Director Denis Villeneuve hopes to make Dune movie Read more

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WolfgangMercury
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Re: Director Denis Villeneuve hopes to make Dune movie Read more

Postby WolfgangMercury » 14 Jun 2019 20:15

Naib wrote:
georgiedenbro wrote:
Naib wrote:Absolutely. A Brandon Lee type look but a little taller could have worked marvellously for Duncan.


Now that you mention it, a young and rising Asian action star could actually be a good fit for Duncan, where they could actually give him cool swordfighting choreography in the fight to save Paul.

You wouldn't want him to be too young as Duncan is a mentor of Paul's. Someone 45-50 would probably be more appropriate.


Does Frank actually specify Duncan's age in any of the books? I always imagined him in his late 20's in the original novel.
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Naib
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Re: Director Denis Villeneuve hopes to make Dune movie Read more

Postby Naib » 15 Jun 2019 07:10

WolfgangMercury wrote:
Naib wrote:
georgiedenbro wrote:
Naib wrote:Absolutely. A Brandon Lee type look but a little taller could have worked marvellously for Duncan.


Now that you mention it, a young and rising Asian action star could actually be a good fit for Duncan, where they could actually give him cool swordfighting choreography in the fight to save Paul.

You wouldn't want him to be too young as Duncan is a mentor of Paul's. Someone 45-50 would probably be more appropriate.


Does Frank actually specify Duncan's age in any of the books? I always imagined him in his late 20's in the original novel.

Not that I recall. I always assumed the original Duncan was older as he'd been in the Atredies service for a while and becoming a Swordmaster of Ginaz is no easy feat so would have taken some time in itself. The ghola Duncans, though, were probably much younger.

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Cpt. Aramsham
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Re: Director Denis Villeneuve hopes to make Dune movie Read more

Postby Cpt. Aramsham » 18 Jun 2019 04:31

No, there's no indication of how old he is. I always saw him as fairly young (30 at most), but it's true that logically his background probably requires him to be a bit older than that. In fact, the first typescript of Dune (in the chapter where Gurney trains Paul) has a crossed-out section, included in The Road to Dune, that implies that Duncan is older than Gurney Halleck:

"It was Hawat's men brought me off Giedi Prime that time they nearly got the Baron," Gurney said. "I was just a child, but I showed aptitude for the sword, there being motive behind my learning. Duncan Idaho found a way for me to train at his school, The Ginaz*. I had some large bids for my services when I graduated, lad, but you understand now why I came back to the Atreides and why I'll never leave short of being carried out in the basket."

* Road to Dune incorrectly has "on Ginaz"

Of course, it could well be that Frank changed his conception of Duncan after this draft (he seems to have changed Ginaz from a school to a House, for example).

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Re: Director Denis Villeneuve hopes to make Dune movie Read more

Postby pcqypcqy » 19 Jun 2019 21:22

I always pictured Gurney being older than Duncan, and Thufir being older than Hawat. But given they all have supreme fighting talents, they must have achived some minimum age to have learnt these, yet still be young enough to be active. I think in the original book life expectancy was still short, even with melange, say 100. So I figured a range of 30's to young 60's for the 3 of them.

As for Duncan's appearance, I agree Moama is probably not the right guy. Perhaps the right heritage, but he's too big and bulky, I always pictured Duncan to be strong but slender, as I imagine knife and sword fighting is more about agility then strength.

As for how he's described in the books, I found the following during a quick search through my pdfs. Not fully comprehensive though, I probably missed a few.

Dune:

Paul studied Idaho, marking the feline movements, the swiftness of reflex that made him such a difficult weapons teacher to emulate. Idaho's dark round face turned toward Paul, the cave-sitter eyes giving no hint of recognition, but Paul recognized the mask of serenity over excitement.


Nearby, more an outflanker than a member of the group, stood Duncan Idaho in glittering dress uniform, flat face unreadable, the curling black hair neatly combed.


Idaho's dark, round face was drawn into a frown. His hair, curling like the fur of a black goat, was plastered with dirt. A jagged rent in his tunic exposed an expanse of the dress shirt he had worn at the dinner party earlier.


Messiah:

His attention remained on an orange-robed attendant whose blindly staring metal eyes looked neither to right nor to left. This attendant walked at the right front corner of the Ambassador's troupe like a military outrider. A rather flat face beneath curly black hair, such of his figure as could be seen beneath the orange robe, every gesture shouted a familiar identity.


Turning toward the ghola, Paul said: "Hayt, is that your only name?" A serene smile spread over the ghola's dark features. The metal eyes lifted, centered on Paul, but maintained their mechanical stare. "That is how I am called, my Lord: Hayt."


Children:

The outer appearance remained similar -- the black goat hair over sharp dark features -- but in the long years since his awakening from the ghola state he had undergone an inner metamorphosis.


"I'm told you wish to help me," Jessica said. "As odd as that may seem," he said. "But didn't Alia send you to abduct me?" she asked. A slight raising of his black eyebrows was the only mark of surprise. The many-faceted Tleilaxu eyes continued to stare at her with glittering intensity. "Those were her orders," he said.


Idaho opened the ornithopter's door for her, helped her into the right-hand seat. As she moved past him, she saw perspiration on his forehead where a lock of the black goat-hair lay tumbled. Unbidden, Jessica found herself recalling that head spouting blood in a noisy cavern. The steely marbles of the Tleilaxu eyes brought her out of that recollection. Nothing was as it seemed anymore. She busied herself fastening her seatbelt.


GEoD:

His hair was still the black cap of karakul, the features fixed in stony sharpness with high cheekbones.


Heretics:

The child on the lawn appeared to be about twelve standard years of age, but appearance could be deceptive with a ghola not yet awakened to his original memories. The child took that moment to look up at the watchers above him. He was a sturdy figure with a direct gaze that focused intently from beneath a black cap of karakul hair.


Chapterhouse:

The blocky gholachild from Gammu's long-dead Keep had become a lanky man: dark skin and hair. The hair was longer than when he had entered this no-ship on the last day of Dune.

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Re: Director Denis Villeneuve hopes to make Dune movie Read more

Postby Cpt. Aramsham » 20 Jun 2019 12:15

A few more...

Dune:

Paul had one last glimpse of Idaho standing against a swarm of Harkonnen uniforms—his jerking, controlled staggers, the black goat hair with a red blossom of death in it.


Messiah:

Scytale, observing her attention, exercised his Face-Dancer powers — shape flowing into shape, flesh moving and readjusting. Presently, a slender man stood before her. The face remained somewhat round, but darker and with slightly flattened features. High cheekbones formed shelves for eyes with definite epicanthic folds. The hair was black and unruly.
"A ghola of this appearance," Edric said, pointing to Scytale.


Something ultimately innocent shone from the new Duncan Idaho. The original had been worldly, devil-may-care. But this flesh had been cleansed of all that.


Children:

The loyal swordmaster of the Atreides, instructor of Paul Muad'Dib, had been treated kindly by his years on Arrakis. He'd arrived with a youthful spring in his step. A steady spice diet must have helped him, of course. And that marvelous metabolic balance which the Tleilaxu tanks always imparted.


God Emperor:

Idaho blushed.
Leto found this a charming reaction. The Duncans were among the few humans of these times who could do this.


Idaho turned and saw a child of perhaps eight years racing toward him out of a side street. The child's bare feet kicked up little dust geysers as he ran and there was the sound of a woman shouting, a despairing sound somewhere up the street The runner stopped about ten paces away and stared up at Idaho with a hungering look, an intensity which Idaho found disturbing. The child appeared vaguely familiar—a boy, a stalwart figure with dark curly hair, an unfinished face but with hints of the man to be—rather high cheekbones, a flat line across the brows. He wore a faded blue singlesuit which betrayed the effects of much laundering but obviously had begun as a garment of excellent material. It had the look of punji cotton woven in a cordlock that did not permit even the frayed edges to unravel.
"You're not my father," the child said. Whirling away. he raced back up the street and vanished around a corner.
Idaho turned and scowled at Siona, almost afraid to ask the question: Was that a child of my predecessor? He knew the answer without asking that familiar face, the genotype carried true. Myself as a child.


Heretics:

His skin was darkly tanned but a slight movement of his body shifted his blue singlesuit, revealing pale skin at the left shoulder.


His disguise was simple: Tleilaxu cold-weather garments and cheek pads to make his face appear rounder. His curly black hair had been straightened by some chemical applied with heat. The hair was then bleached to a sandy blond and hidden under a dark watchcap. All of his genital hair had been shaved away. He hardly recognized himself in the mirror they held up for him.


Duncan stared at his own face in a mirror. He realized with part of his mind that this was a pre-ghola memory. Abruptly, it was another mirror, his own face but different. That darkly rounded face had begun to shape into the harsher lines it could have if it matured. He looked into his own eyes. Yes, those were his eyes. He had heard someone describe his eyes once as "cave sitters." They were deeply inset under the brows and riding atop high cheeks. He had been told it was difficult to determine if his eyes were dark blue or dark green unless the light were just right.
A woman said that. He could not remember the woman.
He tried to reach up and touch his hair but his hands would not obey. He remembered then that his hair had been bleached. Who did that? An old woman. His hair was no longer a cap of dark ringlets.


Chapterhouse:

Idaho lay beside her, black hair in disarray around his face, a sharp contrast to the white pillow beneath his head. His eyes were closed but the lids flickered. Thin. He wasn't eating enough despite tempting dishes sent by Odrade's own chef. His high cheekbones were strongly defined. The face had become craggy in the years of his confinement.


Faces. A succession of masks, different views of this person he called myself. Slightly imbalanced faces. Hair sometimes gray, sometimes the jet karakul of his current life. Sometimes humorous, sometimes grave and seeking inward for wisdom to meet a new day.
Last edited by Cpt. Aramsham on 19 Jul 2019 04:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Cpt. Aramsham
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Re: Director Denis Villeneuve hopes to make Dune movie Read more

Postby Cpt. Aramsham » 20 Jun 2019 13:16

pcqypcqy wrote:I always pictured Gurney being older than Duncan, and Thufir being older than Hawat. But given they all have supreme fighting talents, they must have achived some minimum age to have learnt these, yet still be young enough to be active. I think in the original book life expectancy was still short, even with melange, say 100. So I figured a range of 30's to young 60's for the 3 of them.

Thufir older than Hawat? :lol:

Dr. Yueh is 109 at the time of Dune ("YUEH (yu'e), Wellington (weling-tun), Stdrd 10,082-10,191"), and while he is called "old" on a few occasions, it doesn't appear that he's remarkably old. On the other hand, there's hardly a mention of Thufir that doesn't point out how ancient he is, so my assumption would be that he's older than the doctor by at least a decade.

But I also agree that there isn't a whole lot to indicate that lifespans at this time were very much longer than ours. Jessica only lives to 102, Shaddam to 83 and Fenring to 107 (if we adopt the 15-year date fudge to fix the inconsistency in Shaddam's age); and the Baron is described as an "old man" at 81 (he also permitted himself to be seduced by a Bene Gesserit "in his youth"... when he was 43).

As for Gurney, we know that he knew Leto's father, the Old Duke — but then again, so did Jessica, apparently. (Duncan, on the other hand, never refers to him, which supports the idea that he is younger — or at least joined the Atreides household later.) He also appears to be balding: "Halleck's wispy blond hair trailed across barren spots on his head." However, these "barren spots" could also be scars, and of course people can go bald at a young age anyway.

I'm inclined to think Frank never worked out all this backstory in detail, and didn't think about the implications of and inconsistencies between the things he does mention. For example, how could Gurney know the Old Duke if — as Thufir implies — it was Leto who recruited him to House Atreides? ("How'd she figure your father attracted men like Duncan and Gurney?")

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Re: Director Denis Villeneuve hopes to make Dune movie Read more

Postby georgiedenbro » 20 Jun 2019 13:37

Cpt. Aramsham wrote:For example, how could Gurney know the Old Duke if — as Thufir implies — it was Leto who recruited him to House Atreides? ("How'd she figure your father attracted men like Duncan and Gurney?")


Couldn't Leto have recruited him while his father was still the Duke? I assume that Leto wasn't a layabout prior to becoming Duke.
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Re: Director Denis Villeneuve hopes to make Dune movie Read more

Postby Cpt. Aramsham » 20 Jun 2019 15:32

He could, but this is in the context of a discussion of what makes for a good ruler, and whether Leto is one:

"'You, Paul Atreides, descendant of kings, son of a Duke, you must learn to rule. It's something none of your ancestors learned.'"
[...]
"She said a ruler must learn to persuade and not to compel. She said he must lay the best coffee hearth to attract the finest men."
"How'd she figure your father attracted men like Duncan and Gurney?" Hawat asked.

To me, Hawat's rejoinder would be less apropos if Leto wasn't actually Duke when he did. (Though I suppose it's arguable whether the heir to a dukedom, perhaps commanding troops in the field, is a "ruler" even before coming into his title.)

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Re: Director Denis Villeneuve hopes to make Dune movie Read more

Postby georgiedenbro » 21 Jun 2019 09:57

Cpt. Aramsham wrote:Though I suppose it's arguable whether the heir to a dukedom, perhaps commanding troops in the field, is a "ruler" even before coming into his title.)


It would seem to be a distinct possibility, since if Paul is supposed to learn how to rule, as this time when his father is still alive, is would make sense to suppose that being a "ruler" is a skill rather than a job title. Just as an example from later in the book, Paul was clearly a 'ruler' among the Fremen even while Stilgar was still officially in charge.
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Re: Director Denis Villeneuve hopes to make Dune movie Read more

Postby pcqypcqy » 24 Jun 2019 20:31

Cpt. Aramsham wrote:Thufir older than Hawat? :lol:


Whoops! Halleck, of course.

Good find on that Messiah quote with the epicanthic fold to the eyes, I was looking for that one but missed it.

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Re: Director Denis Villeneuve hopes to make Dune movie Read more

Postby Naib » 14 Apr 2020 08:57


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Re: Director Denis Villeneuve hopes to make Dune movie Read more

Postby Blake00 » 15 Apr 2020 03:27

I think these are the same pics that were in Vanify fair but on Imgur.. god it looks cool.. please be good please be good please be good

https://imgur.com/gallery/oJLKbrg
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Re: Director Denis Villeneuve hopes to make Dune movie Read more

Postby Naib » 15 Apr 2020 09:30

I've already said I think casting Jason 'The Plank' Momoa is a mistake and now they've made Liet Kynes a woman. I expected something like this, but not to that character.

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Re: Director Denis Villeneuve hopes to make Dune movie Read more

Postby Cpt. Aramsham » 15 Apr 2020 09:51

Funnily enough I think the picture of Momoa looks the most promising from this batch. He does not adhere literally to the book's description of Duncan, but his appearance captures the right flavor.

The Fremen and stillsuits are not bad (of course we're not getting the hood and mouth covering), but the rags they wrap themselves in look ridiculous, like a grungy catwalk accessory rather than a functional piece of clothing.

I really dislike almost every part of the Atreides design, from the costumes to the insignia to the architecture and vehicle design. It looks like it was ripped off wholesale from an FPS ca. 2005.

Genderswapping Kynes — sure, whatever. I don't think it makes any great difference. (Consider, if Linda Hunt and Max von Sydow had switched roles in Lynch's movie, how much would that have mattered? Hardly at all.) Choices like excluding Feyd while including Rabban are likely to affect the story that's told to a much greater degree.

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Re: Director Denis Villeneuve hopes to make Dune movie Read more

Postby Naib » 15 Apr 2020 13:01

I don't worry about Momoa's looks; it's just that he can't act his way out of phone box. The stilsuits are alright but I don't get the bulky armour at all.

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Re: Director Denis Villeneuve hopes to make Dune movie Read more

Postby Saul Muaddib » 15 Apr 2020 15:15

Momoa is a far cry from Duncan as far as physical looks go. But I don't see how he doesn't capture the gist of Duncan. What are Duncan's key traits in the first Dune novel? Momoa never would have been my choice, but I think he is perfectly capable of capturing the essence of Duncan's character in book one.

Not sure what I think about the armor, but on Arrakis it makes sense to compensate once you realize shields are a detriment. I only hope they explain it rather than just leave out body shields.

The loose headgear on Fremen I don't like but I understand they are not about to cover the actors up that much. Hopefully they otherwise still take water retention seriously.

Liet gender swap isn't a problem at all. Ideally, Kynes is male, but it's not essential to the story. I only wonder if they make Liet into Stil's wife, sister-in-law, or half-sister.

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Re: Director Denis Villeneuve hopes to make Dune movie Read more

Postby georgiedenbro » 24 Apr 2020 10:51

If the film was going to get into the male/female issue (the giver and the taker) then it would matter a lot that Liet is a female. The whole issue about Kynes' failure of understanding was that he thought it was possible to change the environment and yet remain apart from it, which is (in Dune terms) a male 'taker' approach to trying to control one's surroundings. This is exemplified also in the Guild and their death-grip on their future safety. When Liet dies on the dunes the realization that he not only failed to avoid being affected, but is now totally overwhelmed by the ecology, is relevant to his being male if we take this meta-narrative all the way. I doubt they will address the male/female thing at all, especially in the current social climate in the U.S. in terms of gender roles/equality/whatever. So once we avoid this topic I guess it ceases to matter.

And yet by avoiding this topic I guess they will also have to avoid explaining why only women can access OM as RM's, and why only men are prescient. It will be a part of the story, I guess, but not be tied into anything else.

Regarding Duncan, I agree with the distaste for Momoa, but I guess we'll see. If one sees Duncan's chief personality trait as being "tough guy" then I guess that casting is ok. Personally the thing I think of the most about his presence in Dune is his miserable feelings for Jessica and the drunken scene where we see his weakness. It's a guy so honor-bound to duty that he has no room for personal feelings, and that's a pretty pent-up type of character. Later in the series he also seems pent-up to me, for perhaps similar but different reasons, so a "rock solid" guy who has no inner turmoil wouldn't seem to me right for the character. I think he's probably the most angsty dude in the book series.
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Re: Director Denis Villeneuve hopes to make Dune movie Read more

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Apr 2020 10:16

:clap:
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Re: Director Denis Villeneuve hopes to make Dune movie Read more

Postby Naib » 25 Apr 2020 12:10

I second Freakzilla's :clap:

Very well put georgiedenbro.