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    The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

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    The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby zacher2005 » 13 Mar 2011 16:55

    Matches the Legends series. Man get complacent, is enslaved by people using the AI lifeforms, and then humans rebel.
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    Re: The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby Alpha Carinae » 13 Mar 2011 17:50

    The film also takes this from the beginning of Dune:

    Mohiam wrote:"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them."


    The dastardly duo do often seem to take more inspiration from the film than the books. However, even in this they make a mistake: the keyword here being "people". In the pre-prequels this is just not what's happening; people (or at least half of them :? ) are enslaved by the machines themselves. But yes, I know this is usually explained away with the Titans.

    In my personal opinion, when the books refer to people being slaves to machines it does not mean literally in bondage. It seems much more to mean that humans were slaves in the way that events ranging from everyday descisions to global economics are governed by computers rather than people, they "turned their thinking over to machines"... much like the world currently. It's rather extermist and literalist to think that it means that computers kept humans in pens and made them work without pay.

    Frank in GEoD wrote:"The target of the Jihad was a machine-attitude as much as the machines," Leto said. "Humans had set those machines to usurp our sense of beauty, our necessary selfdom out of which we make living judgments. Naturally, the machines were destroyed."
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    Re: The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby Sardaukar Capt » 01 Nov 2011 13:36

    I've got all the Dune novels on my Kindle now and was searching through them using the Kindle PC app for references to the B-Jihad and just read that passage from GEoD :)

    I watched that intro to the TV cut of Dune on YouTube which mentions the Butlerian Jihad. It looks more like Frank's version and they used that line quote from RM GHM. McDune's Jihad is more of a mashup of Star Wars (empire vs Rebllion), The Matrix, The Terminator, The Forbin Project, and Star Trek... notice not literary references. :)
    The name Atreides was also consciously chosen. It is the family name of Agamemnon. Says Herbert, "I wanted a sense of monumental aristocracy, but with tragedy hanging over them--and in our culture, Agamemnon personifies that."
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    http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/

    Ghanima said. "We Atreides go back to Agamemnon..."
    Distracted, Irulan asked: "Who's Agamemnon?"

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    WTF? A BG forgets the Titans?! :)
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    Re: The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby Freakzilla » 01 Nov 2011 13:41

    I wonder sometimes if KJA even CAN read. Jabba probably types his twitters.
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    Re: The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby Serkanner » 01 Nov 2011 15:15

    Freakzilla wrote:I wonder sometimes if KJA even CAN read. Jabba probably types his twitters.


    With those fingers? I think not!
    "... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

    “There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

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    and wrote a Dune Novel."
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    Re: The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby Freakzilla » 01 Nov 2011 15:19

    Serkanner wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:I wonder sometimes if KJA even CAN read. Jabba probably types his twitters.


    With those fingers? I think not!


    Maybe he dictatwitters(R) them with Dragon?
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    Re: The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby Serkanner » 01 Nov 2011 15:23

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Serkanner wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:I wonder sometimes if KJA even CAN read. Jabba probably types his twitters.


    With those fingers? I think not!


    Maybe he dictatwitters(R) them with Dragon?


    Voice recognition Twitter is the obvious next step.
    "... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

    “There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

    Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
    and wrote a Dune Novel."
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    Re: The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby JustSomeGuy » 01 Nov 2011 21:09

    Voice recognition Twitter + thekja?
    I bring nothing to the table.
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    Re: The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby EyesofBlue » 19 Jan 2012 11:54

    Do you guys think that machines would bother keeping us around as slaves? Surely if they are advanced enough to enslave us they would no longer need us.
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    Re: The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby lotek » 19 Jan 2012 12:14

    and who would change the batteries ?

    Do you know how many robots it takes to change them ?

    Well I don't !
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    Re: The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 05 Feb 2012 15:02

    EyesofBlue wrote:Do you guys think that machines would bother keeping us around as slaves? Surely if they are advanced enough to enslave us they would no longer need us.


    That's one of the biggest plot-holes in any story like what KJA wrote for the Jihad - it makes zero sense. Anything a human slave could do machines could do better and cheaper if they were advanced enough to take over in the first place. It's just silly.
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    Re: The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby Freakzilla » 05 Feb 2012 15:13

    We might make good pets for robots.
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    Re: The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby lotek » 06 Feb 2012 07:51

    don't even go there

    EDIT
    is it possible to correct the title ?
    begiNIng please !
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    Re: The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby D Pope » 06 Feb 2012 11:49

    JustSomeGuy wrote:Voice recognition Twitter + thekja?

    Not possible, if it were, the spelling would be consistant.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby lotek » 06 Feb 2012 12:32

    JustSomeGuy wrote:Voice recognition Twitter + thekja?


    you can't use the twitter with a twit, it's like dividing by zero the number of Jabecca's jowls.
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    Re: The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby Ford4D » 26 Feb 2012 03:36

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    EyesofBlue wrote:Do you guys think that machines would bother keeping us around as slaves? Surely if they are advanced enough to enslave us they would no longer need us.


    That's one of the biggest plot-holes in any story like what KJA wrote for the Jihad - it makes zero sense. Anything a human slave could do machines could do better and cheaper if they were advanced enough to take over in the first place. It's just silly.



    Now I know this is a reach here, but given a sufficiently advanced machine intelligence, perhaps it would be able to extrapolate various far-flung scenarios in which an intelligent organic organism would be useful. (Is organic organism redundant?)

    Example: The use of the Titans and their cymek subordinates to pierce through the scrambler fields, shields, or whatever they called them.


    Perhaps in the instance of Dune, the Titans themselves had something to do with the continued existence of humans on machine-controlled worlds, if perhaps only for some kind of amusement.
    Haven't read either of the Dune 7 books yet, so please don't spoil any details for me!
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    Re: The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby Lundse » 26 Feb 2012 06:43

    Alpha Carinae wrote:It seems much more to mean that humans were slaves in the way that events ranging from everyday descisions to global economics are governed by computers rather than people, they "turned their thinking over to machines"... much like the world currently. It's rather extermist and literalist to think that it means that computers kept humans in pens and made them work without pay.

    Frank in GEoD wrote:"The target of the Jihad was a machine-attitude as much as the machines," Leto said. "Humans had set those machines to usurp our sense of beauty, our necessary selfdom out of which we make living judgments. Naturally, the machines were destroyed."


    Ex-F...ing-actly!

    Neither quote makes any sense, given the 'let's kill all humans no no apparent reason-scenario'.
    I have not met a KJA fan willing to offer up even an attempt to make sense of these quotes, beyond handwaving 'I can interpret this as I want/as the exact opposite of what it says'...
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    Re: The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby trang » 26 Feb 2012 14:30

    Ford4D wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    EyesofBlue wrote:Do you guys think that machines would bother keeping us around as slaves? Surely if they are advanced enough to enslave us they would no longer need us.


    That's one of the biggest plot-holes in any story like what KJA wrote for the Jihad - it makes zero sense. Anything a human slave could do machines could do better and cheaper if they were advanced enough to take over in the first place. It's just silly.



    Now I know this is a reach here, but given a sufficiently advanced machine intelligence, perhaps it would be able to extrapolate various far-flung scenarios in which an intelligent organic organism would be useful. (Is organic organism redundant?)

    Example: The use of the Titans and their cymek subordinates to pierce through the scrambler fields, shields, or whatever they called them.


    Perhaps in the instance of Dune, the Titans themselves had something to do with the continued existence of humans on machine-controlled worlds, if perhaps only for some kind of amusement.


    You are entitled to like or dislike the stuff the twits wrote, but I would recommend just complete disregard for all of it. They completely blow the most basic plots of Dune out their ass. The complete Fubar of the BuJihad is a steaming example. Paul was born on Caladan, Men vs Men with machines, Norma Cenva,etc.

    As for your idea, Sci-fi in general sense, hell anything is possible. Every example today seems to reference Machines created by Man that he has to battle down the road. There could be alien machines hellbent on organic extermination. There could be a unification story where we and machines decide we are better together and later some cyborg battle royal.

    What would be funny, an evolution of machines, if one day (hopefully soon) the machine that KJA dictates into starts rejecting his input! hazzzaa!! it verbally tells him how idiotic his ideas are and refuses to accept anymore! Humanity and Franks Legacy is saved! Hazza!(Well at least any more damage would be prevented)
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    "Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
    But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.."
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    Re: The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby lotek » 27 Feb 2012 08:58

    Ford4D wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    EyesofBlue wrote:Do you guys think that machines would bother keeping us around as slaves? Surely if they are advanced enough to enslave us they would no longer need us.


    That's one of the biggest plot-holes in any story like what KJA wrote for the Jihad - it makes zero sense. Anything a human slave could do machines could do better and cheaper if they were advanced enough to take over in the first place. It's just silly.



    Now I know this is a reach here, but given a sufficiently advanced machine intelligence, perhaps it would be able to extrapolate various far-flung scenarios in which an intelligent organic organism would be useful. (Is organic organism redundant?)

    Example: The use of the Titans and their cymek subordinates to pierce through the scrambler fields, shields, or whatever they called them.


    Perhaps in the instance of Dune, the Titans themselves had something to do with the continued existence of humans on machine-controlled worlds, if perhaps only for some kind of amusement.


    I think it would be much easier for machines to just shield themselves, it's not like they have limitations... Or just bombard the fuck out of whatever opposes them.
    TheJaK's robots are flawed as such right from the start, because they think like humans, with human limitations...
    I'm a giant robot mind with an entire empire's resources and I can't get rid of a few puny humans ? Bull Crap !

    As for Titans and Dune in the same sentence, well ^^ Whatever they do for their amusement it has nothing to do with Dune, more like prostitute robots from the future (sfw:))...
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    Re: The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby SandChigger » 29 Feb 2012 08:57

    lotek wrote:[Or just bombard the fuck out of whatever opposes them.

    Exactly.

    The Titans are completely superfluous as "penetrators of the scrambler fields": just lob a few space rocks at the locations of the shield generators. :roll:

    But the truly bullshit idea of that whole series is how Omnius could do nothing directly to eliminate his Titan creators. Because of his programming. :roll: :doh:

    He/It/Whatever obviously had to exceed his original programming to take over. It's a colossal plot hole. KJA may not be able to exceed his own programming (and write a GOOD book, for example), but my money would be on an intelligent machine being able to come up with a way to do so. ;)

    Edit: Oh yeah: ESPECIALLY after a thousand years. Which would be millions of years in machine time. Holy Maker... stupid stupid stupid!!! :angry-screaming:
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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    Re: The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby lotek » 29 Feb 2012 10:01

    A machine is only as smart as its creator, and it's a fact that ominous is both stupid and the hacks pure creation.

    I remember specifically this from the vagueness that is mcdune in my mind (all that hard drinking is finally paying off) : unlimited resources, your minions have no self-preservation, and yet a few humans that kamikaze to win can produce children enough to man this silly war...

    Fuck's sake if I was an evil mind from the future, I'd just build a fucking orbital station shaped like a moon that can fire a giant laser big enough to destroy a planet and to hell with it !
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    Re: The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby Crysknife » 29 Feb 2012 20:00

    Hence, Ship........

    A thinking mans AI.
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    Re: The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby Omphalos » 29 Feb 2012 21:43

    SandChigger wrote:Edit: Oh yeah: ESPECIALLY after a thousand years. Which would be millions of years in machine time. Holy Maker... stupid stupid stupid!!! :angry-screaming:


    Are machines like dogs, or something? Or wait, do I have that backwards?
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    Re: The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby Sardaukar Capt » 01 Mar 2012 14:23

    I don't think the Butlerian Jihad was all that important to Frank in any great detail. It was a way to get humans to the state he wanted them in to tell his story. Basically a snipit of subtex to explain why 10K years + into the future there aren't computers and droids and the matrix and stuff like that and man is in feudalistic society but still extremely advanced. When I searched all 6 of Frank's books in Kindle format, I came across very few references to the BJ.

    I think Frank's actual notes are the BJ are very sparse. I don't think they go into any great detail. Dr. Wills McNelly said he was collaborating with FH on telling a BJ story before Frank's death... funny BH claimed the same thing. McNelly has stated he didn't think FH had any particular "Butler" in mind when he created the nugget of subtext that is the Butlerian Jihad. McNelly states that he made up the story of machines killing a Butler woman's baby in the Dune Encyclopedia which was the genesis for the BJ. If he's to be believed that FH had agreed to write a book with him about the BJ period and that he, McNelly, came up with the plot outline and basic idea, then its pretty obvious that Frank Herbert himself didn't have any grand notes about the BJ period that BH & KJA elude to. If he did it was probably the beginning of his work with McNelly on a BJ book.

    I think the explanation of the BJ overview in the TV version of the Dune movie is that it was added by the studio without Lynch or Herbert participating so the studio to make it easier for audiences to understand the universe they were about to enter since the theatrical cut did so poorly at the box office. If you look at the opening of the TV cut on YouTube, the way that intro explains the BJ is derivative of The Terminator in a lot of ways. It had come out the same year in the theaters as Dune. Seems logical to me an unimaginative studio hack would come up with an intro to the TV cut like that.

    So we know Frank himself didn't come up with the idea of a Butler woman's baby being killed by machines that started the BJ. And we know KJA created Erasmus himself and he and BH decided to make him like Dr Mengele.

    Its so telling to me that on the Dune site in a FAQ the twin idiots take great pains to distance themselves from McNelly's Dune Encyclopedia and say they are working "exclusively" from Frank's notes. Yet they rip off McNelly's ideas about the BJ in so many ways. Like 5th graders they make some minimal changes and think its something completely new and original. I would love to know if McNelly read the BJ book before his death and what he thought about it.
    Whatever Frank himself thought about the Butlerian Jihad is probably lost to time unless his real and actual notes are ever made public. So I don't take the Dune movie TV cut into or the BH/KJA books as anywhere close to canon. They are complete and utter fan fiction (I use the term fan very very very loosely). Much in the same way the Dune Encyclopedia is fan fiction, FH endorsed fan fic but fan fic nonetheless.
    The name Atreides was also consciously chosen. It is the family name of Agamemnon. Says Herbert, "I wanted a sense of monumental aristocracy, but with tragedy hanging over them--and in our culture, Agamemnon personifies that."
    Frank Herbert by Tim O'Reilly
    http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/

    Ghanima said. "We Atreides go back to Agamemnon..."
    Distracted, Irulan asked: "Who's Agamemnon?"

    Children of Dune by Frank Herbert

    WTF? A BG forgets the Titans?! :)
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    Re: The Butlerian Jihad at the beging of Dune Movie.....

    Postby Crysknife » 01 Mar 2012 16:38

    I simply do not see the "terminator" type scenario in the storyboard opening of the Dune movie. It is just man using machines to control others, and man becoming too dependent on machines in the first place. It actually stands for the OH interpretation pretty well.
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