Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

I began reading Dune books over the summer, just completed Messiah and working through Children at the moment. I am primarily a Star Wars fan, having read nearly all of the adult novels at some point or another. I am now re-reading them for my blog (http://shepherd492.blogspot.com/), and I've added Dune to my reading list to somewhat diversify things. It is quite a different read than Star Wars, being more scientific in areas, and far more philosophical than all but a small number of Star Wars books. I look forward to some helpful feedback for my blog, critiquing my style, offering improvements, et cetera, and learning more about Dune from people more hardcore than I'll ever hope to be on the subject.

Great to have you here! Feel free to post any and all questions you have, I know I had a lot after reading them the first time, and there's layer after layer to dig through.

Watch out for spoilers from the 3.5 books you have left to read, those get discussed a lot here!

And hey, since you're a Star Wars EU fan, ever hear of someone called Kevin J Anderson?

Hahahaha the Jedi Academy trilogy was so mind numbingly bad. Daala was a villain I had high hopes for, but she ended up being a worthless commander, arrogant moron, and completely unlikeable. Anytime she was in a novel outside of the trilogy, it absolutely killed me, and then they appointed her as Chief of State of the Alliance and I've not bought any books of the new series pretty much solely because of that. Not to mention all the other crazy nonsense that happened in that series; Luke's weird characterization, another super weapon, ridiculous force powers...To be fair, Young Jedi Knights actually wasn't bad for a children's series, and it served a vital role in introducing characters for the New Jedi Order series and beyond. Maybe he should stick to children's books?

Shepherd492 wrote:Maybe he should stick to children's books?

Naaah, I know too many kids who hate his writing.

Welcome!

Shepherd492 wrote:Hahahaha the Jedi Academy trilogy was so mind numbingly bad. Daala was a villain I had high hopes for, but she ended up being a worthless commander, arrogant moron, and completely unlikeable. Anytime she was in a novel outside of the trilogy, it absolutely killed me, and then they appointed her as Chief of State of the Alliance and I've not bought any books of the new series pretty much solely because of that. Not to mention all the other crazy nonsense that happened in that series; Luke's weird characterization, another super weapon, ridiculous force powers...To be fair, Young Jedi Knights actually wasn't bad for a children's series, and it served a vital role in introducing characters for the New Jedi Order series and beyond. Maybe he should stick to children's books?

Perfect then, if you didn't already know, KJA is the asshat who took over adding to the Dune universe - so stay away from the garbage he wrote and you'll remain a happy person!

Oh I do know (I found out about this site through Chigger's excellent blog---needless to say KJA is a frequent topic there) and I will be reading atleast the first few because I made the mistake of buying the House trilogy, winds of dune, and dune 7 part 1 and 2 BEFORE i found out how bad they were. I suppose it's also more content for my blog. Oh well, slamming terrible literature is fun and easy!

WHAT?!? They made Daala Head of State?



Thank goodness I stopped reading Star Wars books before I got to that.

*ahem* Excuse me. Welcome.

just read your review of Messiah ... since you've had your head buried in all that StarWarz non-sense,
I'll cut you some slack - atleast you grasped the most basic concept, Paul's journey from hopeful hero
to miserable tyrant (which atleast one of the two pinheads currently producing McDune-Product never
did catch on to ....)

Messiah is also the hardest book to "get", certainly at the first go; read on about halfway thru God-emperor,
then go back and read it again ... then finish God-emperor; the importance of the Conspiracy and the nature
of the Duncans will make much more sense ...

nope, there's not alot of whizz-bang pew-pew-pew Space Action in Frank's Dune ... I let tehKJA's Clones
read that kinda shit so I don't have to (bless their hearts) ...

all said & done, tho, I think you got some potential here ....

Welcome. Your Water is Ours.

course now, you gonna hafta do some damn hard defending of stuff like this :

Frank Herbert may not be the most incredible word smith out there

Dune is a flawed novel, make no mistake

The lack of strong female characters does hinder the novel's enjoyment a bit, Jessica is a very complex character, but not a very strong one.

some strange omissions where detail is concerned


and of course:
Dune is the story of Paul Atreides, a noble born from Caladan. When his father receives a proposal from the Emperor to govern the planet of Arrakis, Paul is forced to leave home for the first time.

Welcome Home!

Achlan!

Frank Herbert may not be the most incredible word smith out there

With this I just meant to say that, while his writing is never bad, per se, he doesn't make the same kind of art with the written word as some other authors have. In this I wasn't making a comparision to Star Wars, his writing style is head and shoulders above that of any Star Wars writer I've yet to encounter. I was simply stating that he isn't "the best"...his passages are good for the most part, brillant in others, and somewhat boring in a handful of spots. The dialogue can also be hard to follow at times, when characters allude to things that you can only guess at, and when characters speak in basically a completely different language

Dune is a flawed novel, make no mistake

It is flawed for the other reasons that I mentioned, that doesn't make it bad, it just doesn't make it absolutely perfect. I know I rated a Star Wars book (Choices of One) higher than Dune, and I'll go ahead and defend that in this portion. I rate books more on entertainment value to me than I do anything else. If it has an interesting story, developed/consistent characters, adequate or better prose/descriptions, chances are I will probably like it.

The lack of strong female characters does hinder the novel's enjoyment a bit, Jessica is a very complex character, but not a very strong one.

I thought that the way Chani and Jessica stayed in the caves while Paul and the other fremen did all the work was somewhat demeaning to their characters. Chani accepts Paul taking someone else's hand in marriage, and still commits to him. Jessica seems to have a terrific fear of Paul at certain times in the novel. This does add to her complexity I suppose, and she is certainly an intelligent character, but I just wish they would've played larger roles in the final act. They both have some strong moments, but overall they just seem to be in Paul's shadow a bit.

some strange omissions where detail is concerned

This was mostly because I've yet to understand the reasoning for Paul's first son being in this story. Frank doesn't seem to give him much purpose in this novel, maybe he shows up later? It seems like his death doesn't change Paul in any real way. Also, and I suppose this is my "trashy star wars fan" coming out, but I thought the ending was way too sudden. I was hoping for a huge final battle between Fremen and Sardaukar
in the midst of a sandstorm. I suppose neither of these are "strange" in hindsight, because it's just Frank's style, through 2 books I've definately noticed that he omits things (the huge gaps between book 1 and 2, 2 and 3 being the easiest example) that don't fit or aren't important to him or his theme, and I definately respect that.

Dune is the story of Paul Atreides, a noble born from Caladan. When his father receives a proposal from the Emperor to govern the planet of Arrakis, Paul is forced to leave home for the first time.

I don't follow...This is just a very short summary of the initial premise of the book.

welcome²

Welcome!

Good Day and Welcome!

Shepherd492 wrote:The lack of strong female characters;
Chani accepts Paul taking someone else's hand in marriage, and still commits to him. Jessica seems to have a terrific fear of Paul at certain times in the novel.

That's an interesting take on these two. I thought Chani was stronger for having forgone what I veiwed as a petty interest in the 'title' of wife for the greater good. Didn't she once kill a fellow who wanted single combat with Paul? Jessica displayed similar emotional/physical strength by recognizing the nessecity of a political marrige for Duke Leto and in wanting to take on Jamis instead of Paul. After getting the best of Stilgar, is there any doubt she could've handled Jamis? Last thought, I read Jessicas fear of and for Paul as recognition of the magnitude of the powers/responsibilitys he faced. There's no other way FH could've gotten that point across and he did it by filtering his concept through the framework of a mothers love for her son.

D Pope wrote:Good Day and Welcome!

Shepherd492 wrote:The lack of strong female characters;
Chani accepts Paul taking someone else's hand in marriage, and still commits to him. Jessica seems to have a terrific fear of Paul at certain times in the novel.

That's an interesting take on these two. I thought Chani was stronger for having forgone what I veiwed as a petty interest in the 'title' of wife for the greater good. Didn't she once kill a fellow who wanted single combat with Paul? Jessica displayed similar emotional/physical strength by recognizing the nessecity of a political marrige for Duke Leto and in wanting to take on Jamis instead of Paul. After getting the best of Stilgar, is there any doubt she could've handled Jamis? Last thought, I read Jessicas fear of and for Paul as recognition of the magnitude of the powers/responsibilitys he faced. There's no other way FH could've gotten that point across and he did it by filtering his concept through the framework of a mothers love for her son.

That is a good point, I suppose I just read differently into the marriage system and other things. It isn't that I thought they were bad characters, or weak, it just seemed like they were overly subservient to Paul, though I would be willing to accept that viewpoint.

As you progress through the series there's a lot more strong female characters, they become focal points of several books in fact. Jessica's a force in her own way, she's just a wee bit flawed as well. Read Dune again and you'll see just how many hard decisions and risks she goes through, the very fact that she chose to have a son instead of a daughter is a big one as well, going against the BG was not something she'd have taken lightly.

EDIT: also, don't confuse non-warrior/non-frontlines females as non-strong ones - the battles inside a person's mind are the ones that really test their strength.

also, don't confuse non-warrior/non-frontlines females as non-strong ones - the battles inside a person's mind are the ones that really test their strength.

I definately understand where you guys are coming from, I suppose I just expecting something different out of the two of them in the book's final act, BECAUSE they are such adept warriors (as D pope pointed out). In retrospect though, I'm not entirely sure what they could've done, without something cheesy and unnessicary being written into the story. Thanks for the different perspective all!

Shepherd492 wrote:

also, don't confuse non-warrior/non-frontlines females as non-strong ones - the battles inside a person's mind are the ones that really test their strength.

I definately understand where you guys are coming from, I suppose I just expecting something different out of the two of them in the book's final act, BECAUSE they are such adept warriors (as D pope pointed out). In retrospect though, I'm not entirely sure what they could've done, without something cheesy and unnessicary being written into the story. Thanks for the different perspective all!

Never a problem. I know that prior to the first time I read Dune I was reading books mostly for entertainment value, and "wow" factor stuff - but the wow-factor stuff I was looking for was surface detail, and once I was reading Dune I found that there was another more powerful layer of wow that was almost entirely in the subtleties. It totally changed how I read books, Dune made me start reading for the strength of writing alone (he's got a really odd writing style, but it is actually fairly strong - Dune was only the second book he ever wrote, as you read further his writing improves even more) as well as for real character depth (and proper characterization techniques - "show don't tell") as well as depth of philosophy, social commentary, stuff like that.

God Emperor of Dune will probably mess with you a bit the first time you read it, some people love it right off the bat, some find it tough to get through - but if you read it, then read the last 2 books, then go through the series again that's when you'll start finding the really crazy blow-your-mind shit, and when you get to GEoD for the second time you'll almost certainly spend the entire re-read thinking "holy FUCK this is amazing!".

good replies, I'll accept (if not agree) with them ...

BTW, the last bit, about "Paul was born on Caladan", was a sort-of "inside joke" ...
(KEVIN J. ANDERSON, Masturbater of Universes, has revealed to us (mere mortals) the TRUTH of Paul's childhood ..)

rofl spammer?

Shepherd492 wrote:rofl spammer?

Yes. I guess he wrote several books full of spam and labeled them "Dune books". Was gonna read the second Dune 7 book, after I had read the Battle of Corrin, and then I took a look at the concordances here and laughed it off.

Check it out: http://jacurutu.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1538" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

lukecash12 wrote:

Shepherd492 wrote:rofl spammer?

Yes. I guess he wrote several books full of spam and labeled them "Dune books". Was gonna read the second Dune 7 book, after I had read the Battle of Corrin, and then I took a look at the concordances here and laughed it off.

Check it out: http://jacurutu.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1538" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lol I suppose that works too, but I wrote that because there was some random idiot above me with terrible English trying to sell stuff, deleted now though.