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    Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby SandRider » 13 Nov 2010 03:36

    meh.

    anybody who uses the word "rambling" to describe Leto's dialog ....

    well, I just assume right then and there that they didn't get it ...


    and, HORSESHIT, Keith better leave my fucking poison-dwarf alone ....

    I've mostly gotten over the anger at him, that kinda nonsense would just flare it all up again ...
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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby merkin muffley » 13 Nov 2010 06:44

    bgscholar wrote:The first Dune has always been my favorite, as I feel like the story is the most cohesive and universally-applicable in that book. You enjoy Leto II's ramblings and philosophical musings, though?


    Universally-applicable? Universally-applicable to what?

    I think someone could definitely make a convincing case for Dune being better than God Emperor. I, personally, prefer Dune to God Emperor, even though I think God Emperor is great. I thoroughly enjoy Leto's "ramblings and philosophical musings." And "cohesive and universally-applicable" are terms that make me go a big rubbery one, like KJA modifiers.
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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby Freakzilla » 13 Nov 2010 07:15

    I remember the first time I read GEoD, too. I didn't understand it, either.

    Leto Atreides II does NOT ramble. If you think he is rambling you are simply not paying attention.

    You would not have survived in the presence of The Worm Who Is God.


    What I recommend with GEoD is reading no more than a chapter at a time. Read the epigraphs before and after the chapter you're on. Don't go on until you understand what happened. If you're reading and Leto's "rambling" makes your mind wander, put the book down, go outside and get some fresh air, a drink of water, do some push-ups, jack off, whatever... then start that chapter over.

    This might help: God Emperor of Dune

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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby DuneFishUK » 13 Nov 2010 09:14

    I'll agree that Dune is more cohesive - it is probably the most perfect of the saga.

    But I'm re-listening to GEOD atm and it is brilliant - and Leto does not ramble.

    Freakzilla wrote:What I recommend with GEoD is reading no more than a chapter at a time. Read the epigraphs before and after the chapter you're on. Don't go on until you understand what happened.

    That;s a good idea actually - A few times I've been zoning out a bit trying to figure out the previous chapter, then having to go back and start the current one again.
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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby merkin muffley » 13 Nov 2010 11:56

    Yeah, I can see what you mean by cohesive. I've been in a weird mood the last couple of days. I'm going to Appalachia to shoot some guns. Be back Monday.


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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby Eyes High » 13 Nov 2010 15:55

    Freakzilla wrote:...

    Leto Atreides II does NOT ramble. ...

    ...


    I think I'll have to disagree with you on this. I believe he does ramble BUT -- it's an international rambling. He always has a point to make but the listeners might not always 'get' the point.

    I do agree that it is best to read only one or two chapters at a time though.
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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby Shaitan » 13 Nov 2010 16:35

    bgscholar wrote:It's interesting that you like God Emperor so much. The first Dune has always been my favorite, as I feel like the story is the most cohesive and universally-applicable in that book. You enjoy Leto II's ramblings and philosophical musings, though?


    They're certainly interesting....seeing what FH would put in the mouth of the most utterly-aware being in the history of humanity, almost 20,000 years into our future....but that's not the big deal, to me.

    It's the setting up of what was to be the conclusion, Dune 7. The nature of what the Golden Path was and what it was to lead to. Leto's musings are definitely fascinating but they're far from the whole enchilada IMHO.

    I also found it interesting how tempted Leto was by the perfect love, trapped as he was in that worm-body....or was it really temptation at all? Perhaps on a certain level, Leto knew that Hwi was the gateway to his end, to the beginning of the next step on the Path....

    In any case, the original is a great book, certainly more interesting on a purely physical-action level. But I still find GEoD to be the most enjoyable book all-around. I guess my tolerance for "dry, dialogue-heavy writing" ala Asimov was already quite high when I started reading GeOD, so I may have a different perspective on all that than other readers.
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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby Shaitan » 13 Nov 2010 16:36

    Great discussion of Leto's monologues has ensued. I dig it. This is why I love Jacurutu :-)
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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby SandChigger » 13 Nov 2010 23:23

    (N.B. Almost 25,000 years in the future: 11,000+ years to the Butlerian Jihad; 10,000+ years to Dune; 3,500 years to end of GEoD. :) )
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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby Shaitan » 14 Nov 2010 00:17

    SandChigger wrote:(N.B. Almost 25,000 years in the future: 11,000+ years to the Butlerian Jihad; 10,000+ years to Dune; 3,500 years to end of GEoD. :) )


    Thanks for the correction, 'chig :-)
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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby inhuien » 14 Nov 2010 08:08

    Where did 11,000+ years to the BJ come from, is that categorically stated in the novels. Am I forgetting something from the last 2 books?

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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 Nov 2010 08:11

    inhuien wrote:Where did 11,000+ years to the BJ come from, is that categorically stated in the novels. Am I forgetting something from the last 2 books?


    Mankind's movement through deep space placed a unique stamp on religion
    during the one hundred and ten centuries that preceded the Butlerian Jihad.

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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby inhuien » 14 Nov 2010 08:20

    So that's 11,000 of interstellar exploration, do we have a date for or historical reference of when that started?
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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby Freakzilla » 14 Nov 2010 10:42

    inhuien wrote:So that's 11,000 of interstellar exploration, do we have a date for or historical reference of when that started?


    No, I guess it's a matter of when the beginning of mankind's movement through deep space is. We haven't begun to move through "deep space" yet but the first man in space was 1961. While FH was writing Dune.
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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby grandmastercrafter » 25 Jan 2011 10:51

    Freakzilla wrote:
    inhuien wrote:So that's 11,000 of interstellar exploration, do we have a date for or historical reference of when that started?


    No, I guess it's a matter of when the beginning of mankind's movement through deep space is. We haven't begun to move through "deep space" yet but the first man in space was 1961. While FH was writing Dune.

    I assume that we can assume that FH had intended that our present day is roughly the 'start'... plus or minus a century or two... :think:
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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby Freakzilla » 25 Jan 2011 10:59

    grandmastercrafter wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    inhuien wrote:So that's 11,000 of interstellar exploration, do we have a date for or historical reference of when that started?


    No, I guess it's a matter of when the beginning of mankind's movement through deep space is. We haven't begun to move through "deep space" yet but the first man in space was 1961. While FH was writing Dune.

    I assume that we can assume that FH had intended that our present day is roughly the 'start'... plus or minus a century or two... :think:


    I beleive Voyager is either in or about to pass into interstellar space. Do probes count?
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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby grandmastercrafter » 25 Jan 2011 11:03

    Freakzilla wrote:
    grandmastercrafter wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    inhuien wrote:So that's 11,000 of interstellar exploration, do we have a date for or historical reference of when that started?


    No, I guess it's a matter of when the beginning of mankind's movement through deep space is. We haven't begun to move through "deep space" yet but the first man in space was 1961. While FH was writing Dune.

    I assume that we can assume that FH had intended that our present day is roughly the 'start'... plus or minus a century or two... :think:


    I beleive Voyager is either in or about to pass into interstellar space. Do probes count?

    That's what she asked... :dance:

    I don't know if FH counted them, but I do...
    Scientists announced last month that Voyager 1 had outrun the solar wind, the first man-made object to reach the doorstep to interstellar space.

    http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/S ... 1_4233009/
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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby SandChigger » 25 Jan 2011 11:14

    Yeah, but it says mankind's movement through deep space, so by my way of thinking even the Voyagers don't qualify since they carry no human passengers.

    No human has been further from Earth than the 0.0025 AU or so to the Moon. (That's only one fourth of one one-hundredth of the distance to the Sun!) That is not "movement through deep space" by any interpretation, so it's still WAY too early to start the ole countdown clock. ;)
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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby grandmastercrafter » 25 Jan 2011 11:24

    SandChigger wrote:Yeah, but it says mankind's movement through deep space, so by my way of thinking even the Voyagers don't qualify since they carry no human passengers.

    No human has been further from Earth than the 0.0025 AU or so to the Moon. (That's only one fourth of one one-hundredth of the distance to the Sun!) That is not "movement through deep space" by any interpretation, so it's still WAY too early to start the ole countdown clock. ;)

    lol - good point, but the phrase mankind's movement through deep space can be interpreted to mean our collective efforts (mankinds, that is) rather than individuals/groups of humans...

    ...thinking it over though, you're probably right that FH was referring to our physical bodies moving through deep space... but I also think that he probably figured we'd already have people out there headed for deep space by now, you know? ...the sense back then was quite optimistic RE our future in space... things have slowed down considerably in that respect nowadays, but I'd say a bunch of nations are ready to bounce within the next century - to the moon and beyond!!! :angelic-flying:
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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby Apjak » 25 Jan 2011 11:38

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    The Voyager Plaque and................. Pioneer Plaque respectively

    This is what we sent out to extra terrestrial life to say "Hi There". I wonder what we'd send out now-a-days. Think we'd send some DNA, or a representation thereof?

    We also sent out that "Sounds of Earth" 12'' LP
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    I wonder if today we'd send out a gold-anodized aluminum iPod.
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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby grandmastercrafter » 25 Jan 2011 11:43

    well, keeping security in mind, I don't think we should send out DNA, or anything that could be used against us... but I'm also curious to see what we'd send out today too... especially considering the space programs of other nations, you know? what would they think to send, if they had the control? :think:
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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby Freakzilla » 25 Jan 2011 11:47

    Yeah, I think sending out DNA could be bad. But maybe that's just paranoia.
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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby SandChigger » 25 Jan 2011 12:46

    Um, isn't it supposed to be something like 80,000 years before the things even come close to another star system?

    I don't think we're in any danger.

    Even the common idea about our radio and television signals spreading outward at the speed of light and someone out there picking them up and learning about us is now thought to be highly unlikely, with the signals degrading to the point of being indistinguishable from the background noise at less than one light year. Maybe some of our strongest radar installations are detectable at greater distances, but not much further.
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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby lotek » 25 Jan 2011 12:59

    Freakzilla wrote:Yeah, I think sending out DNA could be bad. But maybe that's just paranoia.


    Go tell that to Fox Mulder !
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    Re: Hello there, fellow Orthodox-ians!

    Postby grandmastercrafter » 25 Jan 2011 13:05

    SandChigger wrote:Um, isn't it supposed to be something like 80,000 years before the things even come close to another star system?

    I don't think we're in any danger.

    Even the common idea about our radio and television signals speeding outward at the speed of light and someone out there picking them up and learning about us is now thought to be highly unlikely, with the signals degrading to the point of being indistinguishable from the background noise at less than one light year. Maybe some of our strongest radar installations are detectable at greater distances, but not much further.

    Sometime around 2025, the two craft will fall silent. In 40,000 years Voyager 1 will sail as Earth's ambassador among the stars of the constellation Camelopardalis – the Giraffe — in the northern sky. Voyager 2 is headed for Sirius, the brightest star in the sky. It should arrive in 296,000 years.

    ...so yea, you're right that it'll be millennia before they arrive anywhere of note, in our opinion (how would we know that there are no other potentially dangerous phenomena, up to and including lifeforms and/or probes from other civilizations, in the interstellar voids?)... and even at light-speed, and taking into account signal degradation, there is always a danger.

    Not danger to us, at present, as far as I can see, but...

    In the first case, just because it will be hundreds of thousands of years, we should not assume that humanity will not exist, or that life here on earth in other forms will not exist - we shouldn't attract the attention of others to our neighborhood just as a matter of course. In the second case, even though it's "now thought to be highly unlikely", we don't actually know how likely anything would be with other lifeforms... I would err on the side of caution again, regardless. As well, just because a signal has degraded doesn't mean that information about the originating source can't be deduced... tech being what it is, change will be the the norm, and generally it will be improvement... what we cannot conceive of NOW may be commonplace tomorrow, you know?

    Don't think anyone really cares, though, about thinking that far in advance. I debated stuff like this over at Ars Technica - they have a whole slew of knowledgeable individuals who'll shoot the shit on this topic, and other related ones...
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