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    KJA Site

    Postby Redstar » 03 Sep 2009 06:14

    I've been here awhile so I have a fair understanding of various regular's opinions and perspectives, but I am curious if there's a general consensus in any particular direction.

    Basically, what do we want? Do we just like bitching about this guy, or are we looking for an admission of guilt? Or to stop KJA from writing in the Dune universe/get another writer? Or the notes/outline, and nothing else?

    I don't think we can accomplish any of those the way we are now, since we really only have two sites: Chig's blog and here (correct me if there's more). Though centralized, we lack presence which is why whatever we say can be swept under the rug.

    I feel that a site dedicated to explaining why, in reviews, excerpts, and quotations, and interviews (like Chig's blog, but more general and "professional") could be evidence enough to show people without a doubt that we're not just haters. I don't think such a site should be entirely Dune-based, since that suggests an agenda more specific and thus less reputable, so branching out and having sections on whatever else KJA has touched would be a good idea. This would also help in connecting the various angered fandoms so we can all say "Hey, we're not the only ones screwed" and KJA can no longer say that we're "few".

    It would take some work, but we've already got the Dune parts done here, so just organizing it in a cohesive, review-and-literary direction would be the focus, as well as a "mission statement" that makes it clear why it's important.

    Is this a good idea to anyone at all? If anything, it would probably turn up as the very first site in search engines. And that's definitely a good thing.
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby SandChigger » 03 Sep 2009 08:40

    Redstar wrote:Basically, what do we want? Do we just like bitching about this guy, or are we looking for an admission of guilt? Or to stop KJA from writing in the Dune universe/get another writer? Or the notes/outline, and nothing else?

    I don't think there's any point in hoping to get any sort of "admission of guilt" from any of the parties involved. (Maybe a deathbed recantation from BoBo, years down the line? Nah.) Or in getting KJA out of the picture in the near future. (By the time he's finished with the franchise, will ANY publisher still be interested in it?)

    While I've looked at some of both KJA and BoBo Herbowhore's other stuff, I'm not really interested in spending any more time on any of it. (As I've stated previously, for the majority of the next year or so, while they're "doing the Smellhole" and not McDune, KJA & Brian Herbert are of no relevance or interest to me whatsoever.)

    But that's just me. :)
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby Freakzilla » 03 Sep 2009 09:20

    This is a Dune site and I don't want it to turn into a KJA hate site.

    If y'all would like to compile reviews and quotes from his other squeezings, no problem. I'll make a forum just for that and I'll support the effort the best I can. I've been meaning to do a little rearranging anyway.

    As for what we hope to achieve, ideally KJA would stop writting Dune books and be banished to the moon.

    But realistically the best I could hope for is for KJA to admit there are inconsistancies between his books and the originals. Releasing "The Outline" would be nice too.
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby Ampoliros » 03 Sep 2009 10:06

    you can explain 2+2=4 and you'll still have idiots in the audience who will call you a '3 Hater'
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby TheDukester » 03 Sep 2009 10:29

    Redstar wrote:Basically, what do we want? Do we just like bitching about this guy, or are we looking for an admission of guilt? Or to stop KJA from writing in the Dune universe/get another writer? Or the notes/outline, and nothing else?

    That was an interesting post, with a lot of food for thought.

    But the passage above highlights a central problem: I don't think it's going to be possible to discover what we want. We are a group of hundreds of individuals (who have taken the time to sign up), of which dozens are at least occasional posters, of which a smaller group is more likely to post at least once per day. It's likely we don't have the same goals and beliefs, even if most of us can agree, in a general sense, that Kevin J. Anderson is a talentless douchebag and that the DUNE series has been cheapened by the annual hackwork he and that other idiot have churned out.

    Messageboards evolve naturally ... or at they have always, in my limited experience. Users will push and pull this way and that, admins will step in to guide a site toward what they envision it to be, and, in the end, a site will pretty much end up where it's meant to be. The rest is all just theory.

    A final thought: I think it will be interesting to see where we are in a year or so. I'm sort of with Chiggie: with no DUNE book scheduled for 2010, there will definitely be less reason to begin each day with a fervent prayer that TheKJA is crushed horribly by a runaway bus. So my guess is that we'll see more action in the reading groups and the general discussion forums, and a bit less of KJA in every thread.

    But whatever happens will just be a natural evolution; I don't think we need to go too far into "but what does Jacurutu mean" navel-gazing territory.
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby Serkanner » 03 Sep 2009 11:44

    This is a Dune discussion board not a "I hate KJA board", even though it helps if you do. To me it is a side-dish to bash the hack as much as possible. Most important is the combined Dune knowledge available here.
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby lotek » 03 Sep 2009 12:06

    well the KJhAte was what drove me here, and it was and still is fun to mock him, but only because he brings it on himself, anyone with a little self esteem and pride in his work would have adressed criticism in the best way ever, that is in improving one's work...
    ignoring critics and living in didadoo flanders style world won't do any good and just calls for slate, no doubt about that.

    But obviously this is just a sidedish and plain old banter, discussing Dune with people who know more about it than I do is what kept me here, as most of my friends are not the book type and it's always been tough to breach this kind of subject without appearing obnoxious...

    I guess that if I had ended up first on dumbnovels i would have still heard of jacurutu, it just saved me the hassle of talking to preeqs :)

    As for the direction of the board I can't really tell, IMO it's good as it is but I don't mind either way, I just doubt that real preeqs will be convinced by any argument we oppose, they are devout followers with nothing left of their free will and they sacrifice babies to make a beauty potion for Chewbecca, only a few more millions and she'll be allowed to leave the house alone without ending up in the pound.
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby Mandy » 03 Sep 2009 13:04

    Freakzilla wrote:This is a Dune site and I don't want it to turn into a KJA hate site.

    If y'all would like to compile reviews and quotes from his other squeezings, no problem. I'll make a forum just for that and I'll support the effort the best I can. I've been meaning to do a little rearranging anyway.


    You could just change the description of the prequel & sequel forum to include all that.
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby Freakzilla » 03 Sep 2009 13:10

    Mandy wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:This is a Dune site and I don't want it to turn into a KJA hate site.

    If y'all would like to compile reviews and quotes from his other squeezings, no problem. I'll make a forum just for that and I'll support the effort the best I can. I've been meaning to do a little rearranging anyway.


    You could just change the description of the prequel & sequel forum to include all that.


    That's an excellent idea, thanks Mandy.
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby Apjak » 03 Sep 2009 14:22

    If I had to make a list of what concessions we'd want from the HLP?

    1. Admit there are inconsistencies, and the Frank's books are obviously the canon ones.

    2. Turn the notes over to the Fullerton arcive.

    3. Open up the franchise to more and more careful people. I want Frank's legacy protected, but I don't want Dune to stop.
    I don't think the author should make the reader do that much work - Kevin J. Anderson
    We think we've updated 'Dune' for a modern readership without dumbing it down.- Brian Herbert
    There’s an unwritten compact between you and the reader. If someone enters a bookstore and sets down hard earned money(energy) for your book, you owe that person some entertainment and as much more as you can give. - Frank Herbert
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby SandRider » 03 Sep 2009 14:37

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Mandy wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:This is a Dune site and I don't want it to turn into a KJA hate site.

    If y'all would like to compile reviews and quotes from his other squeezings, no problem. I'll make a forum just for that and I'll support the effort the best I can. I've been meaning to do a little rearranging anyway.


    You could just change the description of the prequel & sequel forum to include all that.


    That's an excellent idea, thanks Mandy.



    I said that some where back - the sweet KJA-hatin' should be contained to a forum about
    his books, instead of the general Dune forum & Ghafla - but that's just where it's ended up.

    sometimes it's hard to go more than a few minutes on any topic without taking a potshot @the blowhard.

    I also said that now, at this point, there are way too many "off-topic" threads scattered around
    the forums - you could spend alot of time trying to cat-herd threads into appropriate topics. So
    I don't see the point in that. We just need to agree to keep the Keith-bashing in one place from
    here on out.

    as far a general "Kevin J. Anderson should Die in a Fire" site, I'd post on that all day long.
    But you'd have to go back and round up all those Star Wars tools that hated him then -
    he's out of their universe now, so they're probably happy. but, IMHO, Star Wars should
    die in a fire, too. Altho, I might be able to contain my contempt for The Forcers for
    the sake of roasting Keith.

    as far as what we "want", as a site - it's just too fucking late. Dune is not on the
    "Star Wars Fast Track" to irrelevence, it's crossed the finish line and has kicked up
    it's heels & started the hard drinking.

    it's just a matter of time until you can buy the entire collection of Keith's Dune @ amazon
    for a penny apiece.

    This is also where the difference between what's happened with Dune and what happened
    to Star Wars is apparent. All Keith did with Star Wars was dumb-over an already silly,
    irrelevant, teenage boy franchise, based on a fucking movie.
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby DuneFishUK » 03 Sep 2009 15:04

    The nu-dune saga is a great big, constantly-evolving, soap-opera, with running-battles, running-jokes and two clueless villains. Of course it gets talked about.

    There isn't a 2010 Dune book, but when a new reader mentions Dune online, some git always pipes up "You should read the series from the beginning [*prequels]. It gives the series more depth." (I copy/pasted that) and that isn't right.

    One idea could be to set up a Library board. Locked essay-style stickies that re-draft long, complicated, and occasionally off-topic threads into something to-the point and easily digestible to a newcomer. "Why the Prequels are wrong" type threads would be a few of them, but also stuff like "Intro to Dune" "FH Themes" etc etc. And put a links to a separate discussion threads/boards at the foot of each one.

    You could even set up a subdomain and point it at that one sub-forum. So it's easy to post links back to noob.jacurutu.com or whatever on amazon/blogs etc, whenever a bit of education is required.
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby Redstar » 03 Sep 2009 15:14

    For those confused, I didn't mean transforming this board in any way, but was suggesting the making of a completely new site.

    After waking up and thinking about it it seems less "important" since, as has been said, KJA's contribution to Dune is winding down and most likely will only be one to three more books (hopefully). So people may not care to rock the boat.

    But from my earlier perspective a site dedicated to seriously point out KJA's flaws in his writing from a scholastic standpoint (so not a hate site, really) could be useful. Personally I don't like undeserved arrogance. I enjoyed it when Stephen King had the guts to say Stephenie Meyer doesn't know how to write. She's written pulp trash that promotes sexism, abusive relationships, pedophilia, and other things, yet gets praise for it. I don't see why artists/writers shouldn't stand up and say "You suck", though I suppose King had "nothing to lose" in doing so. It surprises me that as bad as KJA is, there doesn't seem to be a lot of criticism his way... What happened to the good old days when Poe would rip to shreds any work in his reviews? The writing community was smaller then, and the writers met up and had orgies or whatever, but probably wrote too. They stuck together and set up everything writers try to emulate now (which is bullshit), so at least one review that takes the time to point out the issues in his work would be welcomed.

    As I said before, we lack presence. There's a lot that dislike what he's done, but we're divided by fandoms and most probably don't care anymore since he's gone from their particular franchise, but if there was a site documenting his atrocities all over and the site was affiliated with actual review sites that took Star Wars books, etc., and literature seriously, than that's a community that can't be ignored.

    If anything it'd get some media attention, since a site that makes it wonderfully obvious that KJA can't write is sure to get a few mentions on at least Star Wars and Dune sites, and if there's enough of that and the HLP/KJA can't refute it, maybe he's gone. Maybe before the Dune movie comes out.
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby DuneFishUK » 03 Sep 2009 15:58

    :P I think I made a mental jump somewhere there. What I missed was -

    I'm not opposed to a scholastic KJA hate-site, but I and others don't have a problem with KJA per-se... the problem lies with what he's doing to Dune. It is incredibly fun to make jokes etc at his expense, but the core of it is a matter of the desert. And as such a dedicated hate site, however in-depth, is of limited interest.

    Dune is my interest, and however behind-the-scenes/meta/sideshow KJA's nu-dune is, it is part of what Dune has become. And it is natural that a Dune forum should address this in some respect - How it does that without becoming a hate site or a moderation nightmare is the issue.

    One of the things I was getting at with my locked sticky brainfart was that it could offer a bit of closure to the obvious sticking points between new and old canon, Putting the obvious analyses where everyone can see, read and digest and allow us to get back to real Dune a bit more.

    EDIT - who cares about the media. Less publicity KJA gets, the better. Targeted truth is where it's at :)
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby Freakzilla » 03 Sep 2009 16:17

    DuneFishUK wrote:There isn't a 2010 Dune book, but when a new reader mentions Dune online, some git always pipes up "You should read the series from the beginning [*prequels]. It gives the series more depth." (I copy/pasted that) and that isn't right.


    KJA's shallowness is so thorough, it's almost like depth.
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby Mandy » 03 Sep 2009 17:48

    Redstar wrote:For those confused, I didn't mean transforming this board in any way, but was suggesting the making of a completely new site.


    A blog like this one (aimed at Harriet Klausner) http://harriet-rules.blogspot.com/ would probably be more successful than a forum, and easier to maintain.
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby Redstar » 03 Sep 2009 18:06

    Mandy wrote:
    Redstar wrote:For those confused, I didn't mean transforming this board in any way, but was suggesting the making of a completely new site.


    A blog like this one (aimed at Harriet Klausner) http://harriet-rules.blogspot.com/ would probably be more successful than a forum, and easier to maintain.

    Well, again, I wasn't suggesting a new forum, but a site. A blog such as your example would probable suit that purpose.
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby SandChigger » 04 Sep 2009 07:31

    Before, the only reason I looked at any of his other, non-Dune stuff was to prove to myself that he was in fact A BAD WRITER IN GENERAL, not just screwing up in the McDune books. And it gave me something to bitch about when the McDune material grew thin.

    NOW, I know he can't write for shit so I have no need to look at anything else by him. (I have ZERO interest in this Smellhole shit they're supposedly working on now.)

    I've been back in the States about ten days now. I don't think I've looked at KJA's Twatter page or blog once in that time. I really don't care what he's up to at present: HE IS OF NO IMPORTANCE.


    A blog on Blogger would probably be the easiest to maintain. And would be FREE to boot. (Just make sure to back everything up, in case someone complains and tries to get you shut down. ;) )
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby GamePlayer » 04 Sep 2009 13:53

    I don't think there's much that can be done about KJA; ultimately it's the consumer that is responsible for the mess that is McDune. If the books didn't make money, they wouldn't be sold. There's also a thousand KJA's out there.

    What I'd like to see is a reprint of the Dune Encyclopedia and publication of those infamous notes. That's about the best that I think can be expected (however slim). To get KJA to stop writing Dune books, to have him admit his work is fan fiction and have the HLP officially declare all the prequels as "unofficial" Dune would be a wet dream that has no chance of ever seeing reality. Watching all the McDune books burn in a big fire and all responsible brought to justice for crimes against literacy would be heaven :)
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby DuneFishUK » 04 Sep 2009 13:59

    I'd like to see reviewers stop feeling they have to put "...but fans will lap it up" at the end of negative reviews.
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby lotek » 04 Sep 2009 14:47

    Nice!
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby DuneFishUK » 04 Sep 2009 15:00

    lotek wrote:Nice!
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby SandRider » 04 Sep 2009 15:02

    DuneFishUK wrote:I'd like to see reviewers stop feeling they have to put "...but fans will lap it up" at the end of negative reviews.


    ditto.
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby lotek » 04 Sep 2009 15:03

    cool!
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    Re: KJA Site

    Postby Redstar » 04 Sep 2009 16:53

    Off-topic!

    Points have been taken and it does seem like a pointless endeavor, but it may be a fun enough project I'll do it at some point. I'm more interested in maintaining my other site at the moment, though.
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