008 02:32

GamePlayer wrote:I suppose in some way I might be jaded...

<snip>

But that's a whole other discussion :)


I second that. And remind readers that in order to have such a free internet where dissenting opinions can be heard without retribution from the shareholders who are hurt by the truth, we need: free software, strong crypto, hardware we actually control ourselves and the right to send packages over the airwaves (two down, two to go).

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Postby Simon » 26 Aug 2008 02:50

SimonH wrote:
Simon - have you had many posts deleted from DN? You have come from the supportive side to the new books so you have probably not seen the infuriating side that some of us had, for example as I understand it, Lisan al Gaib was banned from DN for something that he posted here!


Yes I have. I think the one I remember seeing edited was my rant at Skibum, I called him a Nazi or something because I misunderstood his post and thought he was ripping on a new member.

Some others were erased when whole topics were deleted but beyond those nothing else. My critical post (rare though they are) of certain story points have never been deleted.

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Postby Simon » 26 Aug 2008 03:00

SandChigger wrote:Image

Next time I'm in Ohio, Simon, I'll send you a few little jars of the above yuzu (a nice citrus fruit) lip balm.


:lol: Somebody needs a hug! :lol:

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Postby Serkanner » 26 Aug 2008 04:20

Simon wrote:The writing style is similar to what's been done with his Dune books,


Thank you. Know enough now.
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Postby SandChigger » 26 Aug 2008 05:09

NO! There's so MUCH MORE to tell!!!

:D

The writing style is the same (from what I've seen of Hidden Entire and Asses of Worlds).

The characters are flat and the science REALLY SUCKS...even worse than the vacuum of space...in which noone can hear you scream..."Kevin J. Anderson is a hack!"

As me dear sainted grandam might have opined, "That man can't write for shit...but if he were, he wouldn't even get a smell!"

:shock:
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Postby SimonH » 26 Aug 2008 05:47

Simon wrote:
SimonH wrote:
Simon - have you had many posts deleted from DN? You have come from the supportive side to the new books so you have probably not seen the infuriating side that some of us had, for example as I understand it, Lisan al Gaib was banned from DN for something that he posted here!


Yes I have. I think the one I remember seeing edited was my rant at Skibum, I called him a Nazi or something because I misunderstood his post and thought he was ripping on a new member.

Some others were erased when whole topics were deleted but beyond those nothing else. My critical post (rare though they are) of certain story points have never been deleted.


yep, so it sounds like you haven't had issue with the deletions. I had whole theads deleted when there was nothing inflamatory in my starting post.

You might think that people here are extreme in their views. But as I understand it, there's a heap of history that most new people are not aware of. For example - I'd love for Sandchigger to post more of KJA's email responses to his questions - I'm sure there are some on this site, but I can't find them at the moment. The attitude (in the limited amount I have seen) is not endearing.

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Postby SandChigger » 26 Aug 2008 06:39

Yeah, I need to get those emails up so everyone can see ALL of them. (Meaning, in their entirety.)

I've finally decided to stop using Japanese Eudora and go with Apple's Mail app. I've copied all my old mail over onto this machine, but haven't looked at importing them yet.

We'll see....
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Postby Seraphan » 26 Aug 2008 09:33

There's a heavy difference between trolling and criticism. Trolling is when you have mental 12 year old saying "Oh it sucks balls and you suck and everything sucks and your a fag", criticism is what i've seen from the members of this forum, they take the things that they dislike into arguments rather than ego statements, plus no posts are deleted.
My point being that most of what Byron took out wasnt bashing, it was simple criticism. Whether it was humorous or serious a customer has the right to complain about a given product, and a company that deletes those complaints are covering the hole with dirt.
Freedom of speech is the main reason why i dwell in this Forum and no matter your personal tastes on the novels Simon your always welcome here as well as posting your opinions. I dont find you to be a so called prequilite nor an OH, in fact i resent anyone that puts labels on individuals (Yeah i'm pointing at you Byron :evil: ). Everyone here is civilized (except orald, who i suspect is a serial rapist in disguise).
Chigger get that bitch working and post that crap as fast as you can :evil:
Last edited by Seraphan on 26 Aug 2008 09:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Freakzilla » 26 Aug 2008 09:43

SandChigger wrote:Yeah, I need to get those emails up so everyone can see ALL of them. (Meaning, in their entirety.)

I've finally decided to stop using Japanese Eudora and go with Apple's Mail app. I've copied all my old mail over onto this machine, but haven't looked at importing them yet.

We'll see....


I'd really like us to have that posted here, whenever you get a chance!

I'd forgotten all about that, those answers were so lame. :lol:
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Postby GamePlayer » 26 Aug 2008 12:50

lundse
Preach it, my brotha :)

SandChigger wrote:The characters are flat and the science REALLY SUCKS...even worse than the vacuum of space...in which noone can hear you scream..."Kevin J. Anderson is a hack!"


That's my chigga. Seriously, why would anyone read science fiction where the science fiction sucks? This is what I've never understood about these KJA/BH fan fiction exploitation novels. They add nothing new to the series except cliches and science we've all seen before in hundreds of better written stories, films or television shows.

A show with retro, naturalistic science fiction like BSG is actually more interesting than a thousand KJA-made uber-ain't-it-cool-technology cliches.
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Postby Hunchback Jack » 26 Aug 2008 14:32

SandChigger wrote:The writing style is the same (from what I've seen of Hidden Entire and Asses of Worlds).

The characters are flat and the science REALLY SUCKS...


Hmm. I was right. I wouldn't enjoy it.

HBJ

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Postby Hunchback Jack » 26 Aug 2008 14:41

Seraphan wrote:There's a heavy difference between trolling and criticism. Trolling is when you have mental 12 year old saying "Oh it sucks balls and you suck and everything sucks and your a fag", criticism is what i've seen from the members of this forum, they take the things that they dislike into arguments rather than ego statements, plus no posts are deleted.


Completely agree. If people are just trolling, then they should be banned. But if there are discussions about what people didn't like about the books, then that should be permitted.

It's occurred to me that if the point of the official web site is to be a marketing tool, then having a forum is not a great idea. If you invite discussion, but then weed out any posts that might deter people from reading the books, then the whole exercise is just a waste of time and effort for everyone.

One way I've seen this addressed well is on Stephen Donaldson's site. On his official site, there's no forum, just a "gradual interview" in which SRD will answer specific questions by fans. There's a link to the Kevin's Watch forum from his site, but there's no affiliation between the two. Kevin's Watch is pretty free about discussion, although they don't tolerate trolling at all. Both sites have value without compromising the other.

HBJ

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Postby Ampoliros » 26 Aug 2008 17:11

This is why the internet is demonized; why the film studios hate it; why publishers denounce it; why record companies despise it; why bad writers whine about it on their personal blogs. The internet is one expansive, all-reaching realm of dissenting opinion. What's "worse" is those dissenting opinions speak far louder than those towing the company line or even the mighty advertising machine. Obviously, this is not an ideal situation for the spin-doctors of our modern times Smile


I have to say, I do think Frank Herbert would consider the Internet the world's largest hypocrisy. I'm pretty sure the Internet would have been the "enemy of many faces" in Dune 7. Mainly because of this fact, he would have celebrated the dissenting opinion but would have laughed in our faces about how we plug in to a vast ocean, dump our opinion in a bottle and then walk away partially satisfied. He would have said "Where's the action? You're a bunch of water-fat whiners."

In our defense I would say the fact that most of us post here on Jacurutu and T(A)U at least once a day that we are taking the only action left open to us. But for the greater problems of the world at large, Frank is dead on.
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