Creating a Dune wargame: INFO NEEDED!!!

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inhuien
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Postby inhuien » 24 Apr 2008 04:31

These may have been mentioned already but I can't be F'd to reread the whole thread. What aboot Atomics and No-Ships, oh and here's a goodie Worms 8)
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Postby malika » 24 Apr 2008 06:21

orald wrote:Really? I do remember lots of explosions, zooming bullets and "wooosh" sounds. :?


You do know that they do this in movies as some sort of "artistic licence" right? I mean...how dull would a movie be if everything remained completely silent because there is no air in space. If I remember correctly Stanley Kubrick did something along those lines in Space Oddessey 2001, but dear God...that movie was sooooooooo slow and never ending (cool movie though)!

But you get the point I'm trying to make I think. :wink:

You've also got armor of some type(mentioned in HoD and Ch:D) and armored(?) ground cars. Though the later wouldn't even defend against a lasgun so...makes you wonder what good this armor does them.

Why not run around naked because a lasgun will penetrate anything anyways. :P The lasgun isn't the only weapon in Dune, there are other types of weapons which are probably more common which are unable to penetrate the armour of the armoured ground car. Perhaps the term "armoured ground car" is used to specify that it's a military vehicle. :wink: it would provide defence against stuff like projectile weapons and probably also grenades and stuff like that while capable of moving at greater speeds than running.

These may have been mentioned already but I can't be F'd to reread the whole thread. What aboot Atomics and No-Ships, oh and here's a goodie Worms

Depending on what kind of scale you want this game to have I think Atomics and No-Ships would simply be too large, unless the scale of this game were to be interplanetary.

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Postby orald » 24 Apr 2008 06:51

malika wrote:You do know that they do this in movies as some sort of "artistic licence" right? I mean...how dull would a movie be if everything remained completely silent because there is no air in space. If I remember correctly Stanley Kubrick did something along those lines in Space Oddessey 2001, but dear God...that movie was sooooooooo slow and never ending (cool movie though)!

But you get the point I'm trying to make I think.

Look up at that post again, you might notice this little line:
orald in his infinite wisdom wrote:*Then we'll have one heck of a boring, quiet movie. :P


I only mentioned that lasguns will easily cook those vehicles so the term "armored" wouldn't mislead people.
Those armored cars aren't really what you'd call military grade armor, it's more like a futuristic humvee in terms of protection(i.e don't expect it to stop anything byond small arms fire).
They had other kinds too, ones mentioned to be in orbit(so I'm guessing those are more like massive armored gun emplacements, not really tank-like and agile), though they could be fielded on the ground(something the HM on Gammu didn't care for).

Atomics...well those won't be used like Brian's anus, more like KJA's brain.
Figure it out. :wink:

And no-ships are for space battles. At 140 meters(~450 feet I think) diamter for the very smallest they're way too big to enter the atmosphere for anything but a clumsy landing.
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Postby Freakzilla » 24 Apr 2008 06:55

Didn't Teg land one on top of Barony?
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Postby orald » 24 Apr 2008 07:24

I don't think it was a no-ship.

They do have what we'd consider "big" ships for atmospheric fighting, but I don't think no-ships operate inside, or at least not fire.
He might've been in a no-ship command ship, but that was in the rear(grounded? it'll be a struggle to keep it up during all the fighting, it's meant for outer space).

And he just hovered/flew above it, schorching everything on the top(where all the big-shots who were in with the HM were), not land it.
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Postby inhuien » 24 Apr 2008 07:43

malika wrote:Depending on what kind of scale you want this game to have I think Atomics and No-Ships would simply be too large, unless the scale of this game were to be interplanetary.


The scale of play is up to you baby it's your mod/TC but there use would hardly be common place I'm sure and can't you see the tactical use of No-Ships? They have other uses than purely ordinance delivery.

No takers on the WORMS?

anyway, I rolled 6 and a 2 and he rolled 4 and 1 :!: :P
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Postby Freakzilla » 24 Apr 2008 08:04

orald wrote:I don't think it was a no-ship.

They do have what we'd consider "big" ships for atmospheric fighting, but I don't think no-ships operate inside, or at least not fire.
He might've been in a no-ship command ship, but that was in the rear(grounded? it'll be a struggle to keep it up during all the fighting, it's meant for outer space).

And he just hovered/flew above it, schorching everything on the top(where all the big-shots who were in with the HM were), not land it.


They could use suspensors to hover or decellerate durring landing, but your right, they don't use no-ships for atmospheric combat.

That's what 'thopters are for.
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Postby malika » 24 Apr 2008 09:52

inhuien wrote:
malika wrote:Depending on what kind of scale you want this game to have I think Atomics and No-Ships would simply be too large, unless the scale of this game were to be interplanetary.


The scale of play is up to you baby it's your mod/TC but there use would hardly be common place I'm sure and can't you see the tactical use of No-Ships? They have other uses than purely ordinance delivery.

No takers on the WORMS?

anyway, I rolled 6 and a 2 and he rolled 4 and 1 :!: :P


The idea I had for scale was probably along the lines of a small skirmish game, so squad based, no more than around 10 figures on each side. It's easy to add detailed rules for units, equipment, etc. when dealing with just a few units. That and the fact that one wouldn't have to model hundreds of units to make it fitting. Atomics and such would have to be used when dealing with games on a way larger scale such as interplanetary warfare I think. As for the Worms, for games taking place on Arrakis this could be very cool, but still too large for simply on the tabletop, perhaps that one has to keep moving constantly or to safe ground or else the Worm gets them! :twisted:

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Postby orald » 24 Apr 2008 10:27

10 soldiers each? What about sardaukar vs normal house toops? They're worth 10 soldiers each, so a more balanced fight would have to be 10:100.
The Fremen are obviously worth more since they eat sarduakars for breakfast.

Now start painting 'em Harko troops! :twisted:
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Postby The Sons of Idaho » 24 Apr 2008 19:43

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Battlestar is the only scifi where I've ever seen the producers get it through their heads that sound requires AIR.


I think it was on Babylon 5 that there was a scene where people inside the space station heard the sounds of a space battle outside and commented on it. I couldn't believe a Sci-fi wrter overlooked this (and this was not for artistic effect for the viewer's sake - the characters actually heard it). Still a good show, over all though.

This is one of the things I love about Battletar Galactica - the realistic space combat. Sure they have sound effects sometimes, but then they deliberatley mute the sound at appropriate times to show the viewer how it really sounds. And the zero-g/vacuum manuvering is freakin cool - maneuvering thrusters and such that were already mentioned.
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Postby orald » 25 Apr 2008 01:17

Well, if the explosion was really close it could vibrate the structure(space-station etc) and they'll hear something, no?
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Postby SandChigger » 25 Apr 2008 03:17

Even though the vacuum of space isn't complete, there wouldn't be enough mass to transmit the vibrations, right? But if close enough and material from the exploding object had enough inertia and hit against the station hull, that could potentially be heard.

I've never really understood the concept of shock waves in outer space, to be honest. :?

But shock waves from (super)novas are supposed to be one of the forces that helps speed up the planetary-system-forming compression process in gas nebulae.

(There's also something called a bow shock, FWIW. Illustration here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Voya ... region.jpg)
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Postby orald » 25 Apr 2008 03:42

Was thinking more in terms of close enough and explosion big enough that gas/debris from the explosion hit the hull.
But that'll have to be a big and close one to not have the gas disperse enough(debris will just make metalic clangs).

I'm not sure I want to look at anything "scientific" that came from ST. :?
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Postby malika » 25 Apr 2008 04:33

orald wrote:10 soldiers each? What about sardaukar vs normal house toops? They're worth 10 soldiers each, so a more balanced fight would have to be 10:100.
The Fremen are obviously worth more since they eat sarduakars for breakfast.

Now start painting 'em Harko troops! :twisted:


There lies the problem. Fighting battles from Heretics of Dune might then be somewhat easier to deal with. Yes the beginning of the book mentions that wars have decreased and all that, however the Honoured Matres are coming and beating the Bene Gesserit back further and further. They have practically all been upgraded to a certain extend, you would have elite Bene Gesserits and Honoured Matres while still keeping standard human soldiers.

But yeah...Warspike primarily works on tactics and strategies, not so much on game balance, it's more of a "battle simulator" than a "wargame" in the conventional sense. And even while a Sardaukar is way stronger and faster than a normal soldier, he could still be beaten by a normal soldier. It all depends on tactics of course. But to figure all those things out one would have to know how strong/fast/skilled a Sardaukar would be compared to a normal soldier. Of course we could speculate on that one, but then it would still be a fan's interpretation (which this is game is probably partly going to be) meaning the more "accurate" Dune fans will be pissed off. :(

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Postby orald » 25 Apr 2008 05:16

you would have elite Bene Gesserits and Honoured Matres while still keeping standard human soldiers.

Adepta Sororitas and Imperial Guard? :D

I had to search Wiki' for the first name, but I've been reading info there about WH/WH40K for the fun of it.
40K is way cool. 8) We need a damn movie already.

OK, thing is, i'm having trouble thinking of Dune as a wargame because the HM are:
1. Numerous- outnumbering the BG tens of times.
2. Better fighters- yes, they ARE better and faster.

Considering this, the BG have no chance. Even in the books they had some good surprise attack but eventually got smacked by the HM's own surprise attack. The BG "lost".

You'll have to have very favorable odds for a BG win in such a wargame.

EDIT: Speaking of 40K...DAAAAIUM... :shock:
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Postby malika » 25 Apr 2008 06:54

Adepta Sororitas and Imperial Guard? Very Happy

I had to search Wiki' for the first name, but I've been reading info there about WH/WH40K for the fun of it.
40K is way cool. Cool We need a damn movie already.

Recognising the Dune stuff yet? :wink: By the way...40k has been suffering from the same problems as Dune when it comes to crappy writers, probably the reason why the Anargo Sector Project was started in the first place. Just a bunch of fans trying to show that it doesn't take "official writers", big budgets and overly fancy units/weapons to create an interesting version of the 40k universe.

OK, thing is, i'm having trouble thinking of Dune as a wargame because the HM are:
1. Numerous- outnumbering the BG tens of times.
2. Better fighters- yes, they ARE better and faster.

Numbers are a big factor, but not every battle was an immediate defeat for the BG. The games could take place before the battle after which Murbella commits her coup.

While the HM are better and faster fighters, this would primarily be a thing for hand to hand combat, and while this is the primary was of fighting in the Duniverse there is also mention of ranged combat.

You'll have to have very favorable odds for a BG win in such a wargame.

I think what hit the BG the hardest was the fact that this quick attack came as a surprise, they didn't expect the HM to hit so hard and well.

But yeah...you do make a good point though. Perhaps it might be better to explore stuff taking place before the time of Leto II. This would be wars between Houses, the Sardaukar fighting around, Fremen attacking Harkonnens or even Paul's Jihad. And while Fremen were superior, still 60 billion (if I remember correctly) people died during those 12 years.

Same point as with the Heretics of Dune era war, while we know how the story goes this would enable players to re-enact the battles and while using the same units with the same existing skills they possess and such the battle could end way differently. So the Duniverse is used as a setting, the game would not determine the storyline or something like that.

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Postby orald » 25 Apr 2008 09:32

Aren't WH/40K novels just simple pulp writing? Even if I think the game itself, as in the units, look, background etc is awsome, I wouldn't touch that pulp novels with a 10 foot stick.

Well, anyway, one of the problems is that FH was never very specific about the military forces in the Duniverse. IDK how you guys come up with stats and skills for units, but I couldn't figure out how to do it faithfully for most of them- there's just nothing more than a name mentioned most of the times. No armament, armor grade etc.
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Postby malika » 25 Apr 2008 09:47

Aren't WH/40K novels just simple pulp writing? Even if I think the game itself, as in the units, look, background etc is awsome, I wouldn't touch that pulp novels with a 10 foot stick.

Totally agree with you there!

Well, anyway, one of the problems is that FH was never very specific about the military forces in the Duniverse. IDK how you guys come up with stats and skills for units, but I couldn't figure out how to do it faithfully for most of them- there's just nothing more than a name mentioned most of the times. No armament, armor grade etc.

We don't have stats and stuff yet for the units. But yeah the standard soldier will be using standard human stats I guess. Then it would be us interpreting the Dune weapons/upgrades. For example Sardaukar, how strong can a human become by purely training and mental conditioning? So yeah a Sardaukar would be very powerful, but still humanly possible. So it would be a combination of the information FH offered us readers and some logic/science/common sense.

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Postby SandChigger » 25 Apr 2008 11:20

orald wrote:I'm not sure I want to look at anything "scientific" that came from ST. :?

:?: :?: :?:

It wasn't that Voyager. It was the real one. :roll:
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Postby orald » 25 Apr 2008 11:27

Well I'll be damned if I'm going to click any link you give!

It probably leads to some gay puppy-sex site. :shock:
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Postby SandChigger » 25 Apr 2008 11:36

It's a raw URL, pasted into the comment as is, nubbin, so what you see is what you get. :roll:

(And with this boardware, you can always open someone else's comment in a quote-response and verify the above for yourself. But seriously, whatever. It's a neat illustration, so your loss.)
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Postby orald » 25 Apr 2008 11:52

Lol, to tell the truth I was a bit distracted at the time and when it opened up and I saw a spaceship I just closed it. :oops:

But my reasoning still stands, you horrible puppy molester! :cry:
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Postby SandChigger » 25 Apr 2008 12:08

I don't molest them.

I just suck them dry.

You can relate to that, right? :P
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Postby orald » 25 Apr 2008 12:21

chigger wrote:You can relate to that, right? :P

Yea, sure, kittens have great tasting blood, but I prefer little Christian kids for the matza. :)
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Postby Fantômas » 25 Apr 2008 12:39

SandChigger wrote:I don't molest them.

I just suck them dry.

You can relate to that, right? :P


So you both suck.

:lol: :lol: