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    Postby orald » 15 Jun 2008 09:59

    I haven't read the paper, Liquid. I'll try and gather my leaking wits to read it later, I'm too tired from kissing ass and pumping gas and not getting any friggin' tips. :( I hope they all have horrible car accidents and die! :D

    If we didn't have gender based thingies like "he" or "she" then how would I know the gender of this or that person without being given the name(and that too wouldn't help much sometimes) of the speaker etc?

    And what do you mean by equality then? What kind of equality can you really imagine(oh, I liked that "craving hierarchy" bit :roll: I'm still waiting for Mud'dib cuz I know only supernatural heroes can save us! Oh wait, that was The Normacle).
    All the "equality" I can think of is like in 1984, Brave New World etc, and you don't actually see any equality there either- unless everyone does and IS the same there's no real equality. And that also means one gender only.

    I'm sorry if I'm not up to intricate linguistics here, I've never had a professional(or any) diploma in it, and I do prefer making it simpler, blunter as it were, to shorten it(though I guess some things go out in the translation).
    How DOES the gender-based nature of English really cultivate and propegate a real inequality between the genders? Not just some detached philosophical argument for bored or man-hating linguists please(talk about anger issues with her :roll: ).
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    Postby LiquidBlue » 15 Jun 2008 10:39

    Do you just have a general dislike for feminist theory? If you haven't read Hardman's essay and know virtually know nothing about her, how can you call her (or me, for that matter) a man-hater? She is married to a MAN...has friends and students that are men...how do you know she has "anger issues"...She happens to teach at a college about 3 hours from where I live and I know quite a few people that were her students. They seem to find her to be a nice person, not a rampaging anger management issue.

    Gender inequality is well doccumented, you can't deny that...what is wrong with her applying her field of study to a topic that touches her as a person? Not to mention that is has wider implications, such as racism, ethnocentrism, ect. What good is knowledge if we don't apply it to the world around us?

    If we didn't have gender based thingies like "he" or "she" then how would I know the gender of this or that person without being given the name(and that too wouldn't help much sometimes) of the speaker etc?


    Why does it matter? Does it make my argument less vaild because I am a woman, does it make yours less vaild because you are a man?

    You also have to deal with the idea that gender is fluid (not fixed) and culturally determined. What is "masculine" in one country might be "feminine" in another country or even cultural context. If thats the case (and it is) then gender isn't 100% biologically determined.

    How DOES the gender-based nature of English really cultivate and propegate a real inequality between the genders?


    From my paper:
    “If you turn somebody with no memory loose in a foreign country with only the words for tools and machine parts, don’t be surprised if he ends up a mechanic. By manipulating his vocabulary properly you can just as easily make him a sailor, or an artist” (Delany 214)1. This idea expresses the essence of a linguistic concept called derivational thinking by M.J. Hardman. “Derivational thinking is the structure our language gives us for human relations” (“Sexist Circuits” 32). ...
    The postulates of English constrain speakers to lead a hierarchical existence. English has three mutually reinforcing postulates: number, ranking (comparative/superlative: good, beter, best) and sex based gender. “We summarize the three postulates with the following trilogy: number is important, number one is the most important, number one is masculine” (Taylor). Singular and plural, or number, is present in almost all sentences in the English language. As a child learns singular and plural, she also learns that singular is the best, which is connected with the postulate concerning ranking. Ranking places the English speaker in a position to acknowledge community only as a field of competition. Only one person can be the winner. Only one person can be the best. Even when groups of humans are the subject of speech, one is the desired outcome. This is illustrated by the “melting pot” metaphor applied to the United States. Though many cultures are represented in the United States, there is an attempt to represent only a singular U.S. culture.


    Do you agree that most concious thought occurs though the use of a language?

    If you don't have the proper language to articulate a thought, how can you think it? If you don't have a language that allows men and women to be the same thing, how do you think it? If you don't have language that allows Black and White people to be the same thing, then how can you stop dividing humanity?

    I suppose my idea of equality is that people should be judged as individuals in a non-arbituary fashion (Black/white is an arbituary distinction dependent on the judger, same as hot and cold, orange and red, soft and hard, and even masculine and femenine...)

    Enough with the :roll: its flippant, and if thats how you really feel, then I won't take my time to debate with you...
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    Postby orald » 15 Jun 2008 11:56

    Might be a little confused...lots to type here. EDIT: Wow, lots of emberassing typos there, hope I ironed all the bugs out(don't you hate when you get those pesky chiggers stuck inbetween your words?).

    LiquidBlue wrote:Do you just have a general dislike for feminist theory?

    Yes, yes I do. Feminist, schauvinist- all crap. Stop trying to push one gender/race forward is what I say.
    Especially on the backs of others- that only brings more resentment and later troubles.

    If you haven't read Hardman's essay and know virtually know nothing about her, how can you call her (or me, for that matter) a man-hater? She is married to a MAN...has friends and students that are men...how do you know she has "anger issues"...She happens to teach at a college about 3 hours from where I live and I know quite a few people that were her students. They seem to find her to be a nice person, not a rampaging anger management issue.

    Maybe she saves it all for the written word? :wink:
    I can't tell you about her beside what I see with her "there's no place for hierarchy and gender in our language", assuming I got that conclusion right.

    Gender inequality is well doccumented, you can't deny that...what is wrong with her applying her field of study to a topic that touches her as a person?

    I fear she's trying to bullshit her way into some radical conclusion.
    Somewhat like that angry reviewer(female BTW) who accused Tolkien's LoTR of fear of women or somesuch because to her Sheelob's description reminded a hidious vagina. No joke. Hyp?

    What good is knowledge if we don't apply it to the world around us?

    What good is it when applied in order to find pre-determined concluions?
    Chig hints at it, frankly I'm afraid I'll probably get lost in the jargon if I try and read it. I know I'm not up to the task of completely analysing her article.

    Why does it matter? Does it make my argument less vaild because I am a woman, does it make yours less vaild because you are a man?

    Yea! You's womens should be tanks for baby making and spice and gholas! :P

    No, but I find the added information better than substructing it.
    It also makes relationships more intimate if one recognizes one in some way and not just calls one "one" like in this humble one's example here.

    You also have to deal with the idea that gender is fluid (not fixed) and culturally determined. What is "masculine" in one country might be "feminine" in another country or even cultural context. If thats the case (and it is) then gender isn't 100% biologically determined.

    Sure everything is relative, but every culture has its defenitions of what those values are. Making them neutral and trying to make them disappear won't do so.
    And I do believe, correct me if I'm wrong, that there's at least a strong general tendency to agree on major gender issues among most societies, which is probably biological in nature.
    They do believe that, say, a woman births and a man can piss standing up all round the world, right(lovely examples, eh?)?

    Men and women are different physically and mentally(well, a deriviative of their physical difference since the brain is a physical object after all).
    This includes alot of hormonal differences and different thought patterns.

    I hardly believe growing up and learning that God hates gays and that a woman and kids is what every man should want would make me "bi" if cultural influences were so dominant as you suggest.
    Biology's at work here, and it ain't giving a damn about culture in terms of what one likes or not, only in how much and in what way one might express it outwardly(oh, you could argue about fetishes, or specific ones, but that might also be partly biological and it's more like accentricities anyway than "gender" defenitions).

    From my paper:
    As a child learns singular and plural, she also learns that singular is the best,

    Huh? Singular in context as "the smartest one in class" or just "singular" and opposed to "plural"? So one dollar in the hand is better than 2? :?

    which is connected with the postulate concerning ranking. Ranking places the English speaker in a position to acknowledge community only as a field of competition.

    Talk about politically correct BS. Evolution has in its view only the betterment of oneself or at least the close sphere around oneself that supports said individual and offsprings(i.e spouse, relatives, friends, co-workers...and in extension countrymen[and women! :roll: reminds me of The Life of Brian forum scene] and then spicies etc etc ever outward, but the main thing is what's close to you).

    Only one person can be the winner. Only one person can be the best.

    Well, nowdays in order to not affront the kids they all win, don't they? :roll:
    That's why P&B's books are best-sellers, so they wouldn't be ashamed they aren't. Or something. :?

    Even when groups of humans are the subject of speech, one is the desired outcome. This is illustrated by the “melting pot” metaphor applied to the United States. Though many cultures are represented in the United States, there is an attempt to represent only a singular U.S. culture.

    And here I thought the whoe purpose of a "melting pot" it to melt, mix and come up with a new, singular alloy. Silly silly me, should've researched metalorgy better.
    And wait, are you for or against melting pots? By eradicating destinctions you surely are for, but in this example you seem to be criticizing it. :?

    Do you agree that most concious thought occurs though the use of a language?

    Yes.

    If you don't have the proper language to articulate a thought, how can you think it?

    Well, then I can't, I agree(and 1984 was given as an example to this very thing BTW).

    If you don't have a language that allows men and women to be the same thing, how do you think it?

    They're all the same?! :o I never knew chicks had dicks! I'd have run to them way sooner if I did! :D No, uh, I mean the other way round...or something. :oops:

    You should've realized by now that men and women ARE different in many ways, yet the same in many other.

    Are you riled up about FH too because God Leto claims there are differences?

    If you don't have language that allows Black and White people to be the same thing, then how can you stop dividing humanity?

    So now you want me to be color blind too?
    When a policeman describes a suspect, is he supposed to not mention the skin color cuz it might offend someone?
    Are you not blond because it might offend redheads?

    I suppose my idea of equality is that people should be judged as individuals in a non-arbituary fashion (Black/white is an arbituary distinction dependent on the judger, same as hot and cold, orange and red, soft and hard, and even masculine and femenine...)

    Qualifications only, like I said earlier. We agree.

    Enough with the :roll: its flippant, and if thats how you really feel, then I won't take my time to debate with you...

    Aww, c'mon, it ain't that bad. If you can stand those abnoxious kids you teach surely yer up to a nice guy like me. :)


    :twisted:

    Now...I think maybe you got the wrong impression of me(in no small way thanks to this here board's lovable members :x ).

    I'm not a schauvinist, racist(well, I hate anyone named Anderson now, but that's a different matter), woman-hater etc.

    All I'm saying is that feminism seems to be(and act) more about attacking the previous opressors and building up a new system with some new jerks on top.
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

    I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
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    Postby Robspierre » 15 Jun 2008 13:03

    Orald said:


    [quoteAll I'm saying is that feminism seems to be(and act) more about attacking the previous opressors and building up a new system with some new jerks on top.[/quote]


    Gee is this not in any way similar to what Israel is doing now?

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    Postby orald » 15 Jun 2008 13:14

    Umm...by using arms to protect its citizens and keep them alive?
    Guess they don't have any right to live, do they? :roll:


    Or did you fail to notice the UN thingy from '47 that devided the place legally, and how someone's been attackig someone else continuously over 6 decades now in an effort to turn back that decision?
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

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    Postby Mandy » 15 Jun 2008 14:16

    orald, you believe exactly what feminist bashers want you to believe. How is trying to get equal treatment pushing one gender forward at the expense of the other? Feminists want equal rights under the law, not to be above the law or some such shit. Yes, there are annoying militant feminists out there, but they aren't any more annoying than anyone else pushing their agendas.

    You miss the point, I think.. it's not about men and women being physically and mentally equal. It's about being treated equally. If you're going to use the 'men and women are different' argument, surely you realize that no two people are equal regardless of gender? There will always be one smarter, stronger, faster.. etc.
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    Postby dm1215 » 15 Jun 2008 14:33

    Who is this Orald man? You seem very angry or trying to pick a fight. Am I missing something? I can't believe that someone would say such things and truly believe them. Are you being sarcastic?
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    Postby Phaedrus » 15 Jun 2008 15:10

    Orald is a very special person with incredibly extreme views that I almost completely disagree with. He's alright, you just have to remember he cares more about his post-count than he does about how people view him.

    And come on, Orald, that argument won't fly. No, people aren't equal. But they shouldn't be treated differently based on completely arbitrary standards that they can't even change about themselves. It's not right to say that one race is inherently superior to another, and then elevate the one over the other in society, and it's not right to do that with gender, either. Maybe you missed history class...every day, but women have had a pretty tough break throughout history. Feminists just say that it's time society treated women like, you know, people.
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    Postby orald » 15 Jun 2008 15:28

    Mandy, I've already pointed out twice, at least, that I agree there should be no descrimination.
    But these laws to "encourage" certain sectors are made on the back of other sectors.

    How much inequallity is there in the law nowdays in countries like the USA anyway? How are they descriminated there?

    Is proposing wild ideas about changing the basic structure of English in any way better the situation?

    Phaedrus wrote:And come on, Orald, that argument won't fly. No, people aren't equal. But they shouldn't be treated differently based on completely arbitrary standards that they can't even change about themselves. It's not right to say that one race is inherently superior to another, and then elevate the one over the other in society, and it's not right to do that with gender, either. Maybe you missed history class...every day, but women have had a pretty tough break throughout history. Feminists just say that it's time society treated women like, you know, people.

    Has anyone actually read my posts here? Same as above to Mandy.

    Maybe feminists should go hike in Afghanistan etc and preach to those who have yet to be enlightened.

    If Hillary got close to being a candidate for presidency(and might get there next time) then IDK what laws are discriminating women in the USA so much.
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    Postby Phaedrus » 15 Jun 2008 15:33

    On average, women in the U.S. are still paid only 79 cents(or something like that) to every dollar that a man makes in a similar job.
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    Postby orald » 15 Jun 2008 16:00

    Is that the law? No.

    That the average man earns more than the average woman is well known, but it's also due to the jobs they work at.
    There are already lots of laws about making room just for women in managing positions etc.
    Next you'll want 90% to be women mandatorily and then you'll wonder why you can't get a job.

    I'm all for equality, but how is it equallity if I'll be he one bearing the weight of it all?

    I believe they've finally canceled this automatic posession of the children by the mother when a couple devorces here in Israel.
    Now why does a husband have to both give up his kids(they're his kids too) AND finance the woman who sometimes earns the same if not more?
    Where's the justice and equality in that?
    Or in securing places in universities for Arabs and giving them lower demands to pass?

    That's the thing that bothers me the most. How's it called, corrective descrimination? That's about the literal translation from the name for it here.
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    Postby Robspierre » 15 Jun 2008 16:06

    orald wrote:Is that the law? No.

    That the average man earns more than the average woman is well known, but it's also due to the jobs they work at.


    Wrong, same jobs, same responsibilities, less pay for women, and while factors such as experience and seniority do play roles in pay scales, there are still many jobs that will pay a woman less than a man rven if the woman has more experience.

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    Postby orald » 15 Jun 2008 16:19

    Then it's the women's fault for not exercising all these fancy laws.
    Or will someone say that no one would try to enforce them?
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    Postby Robspierre » 15 Jun 2008 16:34

    Or maybe the oman knows if she does try things will be made so hard on her that she knows she will have ot decide if it is worth risking it to get equal treatment.

    It is never black and white and simple Orald when it comes to human interaction.

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    Postby orald » 15 Jun 2008 16:50

    Sure it is- just eliminate he/she and everything will be A OK.
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    Postby Robspierre » 15 Jun 2008 17:20

    Eliminating gender will not do anything, you have to change the cultural perceptions associated with those words that have nothing to do with gender.

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    Postby Serkanner » 15 Jun 2008 17:22

    Orald ... I am only going to post this only once:

    SHUT UP!

    You are so high on your own idea of "being right" that you forget to think straight and check your position and facts.

    Do that first before you continue to spread your anger. It is very tiring for this old man.
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    Postby LiquidBlue » 15 Jun 2008 17:25

    Once again Orald, you're argument is just based on a bizarre trajectory of what is being said and what is factually known in *our* world. Seeing as how you are from part of the world with deep and extremely patriarchal roots, I can at least understand where your arguments are coming from...but you are refusing to argue with facts and I won't play that game. I've given you facts and you give me emotional assumptions. You are this [ ] far away from a caveman, woman barefoot in the kitchen mentality...so I'll have my believes and I'll try not to step on yours (of course, if a woman being able to conduct an intelligent conversation and stand her ground bothers your sense of self you'll just have to deal with it) You can respond if you like, but I'm finished with this wacky conversation

    As far as my opinion on FH based on my "feminist" view point...The ideas and power given to women in FHs books are, in my opinion, ground breaking ideas for his time. Every time I read about the BG I think that he must have had an AMAZING wife. Is it perfect, no, could I critique it, yes...but I admire the brilliance of his writing and the forwardness of his thinking every single time I read his books...
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    Postby chanilover » 15 Jun 2008 17:40

    Robspierre wrote:I see Pardot lists his location as Texas, he must be outside of Austin because that would be the only place in Texas that wouldn't consider druids satanic from my experiences.

    Pagans are not looked upon favorably in certain parts of the US.

    Rob


    Why should they be? They're just another bunch of religious loons, same as Christians.
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    Postby chanilover » 15 Jun 2008 17:47

    LiquidBlue wrote:Once again Orald, you're argument is just based on a bizarre trajectory of what is being said and what is factually known in *our* world. Seeing as how you are from part of the world with deep and extremely patriarchal roots, I can at least understand where your arguments are coming from...but you are refusing to argue with facts and I won't play that game. I've given you facts and you give me emotional assumptions. You are this [ ] far away from a caveman, woman barefoot in the kitchen mentality...so I'll have my believes and I'll try not to step on yours (of course, if a woman being able to conduct an intelligent conversation and stand her ground bothers your sense of self you'll just have to deal with it) You can respond if you like, but I'm finished with this wacky conversation

    As far as my opinion on FH based on my "feminist" view point...The ideas and power given to women in FHs books are, in my opinion, ground breaking ideas for his time. Every time I read about the BG I think that he must have had an AMAZING wife. Is it perfect, no, could I critique it, yes...but I admire the brilliance of his writing and the forwardness of his thinking every single time I read his books...


    A lot of what you've said is interesting, but I don't think trying to change the language will affect people's thinking, it's more likely to be the other way around, and what works in one culture wouldn't work in another.

    As an example, Blacks in the US have taken to calling themselves African American, but Blacks here in the UK call themselves Black, and the majority of Blacks in the UK are from families who came over from the West Indies in the 1950s onwards and would not call themselves African. Some actually look down their noses at Blacks from Africa and make fun of them. One of my mates was born and raised in the UK but his parents are from the West Indies, and he says things about Nigerians that make my jaw drop. They also make me laugh, but in a way I know is wrong. It's still funny, though.

    Things can change gradually, but they shouldn't be forced, it just causes resentment. I'm quite enjoying Orald's points, it's good to see Western PC ideas being challenged.
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    Postby Mandy » 15 Jun 2008 18:16

    chanilover wrote: I'm quite enjoying Orald's points, it's good to see Western PC ideas being challenged.


    That is one of the reasons I love orald.. he is abrasive, but if you really try to understand what he is saying, he usually has a good point.

    orald, I don't think it's necessary to add more laws to bring about equality for women, or any race. We have enough now, if they're just enforced. It doesn't take any manly skills to sit at a computer all day, so there is no reason for a man to make more than a woman if they're both qualified. The reason this still happens is because people do not discuss their salaries, and often a woman doesn't discover she hasn't been paid fairly for several years, and sometimes not until after she's retired. If you don't file a complaint in a certain amount of time, there is nothing you can do about it.
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    Postby LiquidBlue » 15 Jun 2008 18:25

    Blacks in America do not refer to themselves as African American. They refer to themselves as Black. Aferican American is the PC term used by mostly white/upper class people and the entities that pander to them (ie: the media). The example of your friend is an example of ethnocentrism. My "culture" is better /more civilized/more advanced/cleaner than your "culture". Still its an arbitrary claim...

    Linguistic drift is generally a gradual process, if I remember correctly. No one is saying "That's it! If you dare use the words he and she again we will throw you in jail, fine you, or in some other way make things horrible for you"...I use "he" and "she" and "man" and "woman"...

    Orald's arguments are doing no one a favor. They come off as fanatical and do not follow logically from the things I have said or the things Hardman has said. Until he can back his ideas up with facts or intellectually recognized theory, his arguments are mute. I backed my arguments with scientific/genetic theory and linguistic theory...I can cite studies and statistics, philosophical arguments, historical representations of women, and anthropological theory if need be...now where are the facts to back up Orald's claim that all feminists are men-hating and are trying to put women ahead of men?

    I agree with him, believe it or not, in that we ARE a hierarchical society/species where gender DOES matter...but I think that its wrong...I think it may be our ultimate doom...all evolution is retroactive!
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    Postby Phaedrus » 15 Jun 2008 18:26

    I don't think a language change will fix the situation, either, but I don't think feminism equates to elevating women over men.

    LiquidBlue wrote:Orald's arguments are doing no one a favor. They come off as fanatical and do not follow logically from the things I have said or the things Hardman has said. Until he can back his ideas up with facts or intellectually recognized theory, he arguments are mute.


    Hey, I was just about to say something very similar to that, but thought better of it(apparently I've been "pushing it" with orald lately). Of course, you make it sound nicer than I would. :D
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    Postby chanilover » 15 Jun 2008 18:47

    LiquidBlue wrote:Blacks in America do not refer to themselves as African American. They refer to themselves as Black. Aferican American is the PC term used by mostly white/upper class people and the entities that pander to them (ie: the media). The example of your friend is an example of ethnocentrism. My "culture" is better /more civilized/more advanced/cleaner than your "culture". Still its an arbitrary claim...



    No, it's more a case of West Indians feeling that they're the one who had the struggle to become accepted into UK society and who look at immigrants from Africa as being free-loading spongers.

    Attitudes to immigration in the UK are strange. White working class people tend to ironically have the same attitude to new immigrants as older immigrant families, whilst white middle class people are all for mass immigrantion. Why not, it gives them a cheap source of labour for nannies and housecleaners.

    I really laugh when my mum starts complaining about all the immigrants, as she's originally from the Philippines. She always says, oh in my day it was different, we came to work, not to live off social security!

    As for Orald, his views are as valid as anyone else's here. I do find what you're saying interesting, but it just seems like one opinions amongst others. I don't agree with the hierarchical structure being the doom of humanity, hierarchy is built into human nature. I think our doom will probably come from a massive asteroid, rather than our not being able to find alternatives to he and she.
    "You and your buddies and that b*tch Mandy are nothing but a gang of lying, socially maladjusted losers." - St Hypatia of Arrakeen.
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    Postby LiquidBlue » 15 Jun 2008 19:06

    As for Orald, his views are as valid as anyone else's here. I do find what you're saying interesting, but it just seems like one opinions amongst others. I don't agree with the hierarchical structure being the doom of humanity, hierarchy is built into human nature. I think our doom will probably come from a massive asteroid, rather than our not being able to find alternatives to he and she.


    His views are emotional opinions...its like saying "KJA&BH's books are thematically more complex than FH's Dune novels and more socially relevant" and then not being able to point to a passage from the book to demonstrate your assertion.

    I have already said that I agree that hierarchy IS built into human nature. Hierarchy is built into us by genetic selection, it manifests itself in everything we do. I have not said that the hierarchical structure of language will bring about the down fall of humanity. Its a symptom of, not the source of, our hierarchical drive. Hierarchy cannot exist without conflict...the ultimate conflict is war. We, humanity, have enough instruments of war to sitting around the planet to kill every human being on it...

    Thanks for the support Phaedrus
    Some never participate. Life happens to them. They get by on little more than dumb persistence and resist with anger or violence all things that might lift them out of resentment-filled illusions of security.
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