Can machines be conscious?


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Orthodox
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Re: Can machines be conscious?

Post by Orthodox »

It just keeps getting weirder and weirder. I wonder what people will think of an automated Stealth bomber. Did no one learn from the movie Stealth?
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SadisticCynic
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Re: Can machines be conscious?

Post by SadisticCynic »

Orthodox wrote:It just keeps getting weirder and weirder. I wonder what people will think of an automated Stealth bomber. Did no one learn from the movie Stealth?
The fact that we are having this discussion seems to indicate nobody learned from the myriad movies about AI... :)
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Freakzilla
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Re: Can machines be conscious?

Post by Freakzilla »

SadisticCynic wrote:
Orthodox wrote:It just keeps getting weirder and weirder. I wonder what people will think of an automated Stealth bomber. Did no one learn from the movie Stealth?
The fact that we are having this discussion seems to indicate nobody learned from the myriad movies about AI... :)
I only watched that movie for Jessica Biel (the only woman to ever look hot in a G-suit):

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Nekhrun
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Re: Can machines be conscious?

Post by Nekhrun »

Kurzweil debates machine consciousness: http://www.kurzweilai.net/meme/frame.ht ... ?m=4%23688" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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A Thing of Eternity
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Re: Can machines be conscious?

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

Kurz'y a wack-job, but I'll be interested to read that when I get some free time later.
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Re: Can machines be conscious?

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A Thing of Eternity wrote:Kurz'y a wack-job
He is indeed. :P

Imagine how he's going to feel if someone demonstrates that it's impossible to upload human consciousness into another medium. :?

"GODDAMMIT TO HELL! I WASTED ALL THAT TIME ON MEDICAL TESTS AND EXTREME REGIMENS AND EXERCISING AND EATING MY BODY WEIGHT IN SUPPLEMENTS & PILLS EVERY DAY?! AND ALL FOR NOTHING?!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!"

:lol:
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Re: Can machines be conscious?

Post by TheDukester »

Freakzilla wrote:I only watched that movie for Jessica Biel (the only woman to ever look hot in a G-suit)
Jesus Christ!

Hello, Netflix? Send that movie, please!
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Re: Can machines be conscious?

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

SandChigger wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:Kurz'y a wack-job
He is indeed. :P

Imagine how he's going to feel if someone demonstrates that it's impossible to upload human consciousness into another medium. :?

:lol:
Bah, that's the tip of the iceberg of wackyness with him. I don't think he's nutso for thinking we'll be able to upload consciousness into a digital medium and become immortal - I have my doubts, but it's not really that far-fetched.

What's wacko (and also very sad) is that he thinks he's be able to digitally resurrect his dead father with information from his memories of the man, and letters he wrote. So very sad, and so very insane. Anyone could see that this is only going to lead to a very poor simulation of the man.
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Re: Can machines be conscious?

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Eeew. I hadn't heard any of that about his father.

That's a wee bit dim of him, isn't it? :roll:
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Re: Can machines be conscious?

Post by Omphalos »

SandChigger wrote:Eeew. I hadn't heard any of that about his father.

That's a wee bit dim of him, isn't it? :roll:
Unless his theory is that the best you can do is a simulation anyway, and that nobody will be able to tell the difference. Agree that probably is not enough, but...
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Re: Can machines be conscious?

Post by SandChigger »

Doesn't Reynolds have three levels of sim ... "realism", or fidelity-to-original, in his Revelation Space-verse? Ranging from gamma to alpha, with gamma the lowest and representing a sort of souped-up expert system/AI, beta a more recognizable simulation of a human persona, and alpha being virtually indistinguishable from the original human personality? (SPOILER!! The one character shares his body with an alpha sim of his father at one point?) Something like that? (Sorry, it's been a good three or four years since I read Revelation Space!)

In those terms, I don't see how you could ever get anything better than a beta sim without scanning or interaction with the original. Which of course is impossible in the case of the deceased.
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Aquila ka-Hecate
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Re: Can machines be conscious?

Post by Aquila ka-Hecate »

Urgh. Ray Kurzweil's always struck me as a tad unhinged, but this kind of proves it to me.

That said, I tend to think that one's ancestors reside in one's cells.

Hell - I'm in Africa, where the Ancestors walk with us every step of the way. That's my attempt at making sense of it.
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Re: Can machines be conscious?

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SandChigger wrote:Doesn't Reynolds have three levels of sim ... "realism", or fidelity-to-original, in his Revelation Space-verse? Ranging from gamma to alpha, with gamma the lowest and representing a sort of souped-up expert system/AI, beta a more recognizable simulation of a human persona, and alpha being virtually indistinguishable from the original human personality? (SPOILER!! The one character shares his body with an alpha sim of his father at one point?) Something like that? (Sorry, it's been a good three or four years since I read Revelation Space!)

In those terms, I don't see how you could ever get anything better than a beta sim without scanning or interaction with the original. Which of course is impossible in the case of the deceased.
I just read it.

Alpha was the uploaded consciousness and Beta was sort of a copy of that, or a simulation of the Alpha. I think...
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Re: Can machines be conscious?

Post by SandChigger »

Thanks! Was kinda in the ballpark. ;)

I thought I remembered some mention of gamma sims, too. Kinda like automated reception desks or information centers, places and things where a slight human touch was felt desirable.

Could also just be a brainfart. I'm gassy this morning something awful. :lol:
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Freakzilla
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Re: Can machines be conscious?

Post by Freakzilla »

SandChigger wrote:Thanks! Was kinda in the ballpark. ;)

I thought I remembered some mention of gamma sims, too. Kinda like automated reception desks or information centers, places and things where a slight human touch was felt desirable.

Could also just be a brainfart. I'm gassy this morning something awful. :lol:
Oh yeah... I think Beta was the copy of the Alpha (which couldn't be genuinely copied in theory) and the Gamma was the simulation.

That book was way out there, man. :crazy:
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A Thing of Eternity
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Re: Can machines be conscious?

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

Freakzilla wrote:
SandChigger wrote:Thanks! Was kinda in the ballpark. ;)

I thought I remembered some mention of gamma sims, too. Kinda like automated reception desks or information centers, places and things where a slight human touch was felt desirable.

Could also just be a brainfart. I'm gassy this morning something awful. :lol:
Oh yeah... I think Beta was the copy of the Alpha (which couldn't be genuinely copied in theory) and the Gamma was the simulation.

That book was way out there, man. :crazy:
That book is nothing, the first book I read by him was Absolution Gap, which to this day remains one of the most bizzare dark messed up books I've ever read...
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SadisticCynic
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Re: Can machines be conscious?

Post by SadisticCynic »

In case anyone's interested, Penrose on consciousness:

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Smiley
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Re: Can machines be conscious?

Post by Smiley »

SandRider wrote:tl;dr: most of this thread

what that (as yet) unknown intelligent "spark" is in the human brain, whether "spiritual" or bio-chemical is a different question -

No-one has yet explained to me how a man-made machine can "exceed its programming" ...

I will concede that a machine could be built that would simulate independent "consciousness",
and materials and robotics could advance to the point that a "replicant" would be indistinguishable
from an actual human (except to Rick Deckard, but he was replicant, too), and I will concede they
could be programmed to build more machines like themselves, independently, (thus "procreating")
and so may in some stretch be considered a new "lifeform" in a way, or "sentient being" (or self-aware or what-have-you)
but
they will still be machines; how can a program innovate independently ? (outside of a comic book ?)

Can machines be conscious ? no, not the SiFi sense ....
as Frank Herbert has said many times in the text of his novels, knowing is the greatest barrier to learning. The programming could be very basic. Like our programming drives us to be social, eat and have sex.
We also have an inhibition mechanism that stops us in certain cases. This allows us to rise above basic needs and exceed said programming.
Yes I am describing evolutionary drives as a program. If this doesn't hold let me know . My only other point is that just because it cannot be done now doesn't mean it can't be done. Machines in the future and their software might be beyond our current understanding of such things.
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