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Lundse
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Postby Lundse » 25 Aug 2008 07:38

Simon wrote:I'm just not hip to the "HLP hate" (which let's face it, is the unspoken reason for this site).


Politeness, etc. aside then, for my part, the 'hate' stems from the complete disrespect for Frank Herbert and his creation. It goes far beyond bad writing and a difference of tastes; 'Sandworm of Dune' specifically tell us that Leto II and Frank Herberts view of religion, power, heroes, politics and ecology were all wrong. Using Herberts own creation in trying to destroy his message is
The 'hate' continues because of the arrogance of especially Kevin, and how the HLP has dealt with criticisms and discussion. This extends to brushing aside arguments to which one has no response with: 'And one of Frank's prime themes is to question what you know ...or think you know.'

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Postby Serkanner » 25 Aug 2008 10:06

I like a bit of hatred occasionally, clears the sinuses.
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Postby Seraphan » 25 Aug 2008 11:04

'Sandworm of Dune' specifically tell us that Leto II and Frank Herberts view of religion, power, heroes, politics and ecology were all wrong. Using Herberts own creation in trying to destroy his message


My number 1 reason of hate and the most important one of all. The other inconsistencies for me was a matter of liking the story or not, i never read them in comparison to FH's work, it was impossible. It was merelly something different, that is, until Hunters and Sandworms came.
First my brother buys Hunters for me as a gift. As i read it though, i found that it was unusually badly written but the final straw came when A Thing of Eternity posted in DN "My review of Sandworms", in wich he transcribed many parts of the novel.
I got more and more discusted with what the authors had done and no, it wasnt out of context. When the part in wich Leto II tells Sheeana that his milenia of tyranical rule was a mistake as well as the scaterring, my jaw literally fell. I felt cheated by them and the continuous nerve of saying that what they were writting is Dune launched me into fucking space.
Like i said once already Simon. If someone wrotte a sequel to The Lord of the Rings and in that novel Morgoth arises again and the heroes of middle earth recreate Sauron's master ring to save the day, everyone would seek out that guy and shoot him in his prunes. Since the idea is that power corrupts and not even frodo who is an innocent kind of creature is immune to it, the writter would be rendering the character's sacrifice in the originals as useless and a mistake.
That way, the 3 original works are taken out and shot behind a barn in order to make a cool novel filled with awsome battle discriptions and laughable atempts at witty dialogue.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 25 Aug 2008 12:06

Seraphan wrote: final straw came when A Thing of Eternity posted in DN "My review of Sandworms", in wich he transcribed many parts of the novel.


Alright! I was the final straw!

I'm with you, Sandworms put me over the edge, I just couldn't take it. Prior to that book I was just saddened by the new novels, I wasn't actually angry. It's one thing for them to misinterpret the Butlerian Jihad (in our opinion, we "could" be wrong), it's one thing for them to misunderstand so many medium sized things in the originals and make so many mistakes with the simple facts of the fictional universe, and it's one thing to have two far below par writers (and seriously, they are way below par. Everyone who likes them always says "they can't be compared to FH" but the truth is, if you put the books they write up against anyone else's, the difference in prose, character development and dialogue is unmistakably worse) continuing one of the most revered SF series of all time. It's quite another to watch them turn beloved characters into complete simpletons, and watch them completely turn the very ideas behind Dune upside down and backwards.

That said, I respect Simon's point of view on this (though I don't understand it), and that he handles talking about it in a mature way, which very few of the lovers of the prequels manage to do (including Byron who routinely resorts to name calling and deleting posts which prove him wrong). That said, Simon, if you like flash-bang, there are many far superior authors to choose from, like
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Freakzilla
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Postby Freakzilla » 25 Aug 2008 12:07

Simon wrote:I'm just not hip to the "HLP hate" (which let's face it, is the unspoken reason for this site).


It is not and I resent you saying that. I've wanted to start my own Dune fan forum since before I even knew there was an HLP. There isn't a lot of demand on the internet for Dune fan forums, there's usually only one really good one at a time. Over the years I've seen them come and go until the official forum was finaly started by the HLP (after the internet had been around for 20 years :roll: ). The official site isn't about discussion, it's a marketing tool. Their draconian politics stifle any open discussion and have earned them their hatred. It is not a coincidence that KJA/HLP haters congregate here, there just aren't many other places to go. I don't hate the HLP. I don't have time or energy for that, but I understand it and that point of view is welcome by me as well as any KJA fans who have the balls to stand up here. I will defend users from personal attacks but not from attacks on their opinions. In my opinion the new books aren't even worth discussion, however I have provided a forum here just for that. Not that I'm recommending it.
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Postby Hunchback Jack » 25 Aug 2008 14:20

I wouldn't say I hate either the HLP or KJA/BH. That's too strong.

I don't have a lot of respect for KJA/BH as writers, because I think they can't write a decent plot that makes sense, can't portray characters as anything but stereotypes, and can't sustain any kind of suspense or tension. This is independent of whether they are writing Dune or not. I didn't like much of the BJ trilogy because of the departures from the Dune universe, but I couldn't *finish* it because the writing was so poor. Similarly, I won't be reading Saga of the Seven Suns not because I "hate" KJA, but because based on his Dune work, I've concluded that I won't enjoy the experience.

Having said that though, I admit that I also don't respect KJA and BH as people, either. This disrespect *does* have to do with their writing in the Dune universe, and, like others here, it began with the publication of Dune 7, and the announcement of the Heroes series.

Firstly, Dune 7 raised many questions about how much they were really meeting FH's original intentions. Normally, that wouldn't be a consideration for me; I would have been happy to evaluate Dune 7 on its own merits. But this case, *they* raised the issue - they claimed to have an outline from FH himself, which they used to legitimise their work. Dune 7 is a radical departure in direction and themes from where Dune 6 appeared to be going, and included aspects from their previous novels that were wholly KJA/BH creations. So I think they were being deceptive.

Secondly, given that they are writing in the universe of a much-revered author, I would expect that they would:
1) respect the integrity of the original work, rather than trying to retconn their own creations into interquel novels
2) Take the time to write novels which, if they can't measure up to the originals, at least represent their *own* best work.
3) When inconsistencies or criticism is raised by fans of the originals, show some humility, rather than assuming that they, the authors, know better.

Instead, they are using the Dune universe as a vehicle for writing the kinds of novels they know how to write - space operas with whizz-bang battles, dashing heroes and evil villains - without respect for FH's own creations, themes or intentions. The Dune universe deserves better.

HBJ

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Postby Simon » 25 Aug 2008 15:17

SandChigger wrote:So...this is where you spout one of your famous platitudes about everybody having their own opinion and view and experiences and...and...cue the kumbaya. :roll:


Nope. The whole POV thing goes without saying at this point in the dialogue.

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Postby Omphalos » 25 Aug 2008 15:47

Freakzilla wrote:
Simon wrote:I'm just not hip to the "HLP hate" (which let's face it, is the unspoken reason for this site).


It is not and I resent you saying that. I've wanted to start my own Dune fan forum since before I even knew there was an HLP. There isn't a lot of demand on the internet for Dune fan forums, there's usually only one really good one at a time. Over the years I've seen them come and go until the official forum was finaly started by the HLP (after the internet had been around for 20 years :roll: ). The official site isn't about discussion, it's a marketing tool. Their draconian politics stifle any open discussion and have earned them their hatred. It is not a coincidence that KJA/HLP haters congregate here, there just aren't many other places to go. I don't hate the HLP. I don't have time or energy for that, but I understand it and that point of view is welcome by me as well as any KJA fans who have the balls to stand up here. I will defend users from personal attacks but not from attacks on their opinions. In my opinion the new books aren't even worth discussion, however I have provided a forum here just for that. Not that I'm recommending it.


Word!

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Postby Simon » 25 Aug 2008 16:13

Seraphan wrote:
'Sandworm of Dune' specifically tell us that Leto II and Frank Herberts view of religion, power, heroes, politics and ecology were all wrong. Using Herberts own creation in trying to destroy his message


My number 1 reason of hate and the most important one of all. The other inconsistencies for me was a matter of liking the story or not, i never read them in comparison to FH's work, it was impossible. It was merelly something different, that is, until Hunters and Sandworms came.
First my brother buys Hunters for me as a gift. As i read it though, i found that it was unusually badly written but the final straw came when A Thing of Eternity posted in DN "My review of Sandworms", in wich he transcribed many parts of the novel.
I got more and more discusted with what the authors had done and no, it wasnt out of context. When the part in wich Leto II tells Sheeana that his milenia of tyranical rule was a mistake as well as the scaterring, my jaw literally fell. I felt cheated by them and the continuous nerve of saying that what they were writting is Dune launched me into fucking space.
Like i said once already Simon. If someone wrotte a sequel to The Lord of the Rings and in that novel Morgoth arises again and the heroes of middle earth recreate Sauron's master ring to save the day, everyone would seek out that guy and shoot him in his prunes. Since the idea is that power corrupts and not even frodo who is an innocent kind of creature is immune to it, the writter would be rendering the character's sacrifice in the originals as useless and a mistake.
That way, the 3 original works are taken out and shot behind a barn in order to make a cool novel filled with awsome battle discriptions and laughable atempts at witty dialogue.


See, I get that. But I've never felt that BH or KJA have utterly destroyed the series, they just aren't FH. Some of the stuff they added I found really good.

I for instance always took the Butlerian Jihad to be a conflict of Men vs. Machine, not as Men vs. Men with machines. So their interpretation fit right in with what I expected, the Cymeks explained why their was such a taboo against cyborgs, why machines that could reason were forbidden, and best of all (as I've said before) I really liked how they handled the rift between Houses Atreides and Harkonnen.

Hunters and Sandworms were good books to but always had a slim chance of meeting the hype. I enjoyed them but at the same time can see why many of you didn't. I've seen the reviews and even agree with certain stuff. On reexamination, Norma was OK in the Legends series but was a fifth wheel in the climax, I never felt like Norma had enough contact with Ominus in the Legends series to warrant her seeming "grudge" with him, and "magic trick" at the end wasn't what I was expecting either.

However I found Erasmus' end a bit more thought provoking then I'd expected. I thought for sure that his dismissal of that "look of surprise" the cook he killed in TBJ gave him was going to play into Duncan's killing him during DUNE 7 (as it was known at that point). Instead the better nature of Erasmus came through and he helped Duncan make the peace. I'm not sure if that's what FH would have done but it is what it is, dig or don't, I do.

For me "the answer" has been the acceptance of two time-lines. I know some of you feel that "there can be only one" ( :lol: slaps knee, get it? NOW the Highlander series, THERE is some truly awful continuity) so more power to you. I'm an odd man out, I like both versions yet detest the extremes. I'm not down with "FH or nothing" and I'm certainly not happy with "FH hurts my brain, the new books are better".

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Postby Simon » 25 Aug 2008 16:24

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Seraphan wrote: final straw came when A Thing of Eternity posted in DN "My review of Sandworms", in wich he transcribed many parts of the novel.


Alright! I was the final straw!

I'm with you, Sandworms put me over the edge, I just couldn't take it. Prior to that book I was just saddened by the new novels, I wasn't actually angry. It's one thing for them to misinterpret the Butlerian Jihad (in our opinion, we "could" be wrong), it's one thing for them to misunderstand so many medium sized things in the originals and make so many mistakes with the simple facts of the fictional universe, and it's one thing to have two far below par writers (and seriously, they are way below par. Everyone who likes them always says "they can't be compared to FH" but the truth is, if you put the books they write up against anyone else's, the difference in prose, character development and dialogue is unmistakably worse) continuing one of the most revered SF series of all time. It's quite another to watch them turn beloved characters into complete simpletons, and watch them completely turn the very ideas behind Dune upside down and backwards.

That said, I respect Simon's point of view on this (though I don't understand it), and that he handles talking about it in a mature way, which very few of the lovers of the prequels manage to do (including Byron who routinely resorts to name calling and deleting posts which prove him wrong). That said, Simon, if you like flash-bang, there are many far superior authors to choose from, like


Thing here is an excellent example of what I'd like to see more of, your not any sort of new Dune fan and even went out in "a blaze of glory", yet have always been very polite even though you don't get my acceptance of something you find totally unacceptable. No one's singing around a camp fire here, were just treating each other with respect, plain and simple. 8) (Give me a hug Chig ::opens arms:: :lol: )

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Postby Freakzilla » 25 Aug 2008 16:28

I think the "FH or nothing" attitude is extreme. Many of us were at first eager and excited about having new Dune books to read...

...until we read them.

I would buy more Dune books if they gave another author a shot at it.

But I doubt that will happen until KJA dies, lest he expose the notes hoax and discredit the HLP..
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Postby Freakzilla » 25 Aug 2008 16:34

Simon wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Seraphan wrote: final straw came when A Thing of Eternity posted in DN "My review of Sandworms", in wich he transcribed many parts of the novel.


Alright! I was the final straw!

I'm with you, Sandworms put me over the edge, I just couldn't take it. Prior to that book I was just saddened by the new novels, I wasn't actually angry. It's one thing for them to misinterpret the Butlerian Jihad (in our opinion, we "could" be wrong), it's one thing for them to misunderstand so many medium sized things in the originals and make so many mistakes with the simple facts of the fictional universe, and it's one thing to have two far below par writers (and seriously, they are way below par. Everyone who likes them always says "they can't be compared to FH" but the truth is, if you put the books they write up against anyone else's, the difference in prose, character development and dialogue is unmistakably worse) continuing one of the most revered SF series of all time. It's quite another to watch them turn beloved characters into complete simpletons, and watch them completely turn the very ideas behind Dune upside down and backwards.

That said, I respect Simon's point of view on this (though I don't understand it), and that he handles talking about it in a mature way, which very few of the lovers of the prequels manage to do (including Byron who routinely resorts to name calling and deleting posts which prove him wrong). That said, Simon, if you like flash-bang, there are many far superior authors to choose from, like


Thing here is an excellent example of what I'd like to see more of, your not any sort of new Dune fan and even went out in "a blaze of glory", yet have always been very polite even though you don't get my acceptance of something you find totally unacceptable. No one's singing around a camp fire here, were just treating each other with respect, plain and simple. 8) (Give me a hug Chig ::opens arms:: :lol: )


I think you'll find that anyone who presents their opinions in a mature and intelligent manner will be treated with respect, even if they like the new books.

At least I would like to think so.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 25 Aug 2008 16:35

Freakzilla wrote:I think the "FH or nothing" attitude is extreme. Many of us were at first eager and excited about having new Dune books to read...

...until we read them.

I would buy more Dune books if they gave another author a shot at it.

But I doubt that will happen until KJA dies, lest he expose the notes hoax and discredit the HLP..


If they actually went and found a respected author to take on Dune I'd certainly give it a go. I was really exited to read the new Dune books, I bought TBJ immediately after I finished ChD... my exitement didn't last long.
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Postby Simon » 25 Aug 2008 16:47

Freakzilla wrote:
Simon wrote:I'm just not hip to the "HLP hate" (which let's face it, is the unspoken reason for this site).


It is not and I resent you saying that. I've wanted to start my own Dune fan forum since before I even knew there was an HLP. There isn't a lot of demand on the internet for Dune fan forums, there's usually only one really good one at a time. Over the years I've seen them come and go until the official forum was finaly started by the HLP (after the internet had been around for 20 years :roll: ). The official site isn't about discussion, it's a marketing tool. Their draconian politics stifle any open discussion and have earned them their hatred. It is not a coincidence that KJA/HLP haters congregate here, there just aren't many other places to go. I don't hate the HLP. I don't have time or energy for that, but I understand it and that point of view is welcome by me as well as any KJA fans who have the balls to stand up here. I will defend users from personal attacks but not from attacks on their opinions. In my opinion the new books aren't even worth discussion, however I have provided a forum here just for that. Not that I'm recommending it.



No doubt, DN is a place more for "the enthusiastic fan" as opposed to the discontented. Nothing odd there. You could expect that from any company sponsored sight. I'm sure if there is a "General Mills" blog somewhere and I show up posting "Your cereal sucks" I'd get the boot. Which is why it is very good of you to take the time to set this site up, it's good that there are unofficial sites where one can speak freely. Even if I don't totally agree with them :wink:

Seriously though, thanks for taking the time! :)

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Postby Omphalos » 25 Aug 2008 16:51

Simon wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Seraphan wrote: final straw came when A Thing of Eternity posted in DN "My review of Sandworms", in wich he transcribed many parts of the novel.


Alright! I was the final straw!

I'm with you, Sandworms put me over the edge, I just couldn't take it. Prior to that book I was just saddened by the new novels, I wasn't actually angry. It's one thing for them to misinterpret the Butlerian Jihad (in our opinion, we "could" be wrong), it's one thing for them to misunderstand so many medium sized things in the originals and make so many mistakes with the simple facts of the fictional universe, and it's one thing to have two far below par writers (and seriously, they are way below par. Everyone who likes them always says "they can't be compared to FH" but the truth is, if you put the books they write up against anyone else's, the difference in prose, character development and dialogue is unmistakably worse) continuing one of the most revered SF series of all time. It's quite another to watch them turn beloved characters into complete simpletons, and watch them completely turn the very ideas behind Dune upside down and backwards.

That said, I respect Simon's point of view on this (though I don't understand it), and that he handles talking about it in a mature way, which very few of the lovers of the prequels manage to do (including Byron who routinely resorts to name calling and deleting posts which prove him wrong). That said, Simon, if you like flash-bang, there are many far superior authors to choose from, like


Thing here is an excellent example of what I'd like to see more of, your not any sort of new Dune fan and even went out in "a blaze of glory", yet have always been very polite even though you don't get my acceptance of something you find totally unacceptable. No one's singing around a camp fire here, were just treating each other with respect, plain and simple. 8) (Give me a hug Chig ::opens arms:: :lol: )


Let's not confuse a hatred of the new books with a loathing of the way Bryon runs DN. Blazes of glory have nothing to do with KJA and BH and their sick literary travesties. That is all about the Fuhrer and his idiotic board management policies. And in that sense, they are entirely appropriate as acts of protest.

Same goes for sock puppets over at DN. If that butt Byron keeps deleting valid criticism and comments about those shitty books then he will probably have l earn to deal with sock puppet attacks.

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Postby Hunchback Jack » 25 Aug 2008 16:54

A Thing of Eternity wrote:If they actually went and found a respected author to take on Dune I'd certainly give it a go.


Agreed. I gave KJA/BH a go with Dune 7 even after not finishing the BJ trilogy, hoping that they would bring the series to a satisfying conclusion.

If a writer that I enjoy and respect chose to write a Dune novel, I'd be first in line to buy it. I might balk at an interquel novel, just because I think its hard to justify the need, and harder to write one without introducing inconsistencies. But even then, I'd probably still give the author the benefit of the doubt.

HBJ

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Postby Freakzilla » 25 Aug 2008 17:01

Simon wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Simon wrote:I'm just not hip to the "HLP hate" (which let's face it, is the unspoken reason for this site).


It is not and I resent you saying that. I've wanted to start my own Dune fan forum since before I even knew there was an HLP. There isn't a lot of demand on the internet for Dune fan forums, there's usually only one really good one at a time. Over the years I've seen them come and go until the official forum was finaly started by the HLP (after the internet had been around for 20 years :roll: ). The official site isn't about discussion, it's a marketing tool. Their draconian politics stifle any open discussion and have earned them their hatred. It is not a coincidence that KJA/HLP haters congregate here, there just aren't many other places to go. I don't hate the HLP. I don't have time or energy for that, but I understand it and that point of view is welcome by me as well as any KJA fans who have the balls to stand up here. I will defend users from personal attacks but not from attacks on their opinions. In my opinion the new books aren't even worth discussion, however I have provided a forum here just for that. Not that I'm recommending it.



No doubt, DN is a place more for "the enthusiastic fan" as opposed to the discontented. Nothing odd there. You could expect that from any company sponsored sight. I'm sure if there is a "General Mills" blog somewhere and I show up posting "Your cereal sucks" I'd get the boot. Which is why it is very good of you to take the time to set this site up, it's good that there are unofficial sites where one can speak freely. Even if I don't totally agree with them :wink:

Seriously though, thanks for taking the time! :)


The timing of this site opening had nothing to do with Dune Novels censorship, but with Arrakeen closing. People in the first round of bannings at DN migrated to Arrakeen, then when Arrakeen closed, not long afterwards I decided to do this because we had lost our Dune FAN forum.
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Postby Simon » 25 Aug 2008 17:04

Hunchback Jack wrote:I wouldn't say I hate either the HLP or KJA/BH. That's too strong.

I don't have a lot of respect for KJA/BH as writers, because I think they can't write a decent plot that makes sense, can't portray characters as anything but stereotypes, and can't sustain any kind of suspense or tension. This is independent of whether they are writing Dune or not. I didn't like much of the BJ trilogy because of the departures from the Dune universe, but I couldn't *finish* it because the writing was so poor. Similarly, I won't be reading Saga of the Seven Suns not because I "hate" KJA, but because based on his Dune work, I've concluded that I won't enjoy the experience.

Having said that though, I admit that I also don't respect KJA and BH as people, either. This disrespect *does* have to do with their writing in the Dune universe, and, like others here, it began with the publication of Dune 7, and the announcement of the Heroes series.

Firstly, Dune 7 raised many questions about how much they were really meeting FH's original intentions. Normally, that wouldn't be a consideration for me; I would have been happy to evaluate Dune 7 on its own merits. But this case, *they* raised the issue - they claimed to have an outline from FH himself, which they used to legitimise their work. Dune 7 is a radical departure in direction and themes from where Dune 6 appeared to be going, and included aspects from their previous novels that were wholly KJA/BH creations. So I think they were being deceptive.

Secondly, given that they are writing in the universe of a much-revered author, I would expect that they would:
1) respect the integrity of the original work, rather than trying to retconn their own creations into interquel novels
2) Take the time to write novels which, if they can't measure up to the originals, at least represent their *own* best work.
3) When inconsistencies or criticism is raised by fans of the originals, show some humility, rather than assuming that they, the authors, know better.

Instead, they are using the Dune universe as a vehicle for writing the kinds of novels they know how to write - space operas with whizz-bang battles, dashing heroes and evil villains - without respect for FH's own creations, themes or intentions. The Dune universe deserves better.

HBJ


KJA's Saga of the Seven Suns was actually very good. :)
It wasn't DUNE but I enjoyed, it was a great space opera. If that isn't your thing then, yeah, your not going to like it but if it is, I'd give it a chance, you may even be surprised.

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Postby Freakzilla » 25 Aug 2008 17:15

Simon wrote:KJA's Saga of the Seven Suns was actually very good. :)
It wasn't DUNE but I enjoyed, it was a great space opera. If that isn't your thing then, yeah, your not going to like it but if it is, I'd give it a chance, you may even be surprised.


An idea he stole from Isaac Asimov's Nightfall. I don't think the guy has ever had an original thought.
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Postby Hunchback Jack » 25 Aug 2008 17:20

Simon, I agree that KJA being a "good writer" or not (or how much that bothers you), is very subjective. I don't think there's anything wrong with KJA writing the Seven Suns; I just won't read them. :) The other matter of KJA/BH's integrity with respect to the Dune universe is less subjective, I think.

One thing I like about this forum (granted, I haven't been here long) is that while there's a lot of negativity about the new novels, I don't think there's any chance of someone being banned for liking them, or for being very vocal about liking them.

HBJ
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 25 Aug 2008 17:21

Simon wrote:KJA's Saga of the Seven Suns was actually very good. :)
It wasn't DUNE but I enjoyed, it was a great space opera. If that isn't your thing then, yeah, your not going to like it but if it is, I'd give it a chance, you may even be surprised.


Would you say the prose, character development (not the quality of the characters, the quality of how they are shown to the reader) and the dialogue in the SotSS is:
A - About the same as the recent KJABH books?
B - Better than the recent KJABH books?
C - Worse than the recent KJABH books?

Bit of a loaded question obviously. :wink:
I know I promised you and Byron I'd read one of those just to give it a try, but I'm honestly just not very enthusiastic about it. Especially considering that every single plot point and worldbuilding feature I've heard of so far has been done at least once before (plus the name of the alien race, which is almost a direct steal from Ian M Banks' Consider Phlebas)

And I do like a good Space Opera every now and again as a bit of a lighter read, I've really enjoyed everything I've read by Alastair Reynolds for example.

One thing I like about this forum (granted, I haven't been here long) is that while there's a lot of negativity about the new novels, I don't think there's any chance of someone being banned for liking them, or for being very vocal about liking them.
HBJ


The nail has been hit on the head.
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Postby Ampoliros » 25 Aug 2008 17:29

An idea he stole from Isaac Asimov's Nightfall. I don't think the guy has ever had an original thought.


The nomad resource gatherers are ripoffs of the Fremen; and ripping off the Fremen isn't even an original idea...

Hellhole sounds like a ripoff of Whedon's Firefly and Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. But, you know, with alien technology. And 3 books to tell the whole story instead of 1.
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Postby Hunchback Jack » 25 Aug 2008 17:29

A Thing of Eternity wrote:And I do like a good Space Opera every now and again as a bit of a lighter read, I've really enjoyed everything I've read by Alastair Reynolds for example.


Or Banks, for that matter. His SF is definitely in the "fun space opera" realm, but he knows how to show not tell, his dialogue is witty yet realistic, and his use of language is breathtaking.

Better stop, or I'll rave about Banks all day.

The nail has been hit on the head.


Thanks! Just saying what others have said before me, though.

HBJ

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Postby Simon » 25 Aug 2008 17:42

Hunchback Jack wrote:Simon, I agree that KJA being a "good writer" or not (or how much that bothers you), is very subjective. I don't think there's anything wrong with KJA writing the Seven Suns; I just won't read them. :) The other matter of KJA/BH's integrity with respect to the Dune universe is less subjective, I think.

One thing I like about this forum (granted, I haven't been here long) is that while there's a lot of negativity about the new novels, I don't think there's any chance of someone being banned for liking them, or for being very vocal about liking them.

HBJ


I agree and it's appreciated. But I think you guys should cut Byron some slack. He's the administrator of the official site. He can't just let people bash away. And while he does delete some post, I don't feel that he does it to paint a flattering picture of BH and KJA's work. Clearly not everyone likes the new stuff, that is apparent even at DN. I don't claim to understand what goes on in the deletion/banning processes but Byron has never struck me as the "frothing" sort.

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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 25 Aug 2008 18:01

Simon wrote:
Hunchback Jack wrote:Simon, I agree that KJA being a "good writer" or not (or how much that bothers you), is very subjective. I don't think there's anything wrong with KJA writing the Seven Suns; I just won't read them. :) The other matter of KJA/BH's integrity with respect to the Dune universe is less subjective, I think.

One thing I like about this forum (granted, I haven't been here long) is that while there's a lot of negativity about the new novels, I don't think there's any chance of someone being banned for liking them, or for being very vocal about liking them.

HBJ


I agree and it's appreciated. But I think you guys should cut Byron some slack. He's the administrator of the official site. He can't just let people bash away. And while he does delete some post, I don't feel that he does it to paint a flattering picture of BH and KJA's work. Clearly not everyone likes the new stuff, that is apparent even at DN. I don't claim to understand what goes on in the deletion/banning processes but Byron has never struck me as the "frothing" sort.


I would agree with that - except for the fact that I don't have enough fingers to count the number of times he deleted posts I made which were 100% on topic and in no way insulted anyone, simple debate posts. At the same time he'll fling insults and wildly attempt to derail conversations. I certainly do understand where he's coming from, but I suspect that he's just gotten frustrated and doesn't care anymore and as such just deletes like crazy. I thought it was cool getting to talk to FH's grandson, someone with an inside take on the books, and I sent him a PM telling him that if I ever said anything he thought crossed the line (on either website) to let me know and I'd edit it and publicly apologize - he never did let me know, he just deleted without explanation. I really do respect that he has to back up the new authors, and that he can't allow certain things, but his methods are crazy.

I gave him the benefit of the doubt for the first 5 or 6 posts which were deleted for no reason (I PMed him about it and he said I was derailing the conversation... by answering questions politely?). I "blazed" for, as Omph said, no reason to do with the new authors, but to let Byron know that I was no longer interested in debating handicapped by deletion with him.

If you watch him carefully you will see that one person will make a deletion worthy (according to the rules of the site, not my opinion) post, and he'll start with that and then for some reason go nuts and delete 10 posts from other people in the same thread and others, even if they were saying nothing negative or off topic. It's truly bizarre and I've seen him do it at least 5 separate times.
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