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    Spicelon II

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    Spicelon II

    Postby Spicelon » 04 Apr 2008 14:42

    Forgive me for I have sinned. My original intro thread didn't mention that I also post (sparingly) at Haven and (less sparingly) at A(U) as Star Dust. I don't think that that's a bad thing, i.e. that I was an asshole in either place. I was an asshole at Haven once, when CountZero was being particularly sensitive to criticism, but I think that's the worst of it.
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    Postby Freakzilla » 04 Apr 2008 14:57

    Thanks for the copy of Dune with chapter and line numbers!
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    Postby Spicelon » 04 Apr 2008 15:02

    Freakzilla wrote:Thanks for the copy of Dune with chapter and line numbers!


    I'm telling you, that's the key to the Annotated Dune Project (ADP). If we get all the texts like that, we can build quite the reference database. I have lots of ideas about this, btw. ;)
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    Postby orald » 04 Apr 2008 15:43

    That's OK, I barely remember any of those names, and I get confused between most of you. :P

    Weren't you on my MSN contacts for a while? Or was it some other one that I don't know as well?
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    Postby Spicelon » 04 Apr 2008 16:12

    orald wrote:That's OK, I barely remember any of those names, and I get confused between most of you. :P

    Weren't you on my MSN contacts for a while? Or was it some other one that I don't know as well?


    Ya, but I don't even know my MSN login anymore.
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    Postby orald » 04 Apr 2008 17:59

    Ah, good, so I wouldn't have to explain why you're off my list then... :P
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    Postby Omphalos » 04 Apr 2008 20:51

    Spicelon wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:Thanks for the copy of Dune with chapter and line numbers!


    I'm telling you, that's the key to the Annotated Dune Project (ADP). If we get all the texts like that, we can build quite the reference database. I have lots of ideas about this, btw. ;)


    That is exactly what I thought when I saw it. That it would be an awesome way to reference things in that project.
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    Postby SandChigger » 04 Apr 2008 23:21

    One suggestion:

    What you're calling "line numbers" are actually paragraph numbers, no? (In a text file each "line" actually continues until the next line break/carriage return...usually at the end of a paragraph.)

    How about referring to the sentences in each "line" using a small roman letter, when(ever) more precision is wanted/needed?

    So D24:4b would refer to Dawn was spreading over the shattered outline of cliffs across the basin, touching everything with pink. (Dune, chapter 24, line/paragraph 4, second sentence.)
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

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    Postby Omphalos » 04 Apr 2008 23:57

    Im not sure we should require the sentence to be identified. Isnt "chapter and verse" enough (and yes, Captain Nomenclature, I really mean "page and clause," but "chapter and verse" rolls off the tongue. :wink:
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    Postby SandChigger » 05 Apr 2008 06:23

    I wasn't suggesting it be required, only that it be out there as an option; thus "when(ever) more precision is wanted/needed". ;)

    I'm just thinking of the case where you have a long paragraph and only one or two sentences is relevant and needs to be quoted. Sure, "chapter and verse" is enough to allow someone to find them. If it's not worth the effort, it's not worth getting bothered over.

    Maybe for longish paragraphs just add T/M/B for Top / Middle / Bottom?

    Just suggestions. :)
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Postby Spicelon » 05 Apr 2008 08:59

    Great suggestion Chig. It can be done. I write a shit ton of macros in Excel, so I taught myself how to do the same in Word. Numbering sentences in paragraphs is totally doable. Keep in mind, though, that such a document actually starts to become unreadable, what with numbers everywhere. Still great to have as a reference.

    A couple of key things to keep in mind: before actually implementing such a beast, it's gonna take lots and lots of proofreading and QA/QC. Once it's set and people start marking their own "favorite paragraphs" etc., it fucks everyone up if you change the paragraph numbers, so that's gotta be right as rain from the get go. Also with my Word docs, I still need to go through and make some format changes, like italicising words that Frank has italicized, etc. I'm a stickler for details, ;)

    Anyway, I will be on vaca all next week, but I totally intend to keep going with this, at least for my own personal use. I will let it known when Messiah is done
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    Postby orald » 05 Apr 2008 14:44

    Spicelon wrote:Keep in mind, though, that such a document actually starts to become unreadable, what with numbers everywhere.

    I'm not sure I'm getting this straight, but wouldn't that be like the Bible?
    That's filled with chapter and verse numbers as well.
    And if you take a Jewish version of the books(or the Talmud), they're filled with tons of annotations and explenations all around the text, and it's very readable.

    Image
    this is a bad quality picture, but it'll serve.
    the long, bigger text in the middle is actually all the original text, and everything around it is annotations.
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    Postby SandChigger » 05 Apr 2008 17:46

    FURTHER CLARIFICATION!

    I wasn't actually suggesting those sentence-identifying/numbering letters be inserted into the text! People can count them/do in their heads, no?


    (I always thought Talmud looked really neat. Swiping images from Wikipedia, eh? ;) )
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Postby Freakzilla » 05 Apr 2008 18:11

    Aren't wiki images free use?
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    Postby SandChigger » 05 Apr 2008 18:48

    Freakzilla wrote:Aren't wiki images free use?

    Yep. It was a joke, not a real accusation!
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Postby orald » 05 Apr 2008 21:01

    IDK about neat, I'd say it's pretty cluttered because of all those annotations(and those are just some main ones, not the seconday or obscure), but considering the amount of said annotations I think they've done a pretty good job of arranging it.

    So you could swipe the Talmud and Torah Books design.
    After all, Dune IS a holy book. :D
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

    I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
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    Postby SandChigger » 05 Apr 2008 23:03

    Neat as in NEATO COOL! ;)


    (I've collected a few volumes of the Steinsaltz. Interesting to look through. I remember how freaked out I was seeing the word ampura (I think that was it) "marketplace" in one of the commentaries. It had never occurred to me before that the writers would have used loanwords, especially from Greek. :shock: It's from emporion "emporium".)
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Postby orald » 06 Apr 2008 00:12

    Uh, didn't you know it's written at least half in Arameic(sp?)?
    There're specific annotations to translate just that.

    Lots of words today that are Arameic or Greek in origin.
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

    I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
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    Postby SandChigger » 06 Apr 2008 05:27

    Actually, Hebrew wasn't really being spoken that much by that time; everyone spoke Aramaic. I simply had this image in my head that they (the rabbis writing the Talmud) would have been more purist in their language, using only Aramaic or Hebrew.

    I was wrong. :)
    I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

    I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

    I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA
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    Postby orald » 06 Apr 2008 06:02

    SandChigger wrote:Actually, Hebrew wasn't really being spoken that much by that time; everyone spoke Aramaic.

    Yea, I know.

    I don't think Hebrew was considered a holy language back then, it gained this status by being practically dead for millenia(much like Jesus it seems, only he had to be dead for a second to get that :lol: ).

    You should also remember that half(actually, more than half I think, as the center wasn't Israel for quite a long time) the guys who discussed things there were from the persian empire and the likes(Babel).
    In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

    I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
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