Lynch's True Intentions?

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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby Redstar » 12 Nov 2009 19:37

Been watching it. Among others things, the Baron has a clean face in the artwork depicting him. Curious about all that.

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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby Freakzilla » 12 Nov 2009 20:07

Redstar wrote:Been watching it. Among others things, the Baron has a clean face in the artwork depicting him. Curious about all that.


I think Lynch's insane hair came up with the idea of the diseased baron.

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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby TheDukester » 12 Nov 2009 22:51

I thought Lynch's hair was too busy spawning Kyle MacLachlan's hair:

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Because, you know, nothing says "young Paul Atreides" like a 30-year-old actor with a bouffant.

And a garden hose stuck up his nose ...
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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby Freakzilla » 12 Nov 2009 23:00

In the Dune SE DVD in the extras, the costume designer said Kyle's hair had it's own trailer.*

















*Embeslishment by the forum owner.
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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby The_Preacher » 17 Nov 2009 16:54

I must say that I've soured on Lynch over the years, as severely as I've soured on Tim Burton. It's all so repetitive and seemingly macabre strictly for the sake of being macabre. That and I'm tired of paying for their on-screen therapy sessions when both of those freaks should just be paying a shrink and sparing we in the audience from their twisted nightmares. (I digress: cue the scene from Family Guy's Blue Harvest where Luke/Chris beheads Danny Elfman with a lightsaber... I haven't cheered at a cartoon in years!!)

As for Lynch's Dune, while it was my introduction to Dune, I can't handle the "weirding modules". I know that Bene Gesserit super-human mind-body control as a concept is hard to portray on-screen but replacing it with a sound gun just doesn't do it for me. Neither does the Lynch-esque heart plugs, flying fatman Baron who secrets blood, etc. "Put the pick in here, Pete, and turn it round real neat." :puke:

Here's hoping that this prospective new Dune movie is a faithful adaptation!! Modern movie-making technology gives us Dune fans hope. If only we could blackmail Peter Jackson into directing.
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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby Redstar » 17 Nov 2009 19:51

The_Preacher wrote:As for Lynch's Dune, while it was my introduction to Dune, I can't handle the "weirding modules". I know that Bene Gesserit super-human mind-body control as a concept is hard to portray on-screen but replacing it with a sound gun just doesn't do it for me. Neither does the Lynch-esque heart plugs, flying fatman Baron who secrets blood, etc. "Put the pick in here, Pete, and turn it round real neat." :puke:

I thought the Weirding Modules were pretty cool. I understand why they did it that way (martial arts on sand dunes looking dorky), and you know he/they actually read the book for them to catch that one quote to imagine as something like this. While I would prefer to see something closer to a true knife, sword, and fist fight, this expansion of the source-material goes with the "visual experience" I was talking about in the New Dune thread, and how it doesn't contradict the fundamentals of the book and so is a difference one shouldn't mind. It's just a different take on it.

Now, the heart plugs were really stupid. Gurney's suicide at the end of the movie is very touching, but I think it would have been better if he'd actually used the knife Paul gave him. If I do a cut of the movie, the first thing to go is the Baron bathing in oil then making love to the slave's bloodied-chest. If that's gone, the Baron seems a little more sane, and the heart plugs are barely noticeable.

The_Preacher wrote:Here's hoping that this prospective new Dune movie is a faithful adaptation!! Modern movie-making technology gives us Dune fans hope. If only we could blackmail Peter Jackson into directing.

Quite a lot of LoTR fans hate Jackson's trilogy, and for more than just giving the Balrog wings. I've seen some reviews that suggest he has a "child's understanding of Lord of the Rings" and his movies introduce the masses to a watered-down, lowest common denominator version of the true masterpiece. (Sound familiar, eh?) But... I'd argue his changes make for a different viewing experience over a reading one, and aren't so fundamentally contradictory that his experience should be discarded.

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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby The_Preacher » 18 Nov 2009 14:26

Redstar wrote:I thought the Weirding Modules were pretty cool.
We can agree to disagree on this one. It was a tremendously complex concept and was a huge plot device in that Prana Bindu training provided to the Atreides troops caused the emperor to fear for his position of power and also enabled the Fremen, a fierce fighting force to begin with, to become even more superior to the Sardaukar than they already were. Boiling that down to a technological innovation completely insults the essence of the idea and one of the primary themes of the (original) series itself - the power of the human mind.
Redstar wrote:Quite a lot of LoTR fans hate Jackson's trilogy, and for more than just giving the Balrog wings. I've seen some reviews that suggest he has a "child's understanding of Lord of the Rings" and his movies introduce the masses to a watered-down, lowest common denominator version of the true masterpiece. (Sound familiar, eh?) But... I'd argue his changes make for a different viewing experience over a reading one, and aren't so fundamentally contradictory that his experience should be discarded.
To be honest, LOTR really wasn't all that deep and complex to begin with. It's more a classic good versus evil whereas Dune was a philosophical look at the nature of humanity. What I liked about Jackson's treatment, and, to a lesser extent, Lynch's treatment of Dune, is that it did an excellent job of bringing you into the world created by the author. In stark contrast to the Sci-Fi Channel mini-series treatment: honour for breakfast, duty for lunch. Garbage. Herbert's Paul Atreides rendered as a petulant jerk. :puke:
If Frank Herbert were alive today he'd be spinning in his grave if he could see what they've done to his legacy.

I bought the very first prequel on Amazon as soon as it was available. God! I wouldn't wipe me arse with that trash! Never again, says I. Fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.

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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby Redstar » 18 Nov 2009 19:14

The_Preacher wrote:
Redstar wrote:I thought the Weirding Modules were pretty cool.

We can agree to disagree on this one. It was a tremendously complex concept and was a huge plot device in that Prana Bindu training provided to the Atreides troops caused the emperor to fear for his position of power and also enabled the Fremen, a fierce fighting force to begin with, to become even more superior to the Sardaukar than they already were. Boiling that down to a technological innovation completely insults the essence of the idea and one of the primary themes of the (original) series itself - the power of the human mind.

I'm not saying the Prana Bindu training wasn't cool as well (in fact, I much prefer it) but the Weirding Modules, on their own, are a rather creative idea. They could have easily said "The Atreides are massing rayguns" and directly contradicted the books, but instead they took a quote and made it into something a little more interesting. Maybe not the best imagining, but it wasn't bad.

The_Preacher wrote:To be honest, LOTR really wasn't all that deep and complex to begin with. It's more a classic good versus evil whereas Dune was a philosophical look at the nature of humanity. What I liked about Jackson's treatment, and, to a lesser extent, Lynch's treatment of Dune, is that it did an excellent job of bringing you into the world created by the author. In stark contrast to the Sci-Fi Channel mini-series treatment: honour for breakfast, duty for lunch. Garbage. Herbert's Paul Atreides rendered as a petulant jerk. :puke:

:?
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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 18 Nov 2009 22:09

Redstar wrote:
The_Preacher wrote:To be honest, LOTR really wasn't all that deep and complex to begin with. It's more a classic good versus evil whereas Dune was a philosophical look at the nature of humanity. What I liked about Jackson's treatment, and, to a lesser extent, Lynch's treatment of Dune, is that it did an excellent job of bringing you into the world created by the author. In stark contrast to the Sci-Fi Channel mini-series treatment: honour for breakfast, duty for lunch. Garbage. Herbert's Paul Atreides rendered as a petulant jerk. :puke:

:?


I'm with you on that :? ...
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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby inhuien » 19 Nov 2009 10:07

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Redstar wrote:
The_Preacher wrote:To be honest, LOTR really wasn't all that deep and complex to begin with. It's more a classic good versus evil whereas Dune was a philosophical look at the nature of humanity. What I liked about Jackson's treatment, and, to a lesser extent, Lynch's treatment of Dune, is that it did an excellent job of bringing you into the world created by the author. In stark contrast to the Sci-Fi Channel mini-series treatment: honour for breakfast, duty for lunch. Garbage. Herbert's Paul Atreides rendered as a petulant jerk. :puke:

:?


I'm with you on that :? ...

Now it has been a wee while since I watched the sci-fi channels DVDs of Dune but I do recall him coming across as a wee wet blanket sometimes, especially in disc one.

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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby The_Preacher » 19 Nov 2009 10:18

inhuien wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Redstar wrote:
The_Preacher wrote:To be honest, LOTR really wasn't all that deep and complex to begin with. It's more a classic good versus evil whereas Dune was a philosophical look at the nature of humanity. What I liked about Jackson's treatment, and, to a lesser extent, Lynch's treatment of Dune, is that it did an excellent job of bringing you into the world created by the author. In stark contrast to the Sci-Fi Channel mini-series treatment: honour for breakfast, duty for lunch. Garbage. Herbert's Paul Atreides rendered as a petulant jerk. :puke:

:?


I'm with you on that :? ...

Now it has been a wee while since I watched the sci-fi channels DVDs of Dune but I do recall him coming across as a wee wet blanket sometimes, especially in disc one.
Ach! Is that what all the "confused" smilies are about? :?

They portrayed Paul as a whiney, petulant little jerk. The portrayal was in stark contrast to the book. Personally, it didn't work for me. Not one bit.
If Frank Herbert were alive today he'd be spinning in his grave if he could see what they've done to his legacy.

I bought the very first prequel on Amazon as soon as it was available. God! I wouldn't wipe me arse with that trash! Never again, says I. Fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.

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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby Redstar » 19 Nov 2009 10:43

The :? smilies are over the text I bolded.

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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby The_Preacher » 19 Nov 2009 11:07

Redstar wrote:The :? smilies are over the text I bolded.

Hard to tell either because of my screen or the font itself. A closer look seems to indicate that the bolded text is as follows: "LOTR really wasn't all that deep and complex to begin with. It's more a classic good versus evil "

So, as a decades-long Dune fan, I compare LOTR to it in terms of their respective complexities and philosophical themes. I surmise from your confusion that you compare them favourably by those criteria, whereas I find Dune to be far superior and LOTR to be much simpler.

Assuming we disagree here, I'd be interested to hear (read?) your side of this argument, if you're willing.
If Frank Herbert were alive today he'd be spinning in his grave if he could see what they've done to his legacy.

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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby Idahopotato » 20 Nov 2009 13:24

The_Preacher wrote:
Redstar wrote:The :? smilies are over the text I bolded.

Hard to tell either because of my screen or the font itself. A closer look seems to indicate that the bolded text is as follows: "LOTR really wasn't all that deep and complex to begin with. It's more a classic good versus evil "

So, as a decades-long Dune fan, I compare LOTR to it in terms of their respective complexities and philosophical themes. I surmise from your confusion that you compare them favourably by those criteria, whereas I find Dune to be far superior and LOTR to be much simpler.

Assuming we disagree here, I'd be interested to hear (read?) your side of this argument, if you're willing.


I think your assessment would be pretty difficult to argue with. While LOTR might have been far ahead of its time in regards to complexity in that genre, Dune fits up there with some of the great works of art of any genre, not just sci-fi.

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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 20 Nov 2009 13:40

Idahopotato wrote:
The_Preacher wrote:
Redstar wrote:The :? smilies are over the text I bolded.

Hard to tell either because of my screen or the font itself. A closer look seems to indicate that the bolded text is as follows: "LOTR really wasn't all that deep and complex to begin with. It's more a classic good versus evil "

So, as a decades-long Dune fan, I compare LOTR to it in terms of their respective complexities and philosophical themes. I surmise from your confusion that you compare them favourably by those criteria, whereas I find Dune to be far superior and LOTR to be much simpler.

Assuming we disagree here, I'd be interested to hear (read?) your side of this argument, if you're willing.


I think your assessment would be pretty difficult to argue with. While LOTR might have been far ahead of its time in regards to complexity in that genre, Dune fits up there with some of the great works of art of any genre, not just sci-fi.


No, I'd say that LoTR more than holds it's own against lit in general, not just it's genre. For complexity of worldbuilding and backstory LoTR is probably the finest and best thought out work of fiction ever written, by anyone. Find me something with half the worldbuilding written since or before and I'll be more than surprised.

Now, for philosophical depth, that's a tough one. Yes, Dune is deep, but 95% of that depth we are only aware of because we love the shit out of it and study it endlessly. 999 people out of a thousand people who read it probably never grasp or even think to look for anything past the obvious surface philosophy - I would bet that the same is happening here with us looking at LoTR. There is a lot more going on in that book than "classic good versus evil", though that is how it was packaged on the surface. Just like Dune is "just" a classic coming of age story (not so much).

In the end I would definitely say that Dune is more philosophical, because the focus of LoTR was mainly to be a great work of fiction, hidden messages and such coming as a seconday, wheras FH has made it pretty clear that he had to struggle to remind himself to entertain the reader and make a work of fiction, rather than a soapbox rant. He did one hell of a job at that fiction of course, but I don't know if we can say for sure which was foremost in his mind, the fiction or the philosophy.
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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby Idahopotato » 20 Nov 2009 14:32

A Thing of Eternity wrote:No, I'd say that LoTR more than holds it's own against lit in general, not just it's genre. For complexity of worldbuilding and backstory LoTR is probably the finest and best thought out work of fiction ever written, by anyone. Find me something with half the worldbuilding written since or before and I'll be more than surprised.

Now, for philosophical depth, that's a tough one. Yes, Dune is deep, but 95% of that depth we are only aware of because we love the shit out of it and study it endlessly. 999 people out of a thousand people who read it probably never grasp or even think to look for anything past the obvious surface philosophy - I would bet that the same is happening here with us looking at LoTR. There is a lot more going on in that book than "classic good versus evil", though that is how it was packaged on the surface. Just like Dune is "just" a classic coming of age story (not so much).

In the end I would definitely say that Dune is more philosophical, because the focus of LoTR was mainly to be a great work of fiction, hidden messages and such coming as a seconday, wheras FH has made it pretty clear that he had to struggle to remind himself to entertain the reader and make a work of fiction, rather than a soapbox rant. He did one hell of a job at that fiction of course, but I don't know if we can say for sure which was foremost in his mind, the fiction or the philosophy.


Man, I don't even know where to begin here. Let's start with the fact that I have loved LoTR since I was a kid. It has a very vast back story to go along with a great adventure. But the "finest and best thought out work of fiction ever written, by anyone."? I can't even come close to possessing the hubris to make such a comment about anything in existence. Conservative estimate would be that I have read somewhere between one and two thousand books in life thus far. And that isn't even a dent in what exists. To make such a claim as the best written work in any language by anyone should pretty much end any debate. Like singing to a pig, it wastes your time and annoys the pig. Nevertheless, I feel obliged to respond anyway.

World building doesn't have to be a fantastical magic universe to have depth. Faulkner's As I lay dying is an amazing world that spans a mere county. And that is just the setting. No for the writing itself. LoTR is filled with plot holes and examples of bad writing techniques that would almost make a KJA proud. Adventure stories don't have to be solely plot driven. Don Quixote is a perfect example of an adventure tale that is far from plot driven.

As for Dune, well I highly doubt any of us on here came to the determination that they were going to read it dozens of times so that they could be amongst the elite 1 person in a thousand that really gets it. It spoke to most of us the very first time we read it. The magic when a book takes a hold of you doesn't happen because you decided to study it endlessly. It happens automatically the first time you read it, or it doesn't happen. If you are forcing yourself to like something because people say you are supposed to, then I would say one doesn't really like it at all. Whether Frank intended to write philosophy first and fiction second, or the other way around doesn't really matter. The end result here is what is important.

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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 20 Nov 2009 15:07

Idahopotato wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:No, I'd say that LoTR more than holds it's own against lit in general, not just it's genre. For complexity of worldbuilding and backstory LoTR is probably the finest and best thought out work of fiction ever written, by anyone. Find me something with half the worldbuilding written since or before and I'll be more than surprised.
Now, for philosophical depth, that's a tough one. Yes, Dune is deep, but 95% of that depth we are only aware of because we love the shit out of it and study it endlessly. 999 people out of a thousand people who read it probably never grasp or even think to look for anything past the obvious surface philosophy - I would bet that the same is happening here with us looking at LoTR. There is a lot more going on in that book than "classic good versus evil", though that is how it was packaged on the surface. Just like Dune is "just" a classic coming of age story (not so much).
In the end I would definitely say that Dune is more philosophical, because the focus of LoTR was mainly to be a great work of fiction, hidden messages and such coming as a seconday, wheras FH has made it pretty clear that he had to struggle to remind himself to entertain the reader and make a work of fiction, rather than a soapbox rant. He did one hell of a job at that fiction of course, but I don't know if we can say for sure which was foremost in his mind, the fiction or the philosophy.

Man, I don't even know where to begin here. Let's start with the fact that I have loved LoTR since I was a kid. It has a very vast back story to go along with a great adventure. But the "finest and best thought out work of fiction ever written, by anyone."? I can't even come close to possessing the hubris to make such a comment about anything in existence. Conservative estimate would be that I have read somewhere between one and two thousand books in life thus far. And that isn't even a dent in what exists. To make such a claim as the best written work in any language by anyone should pretty much end any debate. Like singing to a pig, it wastes your time and annoys the pig. Nevertheless, I feel obliged to respond anyway.


Reading is essential my friend, I didn't say it was the "finest and best thought out work of fiction ever written" - I said that in terms of worldbuilding and backstory only. Also I started with "probably", clearly admitting that I was making an assumption. Obviously I haven't read every story ever written, I would think that was a given.

Not taking the time to read your opponent's argument should pretty much end any debate. :wink:

World building doesn't have to be a fantastical magic universe to have depth. Faulkner's As I lay dying is an amazing world that spans a mere county. And that is just the setting. No for the writing itself. LoTR is filled with plot holes and examples of bad writing techniques that would almost make a KJA proud. Adventure stories don't have to be solely plot driven. Don Quixote is a perfect example of an adventure tale that is far from plot driven. .


Of course. At no point did I state that LoTR had a strong bullet proof plot, it certainly doesn't. I also made no claim that stories should be plot driven - I personally look for stories to be mainly character driven, or thematically driven.

Neither did I say that worldbuilding has to be a "fantastical magic universe" to have depth. Adding things I didn't say and then arguing with your own statements doesn't really do a tonne to dispute my statements! Even if you weren't saying that in assumed contradiction to something that I "said", I agree with you completely - it is not the magical fantastical elements that make Middle Earth great, it is the extensive work with linguistics, the absolutely mindboggling depth put into the history of damned near every character, location, road, forest, etc - you name it and it's almost gauranteed that JJR put thought into it's backstory.

As for Dune, well I highly doubt any of us on here came to the determination that they were going to read it dozens of times so that they could be amongst the elite 1 person in a thousand that really gets it. It spoke to most of us the very first time we read it. The magic when a book takes a hold of you doesn't happen because you decided to study it endlessly. It happens automatically the first time you read it, or it doesn't happen. If you are forcing yourself to like something because people say you are supposed to, then I would say one doesn't really like it at all. Whether Frank intended to write philosophy first and fiction second, or the other way around doesn't really matter. The end result here is what is important.



Of course not. It gripped me as surely as it did you, or any of us, and that is why we are here. That said, I am mainly into SF and have been since I got out of my middle teens, if I remained a Fantasy buff I would maybe be just as gripped by LoTR, it certainly dominated my imagination and passion for reading from age 7 or 8 through to highschool.



I also didn't say it did matter that/whether FH intended philosophy first and fiction second - I offered that as a possible explanation for why LoTR focusses on the fiction more than the philosophy.
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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby Idahopotato » 20 Nov 2009 15:27

Reading is essential. I didn't quote you out of context. Indeed I added the preface before the quote. Otherwise I agree with all you said. I had a LoTR devotee friend that told me the back story and the linguistics were everything to Tolkien and that the story was merely a vessel to espouse these to the masses, since most people don't go to a book story and pick up linguistic books for fun reading. I have nothing to back up this claim's validity though so please don't tear me apart based on faulty information. I have also heard from others that Tolkien actually wanted to create a mythology, but I find this one unlikely since England has a pretty rich heritage derived from various mythologies.

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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby SandChigger » 20 Nov 2009 19:04

Idahopotato wrote:I had a LoTR devotee friend that told me the back story and the linguistics were everything to Tolkien and that the story was merely a vessel to espouse these to the masses, since most people don't go to a book story and pick up linguistic books for fun reading.

They don't? :(

... I'M SO WEIRD! :tissue2:


I've read that he created one of the (Elven) languages and then asked himself who spoke it and where they lived ... and everything else followed from that. He was a conlanger become conworlder, in the modern parlance. ;)

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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby Idahopotato » 20 Nov 2009 19:11

SandChigger wrote:
Idahopotato wrote:I had a LoTR devotee friend that told me the back story and the linguistics were everything to Tolkien and that the story was merely a vessel to espouse these to the masses, since most people don't go to a book story and pick up linguistic books for fun reading.

They don't? :(

... I'M SO WEIRD! :tissue2:


I've read that he created one of the (Elven) languages and then asked himself who spoke it and where they lived ... and everything else followed from that. He was a conlanger become conworlder, in the modern parlance. ;)


That was another thing I had heard. Something about no modern spoken language having enough melody to it, so he created his own and then a world to make it live in. Again I have nothing in the way of evidence to back this up.

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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby chanilover » 23 Nov 2009 08:28

Those LOTR films are really long, aren't they?

I went to see one of them with my other half who moaned about it all being wibble wibble language and then snored through the rest of the film. Cool effects, though.
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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby DuneFishUK » 23 Nov 2009 09:17

They were really long, then they released the extended editions on DVD.

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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby chanilover » 23 Nov 2009 11:53

DuneFishUK wrote:They were really long, then they released the extended editions on DVD.


Wow, has anyone sat all the way through without ending up with piles and DVT?
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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby TheDukester » 23 Nov 2009 12:19

I've sat through them. They are long-ish, no argument there, but the DVD format actually helps. You can pause whenever for nature or food breaks, or just to take a break from the movie itself.

I couldn't imagine doing the extended versions in a theater, though. They'd need intermissions.
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Re: Lynch's True Intentions?

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 23 Nov 2009 15:21

I'm planning to do an all day watching of the three movies back to back, extended versions. Should be nuts.

I've watched 6 hour movies in one go a few times, but never 12 (the extended versions are around 4 hours each I heard??).
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