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    Re: Salutations

    Postby merkin muffley » 13 Aug 2011 10:28

    Nekhrun wrote:Also, Adam is not a matrilineal ancestor. You can't just throw a bunch of word salad out and toss in a few words and think we won't know what's going on.


    Ah yes, sophistry. It reminds me of my graduate thesis at the University of Columbia in the City of New York, "Half Ingest, Hole In Ernest" in which I explored sexuality in the works of Hemingway, including "The Garden of Eden," in which Eve has an Adam's Apple, and F. Scott Fitzgerald shows Hemingway his miniscule penis (in a scene from "A Moveable Feast" later reenacted by Kevin J Anderson and Brian Herbert in an attempt to be taken seriously as writers [see "dictahiking"]). I used many of the same rhetorical techniques which you have employed here in this forum, and then never got my degree, which is unnecessary for the Independent Academic. :teasing-smokingcrack:
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    Re: Salutations

    Postby lukecash12 » 13 Aug 2011 15:18

    I think that referring to Mitochondrial Eve as one person still means you missed the point. We do not all have two common ancestors. Do you think all dogs are related to the same two wolves?

    Also, Adam is not a matrilineal ancestor. You can't just throw a bunch of word salad out and toss in a few words and think we won't know what's going on.


    Mitochondrial Eve is one person. She is the most recent matrilineal ancestor of our entire species, and she mathematically has to exist. In a way, finding our Mitochondrial Eve is similar to finding the least common denominator, in that she isn't always the same person in the past and future tense, but she most definitely is the same person in the present tense.

    I wasn't aware that a simple discussion concerning a scientific theory would instigate "word salad". Now, if you and those few others here who blow up at the earliest stage of development in a conversation, would like to widen your attention span in order to have civilized discourse with another person, we may really enjoy ourselves. Otherwise, I've noticed a few others who do have the attention span necessary to perform reconnaissance, and continue to be productive in spite of being bothered/confused for just a moment.
    Last edited by lukecash12 on 13 Aug 2011 15:23, edited 2 times in total.
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    Re: Salutations

    Postby lukecash12 » 13 Aug 2011 15:21

    merkin muffley wrote:
    Nekhrun wrote:Also, Adam is not a matrilineal ancestor. You can't just throw a bunch of word salad out and toss in a few words and think we won't know what's going on.


    Ah yes, sophistry. It reminds me of my graduate thesis at the University of Columbia in the City of New York, "Half Ingest, Hole In Ernest" in which I explored sexuality in the works of Hemingway, including "The Garden of Eden," in which Eve has an Adam's Apple, and F. Scott Fitzgerald shows Hemingway his miniscule penis (in a scene from "A Moveable Feast" later reenacted by Kevin J Anderson and Brian Herbert in an attempt to be taken seriously as writers [see "dictahiking"]). I used many of the same rhetorical techniques which you have employed here in this forum, and then never got my degree, which is unnecessary for the Independent Academic. :teasing-smokingcrack:


    Hmmm... I guess crack would do the trick too. I'll have to go buy a few rocks, and try reading a book afterwards.
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    Re: Salutations

    Postby Nekhrun » 13 Aug 2011 15:41

    lukecash12 wrote:I wasn't aware that a simple discussion concerning a scientific theory would instigate "word salad".

    In a simple discussion no, but when you insist upon over-intellectualizing even the simplest of conversations (a hallmark of autism, but completely unnecessary in reality) then it makes you come across as a douche-bag (jury's still out on this one). I'm quite certain you've heard this feedback throughout your life, but you never know when it might finally stick and you give yourself the permission to tone it down a bit. Especially since you don't use many of the words correctly or in the proper context.
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    Re: Salutations

    Postby Serkanner » 13 Aug 2011 18:39

    lukecash12 wrote:
    I think that referring to Mitochondrial Eve as one person still means you missed the point. We do not all have two common ancestors. Do you think all dogs are related to the same two wolves?

    Also, Adam is not a matrilineal ancestor. You can't just throw a bunch of word salad out and toss in a few words and think we won't know what's going on.


    Mitochondrial Eve is one person. She is the most recent matrilineal ancestor of our entire species, and she mathematically has to exist. In a way, finding our Mitochondrial Eve is similar to finding the least common denominator, in that she isn't always the same person in the past and future tense, but she most definitely is the same person in the present tense.

    I wasn't aware that a simple discussion concerning a scientific theory would instigate "word salad". Now, if you and those few others here who blow up at the earliest stage of development in a conversation, would like to widen your attention span in order to have civilized discourse with another person, we may really enjoy ourselves. Otherwise, I've noticed a few others who do have the attention span necessary to perform reconnaissance, and continue to be productive in spite of being bothered/confused for just a moment.


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    Re: Salutations

    Postby lukecash12 » 14 Aug 2011 05:14

    Nekhrun wrote:
    lukecash12 wrote:I wasn't aware that a simple discussion concerning a scientific theory would instigate "word salad".

    In a simple discussion no, but when you insist upon over-intellectualizing even the simplest of conversations (a hallmark of autism, but completely unnecessary in reality) then it makes you come across as a douche-bag (jury's still out on this one). I'm quite certain you've heard this feedback throughout your life, but you never know when it might finally stick and you give yourself the permission to tone it down a bit. Especially since you don't use many of the words correctly or in the proper context.


    If it renders to you any measure of clarity, you would benefit from knowing that any and every idiosyncracy I use is used not so much for it's contextual, intoned, or group relative implication; It is used to render a specific image (in and of itself), and to lend itself to the cumulative case you normally read like any other paragraph.

    This convention of finding a specific word and giving your reader/listener a distinct value, and better yet one to be balanced by sequential nuance, is lost on me. You see, given my passionate study of etymology, and familiarity with so many groups and social conventions, it is impossible for me to instinctively benefit from education and select such a specific sequence in order to affect the audience, such that their reception of it would be limited to the large (but markedly fewer) strains of thought mutually accepted; I have a dune sea full of sand grains to sift through, so to speak. These words that have the potential for exquisitely specific values, are stripped of everything but mixed historical sentiment and their most basic or clinical image. Here's to hoping people don't develop a language like Galach in the near future :puke:

    Using the standard that my paragraphs don't represent a sequential thought pattern, but that they represent organisms or fully arranged caricatures, it should be demonstrable that I intoned hardly a significant emotion so far here. People are up in arms about the trained appraisals and mind games I enjoy, nothing more. Were they familiar enough with my topical method of communcation, they would easily internalize each paragraph as one or a few mutual and principle expressions. Those who have participated in formal debate with me have more often than not thoroughly enjoyed it, once they were familiar enough with my character and methodology to understand that I mean offence only when it is markedly explicit, and that they could take me seriously as an academic.

    If any of you would like to test my guarantee, that a normal intellectual can find great pleasure and candor in a formal debate with me, then name the subject and I will organize a numbered and premise built argument in a timely manner. Considering that some of you have taken interest in my choice to be a pastor, or that you may still be keen on the Mitochondrial Eve and Y Chromosomal Adam (as well as their relevance to biblical "history"), we can start a thread and work in that direction.
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    Re: Salutations

    Postby inhuien » 14 Aug 2011 07:11

    hihihi lukecash12 :)
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    Re: Salutations

    Postby reverendmotherQ. » 15 Aug 2011 08:49

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    So yeah, there definitely has to be something huge that blocked the HM's "other memory".

    .


    I was thinking that perhaps in some way this is what Leto wanted his golden path to produce - an event so cataclysmic and culturally rendering as the Scattering that it caused a group like HM to have limited ancestral memory so that they were not relying on the same old experiences for insight, that they were forced to create a future of their own before they could have access to any sort of advising past. Maybe I'm being Captain Obvious here, but I felt like it was worth mentioning.
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    Re: Salutations

    Postby Freakzilla » 15 Aug 2011 11:18

    I think Leto wanted all ancestral memories there but accessible only on a barely subconscious level. Note how Siona instingtively chose the right way out of the Sarreer during her test.
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    Re: Salutations

    Postby SadisticCynic » 15 Aug 2011 12:56

    Indeed, this was the subconscious prescience that made everyone invisible to conscious prescience. (Or is the jury still out on that idea?)
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    Re: Salutations

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 15 Aug 2011 13:41

    SadisticCynic wrote:Indeed, this was the subconscious prescience that made everyone invisible to conscious prescience. (Or is the jury still out on that idea?)


    Freak's talking about OM not prescience here, but no, I don't think the jury is really out on that one, it sorta is the only explanation for how the Siona gene that works, even though it doesn't quite make sense... there may be no real answer to how the Siona gene works, it just does.
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    Re: Salutations

    Postby SadisticCynic » 15 Aug 2011 13:43

    :doh: You're right. I should just stay quiet sometimes. :)
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    Re: Salutations

    Postby Freakzilla » 15 Aug 2011 16:40

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    SadisticCynic wrote:Indeed, this was the subconscious prescience that made everyone invisible to conscious prescience. (Or is the jury still out on that idea?)


    Freak's talking about OM not prescience here, but no, I don't think the jury is really out on that one, it sorta is the only explanation for how the Siona gene that works, even though it doesn't quite make sense... there may be no real answer to how the Siona gene works, it just does.


    I think the invisibility part is due to latent prescience which we see more evolved in Teg's doubled vision later.
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    Re: Salutations

    Postby SandRider » 15 Aug 2011 17:52

    I wasn't aware that a simple discussion concerning a scientific theory would instigate "word salad". Now, if you and those few others here who blow up at the earliest stage of development in a conversation, would like to widen your attention span in order to have civilized discourse with another person, we may really enjoy ourselves. Otherwise, I've noticed a few others who do have the attention span necessary to perform reconnaissance, and continue to be productive in spite of being bothered/confused for just a moment.





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    Re: Salutations

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 15 Aug 2011 18:11

    SandRider wrote:
    I wasn't aware that a simple discussion concerning a scientific theory would instigate "word salad". Now, if you and those few others here who blow up at the earliest stage of development in a conversation, would like to widen your attention span in order to have civilized discourse with another person, we may really enjoy ourselves. Otherwise, I've noticed a few others who do have the attention span necessary to perform reconnaissance, and continue to be productive in spite of being bothered/confused for just a moment.





    watch your mouth ...


    :lol:
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    Re: Salutations

    Postby Nekhrun » 15 Aug 2011 19:44

    Here's a fun article I came across today: http://www.npr.org/2011/08/09/138957812 ... am-and-eve

    That Zite app is awesome.
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    Re: Salutations

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 15 Aug 2011 19:54

    I love how some people refer to evolution as a controversy! I guess it still is for some people, but they kinda missed the boat on that one a loooong time ago! :lol:

    The best is when people don't even know what they're talking about. One guy said to me "so you really think we're descended from chimps?" - answer: "uh, no... us and chimps evolved from the same extinct ancestor... and that's only the last tiny step. I'm not saying we evolved from chimps you asshat (I may not have actually said "asshat"...), I'm saying we evolved from bloody microbes." (pretty sure I did actually say "bloody" though :wink: )
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    Re: Salutations

    Postby reverendmotherQ. » 15 Aug 2011 20:05

    Freakzilla wrote:I think Leto wanted all ancestral memories there but accessible only on a barely subconscious level. Note how Siona instingtively chose the right way out of the Sarreer during her test.

    Good point. It's been so long since I've read the later books and now I realize I need to go through them again if I want to make strong responses for discussion.
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    Re: Salutations

    Postby D Pope » 16 Aug 2011 11:35

    reverendmotherQ. wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:I think Leto wanted all ancestral memories there but accessible only on a barely subconscious level. Note how Siona instingtively chose the right way out of the Sarreer during her test.

    Good point. It's been so long since I've read the later books and now I realize I need to go through them again if I want to make strong responses for discussion.

    It's been a while for me as well but wasn't Letos Citadel more or less in the middle of the Sarreer? I know there's no specific location and the fremen saying states 'if lost, one direction is as good as another' but I should think that if her ancestral memories were accessable at all they would've been screaming for her to use her face flap.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: Salutations

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 16 Aug 2011 13:57

    D Pope wrote:
    reverendmotherQ. wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:I think Leto wanted all ancestral memories there but accessible only on a barely subconscious level. Note how Siona instingtively chose the right way out of the Sarreer during her test.

    Good point. It's been so long since I've read the later books and now I realize I need to go through them again if I want to make strong responses for discussion.

    It's been a while for me as well but wasn't Letos Citadel more or less in the middle of the Sarreer? I know there's no specific location and the fremen saying states 'if lost, one direction is as good as another' but I should think that if her ancestral memories were accessable at all they would've been screaming for her to use her face flap.[/quote]

    Touche! :lol:
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    Re: Salutations

    Postby Freakzilla » 17 Aug 2011 18:07

    The Little Citadel was in the Sareer.

    Leto PREPARED with patient care for his first private meeting with Siona since
    her childhood banishment to the Fish Speaker schools in the Festival City. He
    told Moneo that he would see her at the Little Citadel, a vantage tower he had
    built in the

    central Sareer. The site had been chosen to provide views of old and new and
    places between. There were no roads to the Little Citadel. Visitors arrived by
    'thopter. Leto went there as though by magic. '
    With his own hands, in the early days of his ascendancy, Leto has used an Ixian
    machine to dig a secret tunnel under the Sareer to his tower, doing all of the
    work himself. In those days, a few wild sandworms still roamed the desert. He
    had lined his tunnel with massive walls of fused silica and had imbedded
    countless bubbles of worm-repelling water in the outer layers. The tunnel
    anticipated his maximum growth and the requirements of a Royal Cart which, at
    that time, had been only a figment of his visions,


    ...and Leto had carried her for a long way on his back from the tower, and there was no water there anyway.
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    Re: Salutations

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 17 Aug 2011 18:16

    Right, this whole scene is coming back to me now, the lack of face flap use was concerning Leto that he hadn't acheived what he wanted yet, but the instinctual right path reassured him.
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