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      Bitches, gripes, complaints... post them here

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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby DuneFishUK » 04 Sep 2009 17:49

    Nothing stopping you sowing the seeds of KJHatred in whatever outlets you have at your disposal. Subtle is fine :)
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby SandChigger » 09 Sep 2009 14:39

    It's just that some of us prefer a broader, blunter mallet ... er, I mean, paint brush. :P
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby redbugpest » 25 Sep 2009 18:46

    Freakzilla wrote:This is a Dune site and I don't want it to turn into a KJA hate site.

    If y'all would like to compile reviews and quotes from his other squeezings, no problem. I'll make a forum just for that and I'll support the effort the best I can. I've been meaning to do a little rearranging anyway.

    As for what we hope to achieve, ideally KJA would stop writting Dune books and be banished to the moon.

    But realistically the best I could hope for is for KJA to admit there are inconsistancies between his books and the originals. Releasing "The Outline" would be nice too.


    I don't mean this to be taken in an insulting manner, but rather as an observation from a different point of view. This site already does fit the description of a hate site. The copious amounts of just purely nasty comments and jokes at KJA/BH expense coupled with the disdain for anyone who enjoys the books (for whatever reason) is what is driving away potential membership. I mean, who would want to talk about Dune with folks that are going to just verbally abuse them in a fourm that, even if it does not support that kind of behavior, does little to curb it.

    outside of the one or two of us that like the new books who wander in when we can, you have really become stagnant form the viewpoint of really robust discussions. Of course, if that is all you want it to be, then you need to change nothing. The Dukester is right when he says that it will evolve naturally. What I would add to that is that not every natural evolution ends up thriving.

    A little leadership and direction is not a bad thing, and this board could attract more people just by reshuffling the forums so that there is a place to complain and make your anti KJA/BH commentary, A place for pro KJA/BH commentary (provided that you do want to have any pro KJA folks here), and a place for open and respectful Dune discussion (aka heavily moderated).

    Just my 2 cents worth...
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby Ampoliros » 25 Sep 2009 20:40

    Sure KJA seems to dominate most of the discussions here, but he is a very relevant topic in the unfolding evolution of Dune. To whatever end he has attached himself to the Dune name and as such requires response from the community.

    I don't consider this a hate site. Jacurutu is THE Dune fan site. We don't kick fans of KJA off the board. We do expect them to bring a logical debate if they want to defend the hack. IMHO it is literally impossible to show any constructive element the new books have brought to Dune. Not one. If anything, the only thing they show is a perfect example of great power being placed in the wrong hands i.e. Frank's legacy being manhandled by the biggest hack currently writing.

    I would even debate the point that they bring in younger fans. Those fans would have found Dune eventually, and at the very least I'm sure he's turned away more potential fans to DUNE than he's brought in.

    I don't hide my opinion. I try to stay diplomatic. In my case KJA is raping the legacy of a book I hold Sacred. I cannot stand by idle and ignore that violation.
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby TheDukester » 25 Sep 2009 21:10

    redbugpest wrote:This site already does fit the description of a hate site.

    Sorry, Brian, but this doesn't hold up to inspection. You get a lot of mileage out of this line, but just repeating it all the time doesn't make it true. For example, check the various reading groups for a good example of the only relevant Dune discussion going on anywhere right now on the interwebs.

    As far as Anderjacket goes: well, yes, he gets discussed a lot, but that seems pretty logical considering he's the only person alive writing anything Dune-related right now. I'm sure we'd all like nothing more than to discuss what Frank Herbert's next project would be, but he's been dead for 23 years now. That's sort of limiting.
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby redbugpest » 25 Sep 2009 21:19

    Like i said, I was just offering up my opinion.
    Ampoliros wrote:
    I don't consider this a hate site. Jacurutu is THE Dune fan site.


    It is really both. What I was saying is that you could increase membership and discussion by making some changes. If you look, out of all the new members since I joined, I have the 3rd highest post count, even after being gone a month. The vast majority of that group have a 0 count.

    It was just somthing to think about.
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby Ampoliros » 25 Sep 2009 21:28

    Perhaps, and I could be wrong, but most preek fans really only care about the pew-pew. They don't discuss Dune to the same extent we do because it doesn't matter as much to them.

    Reading Dune was a profound moment for me. I would be amazed at anyone making the same statement about KJA's writing; even his fans seem to only enjoy his work for its pace and its Michael Bay in print effect.
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby SandChigger » 25 Sep 2009 21:34

    So, if I can translate Pestie's post into normal English:

    "You've handed me my ass yet again so I'm going to try the old troll tactic of setting you against each other." :laughing:
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby SandRider » 26 Sep 2009 10:52

    also, if Keith was a better person, more open and honest about his intentions in the world
    of Young Adult Fiction and the truth about the notes, and not such a megalomaniacal blowhard
    about his career and his own meager talent, he'd be a more difficult target for ridicule.

    He's like Glenn Beck in that regard - he opens his mouth, sounds like a complete jackass,
    gets mocked. Doesn't get the reasoning behind the mocking, gets mad, acts like a bigger
    jackass, more mocking and so on.

    Keith's brought it on himself.
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    I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
    how to fully interact with people.
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby DuneFishUK » 26 Sep 2009 12:53

    redbugpest wrote:Like i said, I was just offering up my opinion.
    Ampoliros wrote:
    I don't consider this a hate site. Jacurutu is THE Dune fan site.


    It is really both. What I was saying is that you could increase membership and discussion by making some changes. If you look, out of all the new members since I joined, I have the 3rd highest post count, even after being gone a month. The vast majority of that group have a 0 count.

    It was just somthing to think about.


    Site: and % of members with postcount more than 10
    Jacurutu.com: 54%
    DuneNovels.com: 26%*

    *Includes freakbanned members

    I don't think the new-user-to-regular-poster rate here is too worrying. On the contrary, many new members (whether they stick around and become regular posters or not) say "Great to finally find other people who think KJA sucks dirty bottom" or words to that effect.

    I don't think Freak forcing more pro-nu-dune rhetoric onto the boards is the way forward... even though it worked on all those other preek sites... no... wait... what preek sites? :P

    What are the activity stats for KJASF? I'm sure Thing could work them into his next Us vs. Them post
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby redbugpest » 26 Sep 2009 14:47

    SandChigger wrote:So, if I can translate Pestie's post into normal English:

    "You've handed me my ass yet again so I'm going to try the old troll tactic of setting you against each other." :laughing:


    Wrong again - on both counts...

    :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby TheDukester » 26 Sep 2009 14:47

    DuneFishUK wrote:What are the activity stats for KJASF?

    Virtually non-existent, according to a recent post from LeGuille. It's around here somewhere ...
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby redbugpest » 26 Sep 2009 15:29

    Ampoliros wrote:Perhaps, and I could be wrong, but most preek fans really only care about the pew-pew. They don't discuss Dune to the same extent we do because it doesn't matter as much to them.

    Reading Dune was a profound moment for me. I would be amazed at anyone making the same statement about KJA's writing; even his fans seem to only enjoy his work for its pace and its Michael Bay in print effect.


    Well, I can't say it "changed my life" or "made me who I am" or any such thing as that, but the messages that FH put in them are worth knowing and sharing.

    You are probably right about a large cross section of people, but those are probably not people going to DN or any other Dune board anyway.

    This board does have an abundance of good Dune information, but you have to sift it out from the compost (so to speak).

    I personally think that any board that is left virtually unmoderated and left to evolve in a passive organic manner is doomed to entropy. What you want is to find ways to keep the site innovative and inviting to potential members, what ever their level of understanding or their opinion about new vs old.

    I did see the post The Dukester mentioned about traffic on KJASF, but was not trying to compare the two sites. It was more to illustrate my point about thinking about leadership and change. One of those new members who signed up posted a question about managing the forums and got an immediate nasty response. It does not look like they came back after that.

    And to address SC comment about my trying to pit you all against each other... No, it is not. But I will say this - the new SC graphic is - well - lacking. Not your best effort.
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby DuneFishUK » 26 Sep 2009 16:43

    redbugpest wrote:But I will say this - the new SC graphic is - well - lacking. Not your best effort.


    He's right you know.

    Here you go - I made it better :)

    Image

    (and only 12kb)
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby SandChigger » 26 Sep 2009 17:21

    redbugpest wrote:But I will say this - the new SC graphic is - well - lacking. Not your best effort.

    :lol:

    When I want the opinion of a taste-challenged hacksucker, rest assured you'll be the first I'll ask. :)
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby redbugpest » 26 Sep 2009 17:43

    DuneFishUK wrote:
    redbugpest wrote:But I will say this - the new SC graphic is - well - lacking. Not your best effort.


    He's right you know.

    Here you go - I made it better :)

    Image

    (and only 12kb)


    That is quite good! - If SC doesn't want to use it, would you mind if I passed it to a friend of mine?
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby Leto » 26 Sep 2009 18:43

    TheDukester wrote:For example, check the various reading groups for a good example of the only relevant Dune discussion going on anywhere right now on the interwebs.

    In english spoken language ;)

    In fact, we had the same discussion in our french forum community. The more P&tB wrote, the more we were disappointed. Some of them were glad to see Dune coming back thanks to the Houses. But from HA to HC, style came worse and the inconsistencies were huger. Legends and After Dune did not change things, on the contrary... Plus to these, the behavior of HLP on DN or in their ITW was unpleasant to us (many of us were banned of the Official forum -former DN- after we said we were disappointed by the prequels without any violence --> is it a way to consider your customers*, I don't think so).

    But, they remain the only topicality about Dune (except in 2010 with the Paramount Project, if they continue it). So, as the french reference forum community about Dune - yes, it's our purpose and we are not that bad- we cannot avoid them. But as we do not consider they belong to the canon (nor at the level of the McNelly's DE) we deciced to create a specific section on the forum. Nowadays, this section is our only link with the official communication with HLP (news about the preeks, ITW od P&tB, aso). As you're doing here, all the inconsistencies are listed, the ITW of BH or KJA are reported and commented (and trust me, we have some Chigg among us).
    But the most important section of our forum remains the Dune Discussion about Golden Path, Paul's Fate, the "Followers" vs the "Haters" of Leto II, and all the classical discussion about Frank Herbert's Dune (and, as I'm writing those "title", I've to congrate Harrison to title the miniseries like that to remind everybody of the creator of the masterpiece).

    As french fans of Duniverse, we would like :
      reading those famous notes (regarding all the matters for which P&tB refered to them, it should be an encyclopedia rather than simple notes...). I wish FH wrote in his testimony that noone has to re-write on Dune, as Hergé (the Tintin's author) did (and his heir published the few plate of his unpublished work)
      We do not wait for them they recognize their inconsistencies (it would be unprofitable and humiliated), but more humility is needed, especially to the lot of fan-projects (e.g. the spanish fanfilms). Instead of using some interesting materials or ideas (belonging the Copyright about Dune, they'll still make money, if it's what they're affrayed of...), they are detering creativity and they provoke that "HATE"
      We want they authorized a reedition of the DE and a translation in French. It's a fanwork which is so clever, so imaginative that it is criminal to private us with it. And to answer Keith who do not recognize it as a part of the "canon", I would say, "you're right and McNelly never claim that. But unlike yours, the DE received the "delightful approval" of Master Frank"


    * I say "customers" 'cause it's the way HLP is considering its readers...


    EDIT :
    I've been back in the States about ten days now. I don't think I've looked at KJA's Twatter page or blog once in that time. I really don't care what he's up to at present: HE IS OF NO IMPORTANCE.

    I do not agree. At the beginning Houses/Legends/After Dune, yes we could say "let them (cause Brian is guilty, too) alone, Time will do th job". But, due to their Interquels they're confusing/abusing the new readers they claim attracting to Dune. They're drowning the masterpiece among their crap. It's a shame (Brian is betraying his father) and a crime (KJA is aware of what he's doing)! That's why we're in Resistance agains their Stupid Followers!
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby TheDukester » 26 Sep 2009 19:33

    Leto wrote:
    TheDukester wrote:In english spoken language

    Yes, you're absolutely right. I'm only familiar with the English-language sites, but I shouldn't have assumed that there weren't any Dune-centric sites in the rest of the world.
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby Leto » 26 Sep 2009 19:38

    And there are in french, spanish (some tried to produce a film but HLP detered them) and even russian (with an interesting project around DE) !
    Dune is worldwide, and so does the OH :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: (search "dune+herbert" on Facebook and you'll see).
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby TheDukester » 26 Sep 2009 19:39

    DuneFishUK wrote:Here you go - I made it better :)

    Lawl! I am laughing my ass off now.

    Look at me! I'm going pew-pew-pew! in my cool sig! I feel like I'm the middle of a Kevin J. Anderson scene. :dance:
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby Tleszer » 26 Sep 2009 20:14

    Your sig brought a smile to my face, Duke. :D
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby redbugpest » 26 Sep 2009 20:16

    DuneFishUK wrote:
    redbugpest wrote:Like i said, I was just offering up my opinion.
    Ampoliros wrote:
    I don't consider this a hate site. Jacurutu is THE Dune fan site.


    It is really both. What I was saying is that you could increase membership and discussion by making some changes. If you look, out of all the new members since I joined, I have the 3rd highest post count, even after being gone a month. The vast majority of that group have a 0 count.

    It was just somthing to think about.


    Site: and % of members with postcount more than 10
    Jacurutu.com: 54%
    DuneNovels.com: 26%*

    *Includes freakbanned members

    I don't think the new-user-to-regular-poster rate here is too worrying. On the contrary, many new members (whether they stick around and become regular posters or not) say "Great to finally find other people who think KJA sucks dirty bottom" or words to that effect.

    I don't think Freak forcing more pro-nu-dune rhetoric onto the boards is the way forward... even though it worked on all those other preek sites... no... wait... what preek sites? :P

    What are the activity stats for KJASF? I'm sure Thing could work them into his next Us vs. Them post


    Sorry, but I do not half any stats for KJASF, but it is a closed board anyway, so it would not be a good comparison.

    I was just pointing out that, IF you wanted more dialog with people who do not share your views here, that changes would need to be made to accommodate that.
    Even if you do not, these boards would not suffer from some general cleanup, and more moderation. it seems that a lot of threads spin into off topic rhetoric, and no one does much to try and restore the focus.

    I did see an encouraging post by Freakzilla in the Mein Kampf thread that was encouraging, when he asked that people confine their dislike for one another to PM's or take it somewhere else. Unfortunately, It does not seem as though enough people are taking him seriously, since the hate is still dribbling out for some sources.
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby SandChigger » 26 Sep 2009 23:58

    DuneFishUK wrote:Here you go - I made it better :)

    Image

    (and only 12kb)

    Hey, Feesh, sorry, I forgot to thank you for the thought and effort earlier! The Dukester is already putting it to good use! :lol:


    Leto wrote:
    SandChigger wrote:I really don't care what [KJA]'s up to at present: HE IS OF NO IMPORTANCE.

    I do not agree. ...

    Leto, please keep what I wrote in context: for most of the next year or so KJA & BH will be working on and publicizing the first volume of their new SMELLHOLE bullshit series. Since I have ZERO interest in that, I have ZERO interest in KJA or what he's up to at present. That's all I meant.

    Rest assured, as soon as Kevin J. Anderson starts grunting and trying to stuff his flaccid cock up Dune's backside again, I'll be right there, jeering along with the rest of you. :D


    Hey, Pestie, maybe it's time someone reminded you of something. You may be a "member" here but I don't think anyone regards you as a REAL member. You didn't come here for honest interaction or to contribute or to learn anything. So frankly, I find your efforts here to act as some sort of representative for the downtrodden new members, or whatever the fuck it is you think you're doing, extremely offensive. FUCK you, you reading-challenged hacksucker.
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby redbugpest » 27 Sep 2009 00:23

    SandChigger wrote:
    DuneFishUK wrote:Here you go - I made it better :)

    Image

    (and only 12kb)

    Hey, Feesh, sorry, I forgot to thank you for the thought and effort earlier! The Dukester is already putting it to good use! :lol:


    Leto wrote:
    SandChigger wrote:I really don't care what [KJA]'s up to at present: HE IS OF NO IMPORTANCE.

    I do not agree. ...

    Leto, please keep what I wrote in context: for most of the next year or so KJA & BH will be working on and publicizing the first volume of their new SMELLHOLE bullshit series. Since I have ZERO interest in that, I have ZERO interest in KJA or what he's up to at present. That's all I meant.

    Rest assured, as soon as Kevin J. Anderson starts grunting and trying to stuff his flaccid cock up Dune's backside again, I'll be right there, jeering along with the rest of you. :D


    Hey, Pestie, maybe it's time someone reminded you of something. You may be a "member" here but I don't think anyone regards you as a REAL member. You didn't come here for honest interaction or to contribute or to learn anything. So frankly, I find your efforts here to act as some sort of representative for the downtrodden new members, or whatever the fuck it is you think you're doing, extremely offensive. FUCK you, you reading-challenged hacksucker.


    I understand what you are feeling. Change is a scary thing. I can put together a paper on dealing with change, with some reference material, if it would be helpful to you. I would suggest you start with "Who Moved My Cheese" as a good, quick read on dealing with change. It's just too easy to become Haw, and sit in the empty cheese station, angry and depressed because the cheese that you always had is gone, having slipped away without your even noticing.
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby SandChigger » 27 Sep 2009 00:35

    Why, THANK YOU! How very kind and helpful you are, hacksucker!

    And I must say, I'm really impressed by how functional you remain, with your head so firmly up KJA's asshole. :)

    (Now if you could just learn how to quote properly. :laughing: )
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