Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Greetings all - just want to say hi, and...

...that I've tried. I really have. I can't do it anymore. (softly weeping) After reading again and again the progressive dumbing-down of this exquisite creation, I seek refuge from the absolute ridiculousness that seems to spout nowadays (seemingly effortlessly) when I try to talk about Dune to the latest crop of readers. Standards have fallen. As well - as a family man I look on in horror at the tragedy that has befallen the legacy of a great mind at the hands of his son and some dude, seemingly for profit. That kind of behavior makes me queasy.

Because of this I had tried in years past to bring around a few younger individuals - idealistic and impassioned 20-something friends of mine who loved philosophy and historically significant writers and thinkers - by cooperative readings of the original works aloud, at my crib or in parks or coffee shops etc... imploring them to read the originals FIRST with me, before reading anything from the new; we have gone through the whole original series in a series of critical breakdowns, once or twice a week, sometimes covering a page, sometimes getting through entire chapters, practicing our reading aloud and sinking into the art as the words washed over us. Lots of impassioned arguments, beverages flowing, brows all a-sweat... near Heretics we'd realized our disagreements on a whole slew of topics, leading to drop-down arguments and vile imprecations bandied about indiscriminately, and by the end of Chapterhouse we'd be drained and laughing softly at just exactly how geeky we really were, but quivering with anticipation at the possibilities... this required tons of time, but has worked for me (and helped make some solid friends over the years) - and has been rip-roaring fun to boot - great way to spend portions of weekends.

Then I'd ask them to go read the new stuff (from a library), and see what they think. They invariably reacted with varying degrees of horror at the reinterpretations and butchery... some were of the opinion that we should just ignore the tripe, and some were more incensed than that (I'm really only talking about 6 people here, 5 guys and a girl - I wish I'd reached more... aimed for about 20 friends over the years and got about 25% success... the others kinda curse my name ). And I felt I had done some little good. And it was good.

EXCEPT that nowadays I just don't have the time for that kind of thing anymore, after getting married, having kids and gaining tons of additional responsibilities... as a result I've been out of practice with Voice, I've been reduced to incoherence by some of the things new 'Dune-fans' have said to me, correcting me with new canon crap, and have even been told that I cannot use Frank Herbert's writing as the penultimate and/or only standard for the Dune universe. I just can't believe it. Makes me throw up in my mouth. Just thinking about it... see - there. It just happened again. bleh.


I've joined Jacurutu to just hang out with like-minded people. A bastion of sanity. Thank you all for being so solid over the years.

...and needless to say, I like to post

Welcome, you've certainly found the right place! Have you seen the official forum (sad place), or did you find us some other way?

oh - I've found the 'official' forum, and yes, sadness found me there. I initially contemplated joining over there to talk about Dune with other like-minded folks, but read and read and read and realized that that was just not the place for me. I'd get kicked out too quickly, and I try not to do things that result in my inevitable expulsion, unless the entertainment factor exceeds 11. The potential is there, for that level of entertainment, on a personal level, but I just got too mad too much, and I've got to watch my blood pressure...

- oh, and I found this sweet spot years ago through general browsing... I just never thought I'd need to join. Now the need is great. It's going to get worse before it gets better... unfortunately.

Thanks for the welcome!

grandmastercrafter wrote:EXCEPT that nowadays I just don't have the time for that kind of thing anymore, after getting married, having kids and gaining tons of additional responsibilities... as a result I've been out of practice with Voice, I've been reduced to incoherence by some of the things new 'Dune-fans' have said to me, correcting me with new canon crap, and have even been told that I cannot use Frank Herbert's writing as the penultimate and/or only standard for the Dune universe. I just can't believe it.

HERESY!!!!!!!
I'd be quite interested to know where you were told this...

Only Frank Herbert's Dune is canon

And the Jihad is there to remind preeqs that all their cheap talk and wishful thinking will never ever change the fact than KJABH are morons doubled with idiots that have no understanding whatsoever of Dune... (where are my pills now?)

So

grandmastercrafter wrote:I've joined Jacurutu to just hang out with like-minded people. A bastion of sanity. Thank you all for being so solid over the years.

yup some guys here have been quite busy indeed!

Welcome twice welcome to Sitech Jacurutu, home of The Cast Out!(feeling lyrical today!)

hehehe - thanks lotek - heard that specifically from three 24-year old students at U of Maryland. I had finished jamming with them, and one of them saw I had a copy of Heretics with me and wanted to talk about Dune... all three of them were reading one of the new books - I think House Atreides - and I all unknowingly said that it was @#$%^&* piece of #$@%. Things proceeded to get ugly from there. Then my wife showed up and whisked me away before I could attempt to make them cry. Sobering experience. I got a few good points in, but none of them want to jam with me anymore - and they were very good musicians. Too bad they had weak brains. Just too bad. I think I mentioned their weak brains too - probably not a good idea, but I was so pissed. I've gotten more control over myself since then, but geez.

well i've never met a preeq in person, that must have been a gruesome experience!

Welcome our weary brother of the sand

Welcome Home!

lotek wrote:well i've never met a preeq in person, that must have been a gruesome experience!

Just for the experience, you should find a way to face-to-face a few of them. It's bad, but very educational. I've done better since that encounter. I've tried to actively ask people about Dune, and while most don't know much about it, some have read the new books, and fewer have read the originals. Once I get a positive response to 'Dune, anyone?' generally, I try to spark up conversation, if there's time... usually there's at least a few minutes there to establish preferences on both sides, and possibly even a biting comment, if called for...

I find they don't get as pissed as I do, though. Personally I think it's cause they don't care about the 'work of art' aspect of Dune, but rather the 'a really good SF story' aspect only, pulp-wise... little or no appreciation for the finer, more intellectual subjects, and no patience to try to get it without some kind of external motivating force (logic, facts, persuasive words, kind demeanor, cattle prod, etc...). Someone more appreciative of the pricelessness of Dune should have been recruited to write in the Dune universe, if anyone needed to at all...

...and thanks for the welcome Eyes and Serk - appreciate it

well I am not sure we have that many preeqs in France, but to be honest I've nver checked how well(or not) the mcdunes sold...
In the UK same thing, but we have probably some people here who might know that sort of thing(when I say probably I mean it is a sure fact, often I must speak other than I think lol)

It is also one of the reasons I like it here, apart from the fact they let me do my silly jokes and approximative photoshops, is that it really feels good to be able to discuss for days on the use and origins of just a single word without passing for a) a nut b) a geek c) both...
And come up with something that makes sense
(well it will most likely have a coating of digress but there you go lol)

grandmastercrafter wrote:I initially contemplated joining over there to talk about Dune with other like-minded folks, but read and read and read and realized that that was just not the place for me.

Welcome.

Like lotek, I've never met a preeq in person, and I know high schoolers who tried to read that shit.

There was a preeq who claimed to be from MN from DN, but he disappeared. He probably swallowed a can of paint or something.

Welcome home!

I try not to be too hard on people who read House Atreides - I mean it was the first book the hacks wrote together and it is based on Frank Herbert's notes. Once they get sorted and take on the criticisms they're bound to improve...



...

Maybe a "Meet the Preeq" Event is in order? Does anyone actually ever do that kind of thing? I think it would truly be a blast. Lots of baklava and soda pop, to really get the energy going, you know?

oh - and thanks for the welcome Nekhrun, DuneFishUK! I feel really good to be here. It's like a weight off my shoulders. The miasma of the new stuff had really dampened me, and these initial welcoming exchanges are really therapeutic...

Achlan wasachlan!

I try not to do things that result in my inevitable expulsion, unless the entertainment factor exceeds 11

BROTHER! Mom & Dad've been wondering where you got to!

I've been lost, unfortunately, but now I'm found...

Thanks Sandchigger

Welcome, grab a seat, get us some beers, and grab you some good 'ol bbq.


Rob

Welcome!

Have you read "Dune 7?" If you haven't, just read the summaries. Those were the books that broke my back and actually made me angry at the McDune "authors."

Welcome, and keep on educating those preeqs! It's a dirty job but someone has to do it.

Welcome!

grandmastercrafter wrote:friends of mine who loved philosophy and historically significant writers and thinkers - by cooperative readings of the original works aloud, at my crib or in parks or coffee shops etc... imploring them to read the originals FIRST with me, before reading anything from the new; we have gone through the whole original series in a series of critical breakdowns, once or twice a week, sometimes covering a page, sometimes getting through entire chapters, practicing our reading aloud and sinking into the art as the words washed over us.

You'll like it here a lot. Check out the reading groups.

And life is too short for people who really like those shit prequels, except to fart in their general direction.

Tleszer wrote:Those were the books that broke my back and actually made m[y butt turn green!]

This is called creative editing.

SandChigger wrote:

Tleszer wrote:Those were the books that broke my back and actually made m[y butt turn green!]

This is called creative editing.

Not too far from what I had been thinking of posting...

You could probably sing it to the tune of "Gonna turn my brown eyes blue".

merkin muffley wrote:Welcome!

grandmastercrafter wrote:friends of mine who loved philosophy and historically significant writers and thinkers - by cooperative readings of the original works aloud, at my crib or in parks or coffee shops etc... imploring them to read the originals FIRST with me, before reading anything from the new; we have gone through the whole original series in a series of critical breakdowns, once or twice a week, sometimes covering a page, sometimes getting through entire chapters, practicing our reading aloud and sinking into the art as the words washed over us.

You'll like it here a lot. Check out the reading groups.

And life is too short for people who really like those shit prequels, except to fart in their general direction.

thanks for the welcome merkin!

I know what you mean about life being short and all, but since you can only go so far online, and since the basic disconnect seems to be in the appreciation levels and degree of respect for the originals (that seem self-evident to us), I feel there're potential solutions... educating the less fortunate on how and why something constitutes art, or the reasons for one work to be considered a masterpiece and not another - it's do-able, with minimal flatulence, or cow-tossing.

Maybe I'm an optimist, but in many other realms I've had varying degrees of success in showing why one thing is what it is - by the face-to-face showing of it... the main component being: to be present in the flesh, so the raw sincerity is readily apparent; using bodily cues and facial leads, tone of voice, up to and including props, changes to the setting, ambient noise and the like to bolster your points, etc... this can be extremely effective if maintained absolutely (which is the hard part - maintaining such an effort like that consistently).

I don't recommend this for everyone, but for those of us who have met preeqs, and can talk to some of them directly, and feel they have the gift to effectively teach those less fortunate, we should at least target an individual or two for long-term education (ex: hang out once a week, or month, and get dinner, talking about (original) Dune the whole time - one time you pay, so they feel obliged to listen respectfully, at least, and one time they pay, so you have to put up with nonsense for equal amounts of time - sacrifice for the cause!)... and at the end of the process you should have made a good (or at least 'ok') friend who understands why the Mona Lisa should never have her hairline restored, or lipstick added, nor blush, nor eyeliner, no matter how hot she might be afterwards...

...the principles on how to determine what is a masterpiece of literature are pretty sound... at the very least you should get someone who knows why a sequel to a work like "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" should not include over-par prose, poorly-written and including difficult to reconcile 'facts' previously unknown to the reader, like: Huck's long-lost hermaphrodite twin who had been lost in an expedition to the arctic, but thawed out successfully in the year 2030, and given practical bionics and a cerebral implant that allows limited time travel to the age of Huck Finn again, to replay everything from the muzzle of an assault rifle - while cutting a romantic and psycho-sexual swath through men and women alike... written by a (great? great great?) grandson of Samuel Clemens and some pulp-fiction writer, for profit. "The Adventures of Jackleberry Finn: The Reckoning" - the greater the education, the more likely that it would be obvious that something like that should not be treated as 'canon' but rather as an alternate history, or something of the sort. Unless it turns out to be an absolute classic in it's own right... but I tend towards doubt on that, and digress.

Bottom line is that the educated already know. Reading and comparing the reasons Keith and Brian have given for changing Dune, vs the ideals Jacurutu espouses, and the presentation of the ideas from a logical standpoint on both sides, OH'ers win hands down. But legally K&B are on solid ground, so for the next century or so (hope not that long! ) we'll have to put up with their nonsense as the majority opinion, if they don't change on their own, until the sands of time bury the dross... imho. I can't see things changing any faster than that, in a practical sense. We can only put up the good fight, and persevere in the face of adversity.

thanks for the welcome Rob, Tleszer! And yea - Grunters and Sadworms, eh? I had actually bought those two with hard-earned money. When I realized how exceedingly horrifying they were turning out I read each page (to see if I could retain my IQ, even in the face of immense stupidity) and then tore it out and gave each page to my father-in-law to help start the fires in the fireplace. I burned the covers outside. Even knowing I was doing something for the greater good, it still tore me up inside to have to destroy literature of any kind.

KJA/BH - See what you made me do!!!!! you bastards.

grandmastercrafter wrote:Bottom line is that the educated already know. Reading and comparing the reasons Keith and Brian have given for changing Dune, vs the ideals Jacurutu espouses, and the presentation of the ideas from a logical standpoint on both sides, OH'ers win hands down. But legally K&B are on solid ground, so for the next century or so (hopefully sooner! ) we'll have to put up with their nonsense as the majority opinion, if they don't change on their own, until the sands of time bury the dross... imho. I can't see things changing any faster than that, in a practical sense. We can only put up the good fight, and persevere in the face of adversity.

I don't think the preeqs are a majority, it seems sales are dwindling for the mcdunes, they caught some of us unaware like me with the House series, but now the preeqs are more and more plain idiots that could not understand Dune however much they tried...
Which is the reason why the trupreeq gets so angry when the utter idiocy of its heroes is methodically pointed out, because it just highlights its own inadequacies and failure to comprehend.

We're talking proper idiots, and we've had a few examples here(and more generally in life, the idiots are the ones to win over if you want power and/or fame, they are numerous and easy to please).

Someone who can be easily be convinced the mcdunes are shit is not a preeq, just someone who would have come to the realization sooner or later.
I mean these books are shit and only an idiot or the idiot who wrote it wouldn't admit it.

lotek wrote:

grandmastercrafter wrote:Bottom line is that the educated already know. Reading and comparing the reasons Keith and Brian have given for changing Dune, vs the ideals Jacurutu espouses, and the presentation of the ideas from a logical standpoint on both sides, OH'ers win hands down. But legally K&B are on solid ground, so for the next century or so (hopefully sooner! ) we'll have to put up with their nonsense as the majority opinion, if they don't change on their own, until the sands of time bury the dross... imho. I can't see things changing any faster than that, in a practical sense. We can only put up the good fight, and persevere in the face of adversity.

...I mean these books are shit and only an idiot or the idiot who wrote it wouldn't admit it.

God bless you in your quest to help those with terrible taste in literature, but I don't think I've ever met someone (outside one of these forums) who has tried to defend the new Dune books. I still don't feel that the support for KJA's work has any passion behind it. Who can get excited about that shit? If I actually met somebody who wanted to argue that the prequels were better, it might be fun to argue with them because it would be like shooting fish in a barrel. This sounds like I'm being critical of you, but I'm really not - you're a bigger and better person than I am. Godspeed. I, personally, can't think of any circumstances under which I would seek out a KJA fan to reform them, unless she was the runner=up at the fireman's carnival the day after the pageant, at a very low ebb and in a teachable moment, and I would teach her to speak properly and stop reading Paul of Dune, and to pull up her pants in public.

The rain in Spain...