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    Out in Open Sand

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    Out in Open Sand

    Postby Renegade Rev Mother » 19 Jun 2010 01:55

    "Column of smoke by day. Pillar of fire by night."

    Hearty thanks to Freak, the Sand Driver of the Sacred Winnebago of the Dunes, and the Bane of BH/KJA Heretics Everywhere, Chig, for helping me aboard.

    First, a confession: The Original Characters of the first three Dune Novels so fascinated me that, even if Frank Herbert felt he had said (written) all he had to "say" about them, still, I wanted more. I bought the (admittedly, non-canon) Dune Encyclopedia, but even that did not satisfy.

    And so, beguiled by ghafla I succumbed to... McDune.

    I spent most of Paul of Dune with my mouth hanging open - by turns in horror, revulsion and bafflement. The eternally-loyal and loving Leto I so easily asking his beloved Bene Gesserit concubine to accomodate another woman, indeed, a wife? The smarmy-to-the-point-of-icky "courtship" of Leto I and Ilesa of Ecaz? (Wasn't there some positively romance movie stock scene of a moonlit ride in a gondola or some such Unsinn? Really, I was so aghast as not to remember clearly.) And then... taking a scene directly out of the American prime-time series Dynasty, there is the Massacre at the Royal Wedding! All that finery! All that carnage, blood everywhere! (It was like the invasion of two preadolescent male minds on a romance novel template: Beavis and Butthead, "let's kill the bride, huh huh, huh huh" *cue heavy metal oeuvre*)

    You get the picture.

    But alas, still hungry for “more” – despite Paul of Dune being a heaping pile of shite, yes, I committed the further transgression of Winds of Dune, which, while duly bad, had the slight redeeming feature of not being quite as bad as Paul of Dune, which is really just damning with the faintest wisplets of praise.

    So, that’s my story, having fully confessed my sins, and “followed” Chig’s writings to Freak and Omph, and the oasis of Jacarutu sietch. :pray:

    ~ RRM
    "Our test is crisis and observation."
    "U tishuf hatt al-hudud / alman albaid. / Ayway libarr / adam almalum / tishuf liani..."
    "Bless the Maker and His water. Bless His coming and His going. May His passing cleanse the world, may He keep the world for His people. Bi-la kaifa!"
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    Re: Out in Open Sand

    Postby SandChigger » 19 Jun 2010 02:07

    :lol:

    Ahem... Achlan wasachlan biki fi sietchna!

    OK, formalities out of the way, welcome again! :D


    (Watch out for SandRider, I think his shots expired last month. If he mentions something about cleaning up the living area, just smack him. [But not too hard, he likes that.] And under no conditions should you stare for more than a few seconds at the green tushie!)
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    Re: Out in Open Sand

    Postby Eyes High » 19 Jun 2010 02:10

    Welcome on board ye lost sister of the sand. You will find solace here. You will find knowledge here. Heck, you'll even find a few nut cases here. Well nut-cases wannabes at least. :mrgreen:

    Either way. Welcome on board and enjoy the ride. Keep hands and feet in at all times, some of the members bite occasionally.
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    Re: Out in Open Sand

    Postby Hunchback Jack » 19 Jun 2010 02:25

    You are forgiven, my child. Go, and sin no more.

    Or stay, and chat a while. :)

    HBJ
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    Re: Out in Open Sand

    Postby Eyes High » 19 Jun 2010 02:27

    I vote for stay and chat.
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    Re: Out in Open Sand

    Postby Renegade Rev Mother » 19 Jun 2010 02:45

    I thank all of you for your welcomes, and crave indulgence from Chig, as my isolation from others who appreciate the True Canon has been so entrenched that my Fremen/Chaboksa is sadly almost non-existent. (Better said, I can make my way in several Old Terran languages. :wink: )

    I got the hint of SandRider, for isn't it he who was posting "Francisca Annis's panties. Now"? Distinct call of the wild, there. Any sister of the sand would be wise to keep her eyes open even in sietch with that one. :shock:

    I have made my hajj and wanderings, and saw things even scarier than the mouth of a raging Worm in the ravings of the McDune Nuggets, and from the other side, those ready to erect an altar to FH, whom, while enormously talented, I don't think would have been comfortable being worshipped as an actual deity (though his son might really get his groove on with that idea.)

    Give it to me straight: How badly do you think the outrages :puke: the McDune Nuggets Mini-Pack are entirely capable of committing upon my estranged Sisterhood will be? I hath heard of the "School" series, and... well... it does inspire... awe, but not wonder. I'm still trying to recover from the ideas that Irulan "created" the canon Dune and that Paul/Muad'Dib, of whom the first words are spoken/written is how important to locate him in his correct time and place: birthplace
    Caladan, but Dune forever his "place," was actually born on... Kaitain. :hand:

    JMHO: Kyle MacClahan was, indeed, in dire need of a haircut in Lynch's "Dune," but good Gods, he was a damned sight easier to take than Alec Newman's perpetually whiny and petulant Paul Atreides/moody, pissy Muad'Dib in the SciFi mini-series.

    ~ RRM
    "Our test is crisis and observation."
    "U tishuf hatt al-hudud / alman albaid. / Ayway libarr / adam almalum / tishuf liani..."
    "Bless the Maker and His water. Bless His coming and His going. May His passing cleanse the world, may He keep the world for His people. Bi-la kaifa!"
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    Re: Out in Open Sand

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 19 Jun 2010 03:14

    Welcome.
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    Re: Out in Open Sand

    Postby SandChigger » 19 Jun 2010 04:27

    Sounds like it's about time for a "Fremen for Dunies" thread, huh? :P


    What all of the McDune c[r]a[p]non have you read besides Paul and Winds again? The "House" trilogy? The "Legends"? (Which latter will form the basis of the upcoming "Great Stools", as inhuien has rechristened them.) The "Dune 7" duology (Grunters & Sadworms)? There's just so much BAD to keep track of! :? ;)


    (Edit: I guess "Dunies" only needs one 'n', huh? :P )
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    Re: Out in Open Sand

    Postby Serkanner » 19 Jun 2010 04:35

    Welcome Home!
    "... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

    “There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

    Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
    and wrote a Dune Novel."
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    Re: Out in Open Sand

    Postby merkin muffley » 19 Jun 2010 07:49

    Oh man, there are so many things to complain about in Paul of Dune that I forget they gave Leto I a wife before Jessica. WHAT!? And worst of all, it's in the form of a maudlin romance novel. Is there anything more important to the relationship between Leto and Jessica than the fact that LETO DIDN"T HAVE A WIFE!!!

    ImageImage[

    I genuinely consider Paul of Dune to be one of the worst books I've ever read. I threw it against the wall. It just dawned on me that there's no other book that I've actually thrown against a wall. I would've thrown it into the fireplace if I had one. I'm going camping soon, I might buy a copy just to throw it in the fire.

    WELCOME
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    Re: Out in Open Sand

    Postby inhuien » 19 Jun 2010 08:02

    They gave Leto a wife, that was nice of them :killmenow:.

    hihihi and welcome Renegade Rev Mother :D
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    Re: Out in Open Sand

    Postby DuneFishUK » 19 Jun 2010 08:36

    Welcome :)
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    Re: Out in Open Sand

    Postby lotek » 19 Jun 2010 08:52

    SandChigger wrote:(Edit: I guess "Dunies" only needs one 'n', huh? :P )


    I dunno!

    And welcome to the sietch Rev Mother

    I read the house trilogies, the machine crusade, hunters and sandworms, so I can relate to your pain...

    I wish I had known Jacurutu before, I thought I was the only one and so I carried on reading those steaming piles of dung thinking like a preeq actually(they have the notes, he's Frank's son...)

    But I knew something was amiss when I never tried to reread them... Frank's Dune followed me everywhere and I used to open the books at random, always finding something new!
    That never happened and never will with the no(o)dune as long as that shit spewing hole that is the hack's mouth doesn't stop pouring its drivel into its dictjabba...
    Spice is the worm's gonads.
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    Re: Out in Open Sand

    Postby Omphalos » 19 Jun 2010 14:12

    SandChigger wrote:(Edit: I guess "Dunies" only needs one 'n', huh? :P )


    The Dominick Dunne fan-site has a different URL. :wink:

    Welcome, RRM! You are not by chance the RM from DN? The one who had the big question-mark as an avatar?
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    Re: Out in Open Sand

    Postby Mandy » 19 Jun 2010 15:27

    merkin muffley wrote:Oh man, there are so many things to complain about in Paul of Dune that I forget they gave Leto I a wife before Jessica. WHAT!? And worst of all, it's in the form of a maudlin romance novel. Is there anything more important to the relationship between Leto and Jessica than the fact that LETO DIDN"T HAVE A WIFE!!!

    ImageImage[



    Wat? Did they really, or are you joking? (I'm a McDune virgin)

    Oh, and welcome to Jacurutu, Renegade Rev Mother.
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    Re: Out in Open Sand

    Postby lotek » 19 Jun 2010 16:12

    Mandy wrote:Wat? Did they really, or are you joking?


    I felt the same everytime I read another of their idiocies, even when you try to come up with the most outrageous contradiction of the true Dune yourself you'll never be able to cough up such abominations in the face of logic, respect and consistency...
    In short, they(well he mainly) is/are dicks!

    Mandy wrote:(I'm a McDune virgin)


    and you're better off that way trust me...

    I was both conned by lies and tricked by my own enthusiasm, which kinda makes it personal now ;)
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    Re: Out in Open Sand

    Postby merkin muffley » 19 Jun 2010 17:51

    Mandy wrote:Wat? Did they really, or are you joking? (I'm a McDune virgin)


    Maybe not a wife, but another woman and another child, and a lot of cheesy things are said, and a lot of people get killed, and she kills herself. And it might not be in Paul of Dune but one of the other ones. The trauma of trying to read those books has distorted my memory.
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    Re: Out in Open Sand

    Postby Mandy » 19 Jun 2010 18:35

    I don't ever plan to read any of them, I get all my McDune info from here :P

    Now and then I am tempted, just so I'll know.. but that knowledge isn't worth it.
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    Re: Out in Open Sand

    Postby DuneFishUK » 19 Jun 2010 18:50

    merkin muffley wrote:
    Mandy wrote:Wat? Did they really, or are you joking? (I'm a McDune virgin)


    Maybe not a wife, but another woman and another child, and a lot of cheesy things are said, and a lot of people get killed, and she kills herself. And it might not be in Paul of Dune but one of the other ones. The trauma of trying to read those books has distorted my memory.

    'Tis true - in the House books.

    Beyond that, I'm grateful that nu-dune is so instantly forgettable :)
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    Re: Out in Open Sand

    Postby lotek » 19 Jun 2010 18:56

    I am living proof as I did read the house series and I do not remember that(or much of any of it for that matter...)

    ...

    which is nice...
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    Re: Out in Open Sand

    Postby Renegade Rev Mother » 19 Jun 2010 19:45

    Oh, my hindquarters have been chapped by “books” before – one of my assignments was Ancient Terran histories to ready me for Missionaria Protectiva, and believe me, they are as easily aufgefickt and poisoned by personal agendas as the McDune plods with plods (credit the Inquisitor General for the Cause of Dune Purity, Chig. :wink: )

    Again, FH’s Canon aside, I find the personalities and stories of the Original Characters irresistible. FH lost me when only Leto II was left, and it was hundreds (thousands) of years in the future and none of the characters that so intrigued and interested me were “around.” I just never “took” to characters like Siona.

    Of the McDune novels, I skipped through The Butlerian Jihad which a) bored the nipples off me (and very nearly the blue from my Eyes of the Ibad), and b) I found more than faintly creepy, which I found more revelatory about the “authors.” As any novice of the Sisterhood could tell you, people reveal much of themselves, and it doesn’t take even a novice to discern that the minds of the McDune Nuggets are a disturbing, disordered place to “be” (I cannot say “plumb,” as that would indicate depth.) Again, I found the Dune Encyclopedia to be far more interesting, and surely, written with more care and attention to FH’s characters and their personalities. There is nothing “wrong” with Dune Encyclopedia, per se; FH himself praised and enjoyed it, the caveat being he did not proclaim himself bound by it, nor should he have been compelled to oblige. After all, these were his characters.

    I didn’t have the heart (nor interest) to plod through the ill-made sand traps of “House” series – after all, if the McDune Nuggets had no sensitivity toward well-known characters, how could their words of their antecedents and genesis be trusted?

    And then, Paul of Dune, which I thought, surely, even minds as dense and unenlightened as a collapsed star could at least make a decent showing of muddling through, because again, the characters are so well-known and exquisitely defined. Obviously, I thought wrong. The basic tenets of personalities were not just muddled and muddied, but actually so distorted as to become unrecognizable, different people, with different motivations entirely. :cat fight:

    The Sisterhood has admitted to playing the character of Leto the Just cheaply, saying “his latent abilities as a father have been grossly underestimated” which is a witchly admission that itself cannot be underestimated; admissions of fault in general and of wrongdoing and/or miscalculations in particular not being their strongest suit. They cannot, somewhat understandably, praise Leto I for his uxoriousness, as this would be inextricably intertwined with what they cannot reconcile: the Jessica Crime.

    Gods below, the hash BH/KJA made! Actually insulting! Leto takes an Ixian princess, Kailea Vernius, as a concubine? Small wonder she and Leto “grew apart” – the Noble Born do not much ken to concubinage, while the Bene Gessirit have the nobly-born amongst us, not all are, and there is nothing to suggest Kailea had Bene Gessirit training or conditioning. The argument that Leto “declines” to marry Kailea (even after this nobly-born princess bears a a son and possible heir) because of the hopes of a political marital match falls apart given that the match itself was born of political hopes, those of Duke Dominic Vernius and his Imperial concubine-turned-Ducal-wife (which would make her a Duchess) Shando Balut. It is not surprising that the princess’s love turned to disenchantment, as she was not conditioned to accept Fate as would a Bene Gessirit, who would be unaware of her noble birth (if she had any) and would not necessarily expect marriage, elevation to and acceptance of rank commiserate with her husband’s, and her child being accepted as heir. It is unlikely a reigning Duke, even if one whose house was renegade, would be complacent about placing his only daughter as a mere concubine, who could (and did) become supplanted by another, whether concubine (as happened) or wife. That would be a dicey future both for political alliance and the princess herself.

    Then there is the issue of Leto I himself, no dummy he, but BH/KJA have him so dim that, even after the alleged débâcle of his own parents’ marriage – and how even marriage cannot keep a wife from murderous rebellion - before him, he doesn’t see the dangers of a concubine’s discontent. Kailea falls easily prey to the Harkonnen plant, Chiara, a ruse so common and pedestrian Leto would have truly to have been a dolt utterly incapable of rule anywhere not only to have allowed her in the Ducal household, but intimate access to his discontented and unhappy concubine. (So much for “One poison, two poison!”)

    Kailea of Ix comes to the same conclusion as Helena of Richese. These nobly-born women appear to frustrate easily, and do not “take” to insults, perceived or real, while the Bene Gessirit “exist only to serve,” are capable of long-range planning and calculation and at least make every attempt not to foul their own nests.

    Helena and Kailea themselves – so one-dimensional and unsophisticated that they would believe – and the readers accept – they could kill their husbands and… what? Assume power and regencies? Kailea could not even get marriage, yet she thought it was even a possibility she could be accepted (and able) to rule a world? The Dukes concerned (Paulus and Leto I) were beloved by their people – yet these same people would accept intimates-turned-assassins – and one a mere concubine - as rulers? Even had they, the Houses of the Landsraad, to say nothing of the Emperor, would have pounced before the ducal bodies had even reached room temperature. No one loves a traitor, and it would have been an easy stroke of propaganda to put the treacherous Lady Helena on public trial and execute her.

    Leto I, whose astuteness and sensitivity made him aware of, and open to, the possibilities of Arrakis beyond the Spice itself, to include the cultivation of people and populaces (a concept seemingly largely unknown to other Houses of the Landsraad; indeed, even the Imperial House), and yet he was blind to Court intrigues and dangers that would have been part of his daily life since he drew his first breath?

    Incomprehensible.

    And then, once the whole Helena-Kailea double helix (pointless, obvious, mundane…) mess is plodded… and plodded (and, as usual, arrives nowhere, and not only that, Leto learns nothing from it) we have a complete abnegation of the characters of Leto (well, further, in Leto’s case) and Jessica. Yeah, sure, he’s taken with her, but this man who declares to his son in the Very First Book of the Canon Dune Novels that his sole regret was that he failed to marry Jessica and make her his Duchess easily tumbles for Ilesa of Ecaz, and even has Paul accompany him for his and Ilesa’s betrothal, which, even given Jessica’s exquisite Bene Gessirit sensibilities and control, would be a bitter pill for any woman in love to swallow. Then we have Leto asking Jessica to accept even more – asking her to nursemaid and train her own replacement (Jessica, with powerful powers of observation, could have hardly failed to note Leto’s infatuation, about which as a Bene Gessirit she could categorize and be coolly analytical, but as a woman who had already broken with enough of those same Bene Gessirit tenets to fall in love with Leto and directly flout her Bene Gessirit commands and produce a son, she would have been stricken.)

    If Paul was the accepted heir, which by all accounts he was, what, exactly, would this political alliance gain anyone? (A niggling point even with the Canon Dune.) With Paul as heir, unless he could be demoted at Leto’s wish, any child of Leto and Ilesa’s would fall behind Paul in the Succession, leaving Ilesa every inch the figurehead the (admittedly, wife-only-in-name) Princess Irulan would someday be.

    The “blendericious” (credit: Chig) Royal Wedding Massacre was a foregone conclusion, and one that, as I wrote before, was the product of two 12 year old male minds – when in a doubt, kill everyone off, and as spectacularly and bloodily as possible. That chapter could have been entitled “Into the Cuisinart.” (AICR, and I could be wrong, wasn’t there even Hwi Noree-esque dying words from Ilesa to Leto?)

    The blood has barely been sopped up when Jessica forgives Leto and they’re back to their pre-Ilesa Nonsense intimacy, which would have been possible had Jessica been merely a Bene Gessirit serving her duty, and less quick for a woman whose choices and risks had been seemingly so easily set aside. Jessica, in the Canon Dune novels, had always been prepared for the possibility, perhaps even likelihood, of a political match. She is on record saying she would have “encouraged it, because she did love the Duke, in fact, mourned forever for his loss. But the Ilesa episode is never presented in the cold light of politics, but Leto being easily swayed, which FH’s Leto was made of sterner – and certainly more loyal – stuff. There were courtly and diplomatic obligations, and then there was emotion and the loyalty born of love and emotion. FH’s Leto knew the difference.

    Oh, so many injustices… like Lotek, I was pulled in by my own interests, got Ye Olde Bait and Switch, and now, indeed, it’s personal!

    BTW, yes, Chig, HIT IT with the “Fremen for Dunies” (not Dunnites, Freak. :wink:) If not we, who will educate and welcome the searching masses now that FH has departed? If we do not, the heresies of BH/KJA and their gobbledegook could become Canon. Need I remind thee, the famous Chig, and mention… Chrisa Sala Muad'Dib which clangs so discordantly on ears only faintly acquainted with Fremen and Chaboksa?! FH didn’t just pull those languages out of the ether in his lower colon, they are based on actual languages. I know Chig dislikes the CoD’s “Inama Nushif”; I find it haunting lovely and stirring myself, and even accept it is not true Fremen, but it’s damned less offensive than Chrisa Sala Muad'Dib, Brian Tyler seeming to have made more of a good faith effort than FH’s own son and his “partner.” Also, Brian Tyler has neither claimed to be Dune novelist, nor FH’s “successor.” This gives him a bit of latitude and creative license, IMHO, and may his melody draw newbies to Dune!


    Question: Green tushie? :mrgreen:

    NB: I am not “RevMom” from an older forum; I am complete newbie. An in-sietch Reverend Mother being a good thing, نعم ? :pray:

    !يا حي الشهداء / YA HYA CHOUHADA!

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    "Bless the Maker and His water. Bless His coming and His going. May His passing cleanse the world, may He keep the world for His people. Bi-la kaifa!"
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    Re: Out in Open Sand

    Postby SandRider » 19 Jun 2010 22:35


    Welcome, Blessed Sister, amongst the Cast-Out. Your Water is Ours.





    I'd like to see a submission from you in the up-coming
    Jacurutu/HairyTicks Canon FanFiction Contest ....


    I'd also like to see you in a quicksand wrestling match with the Reverend Mother Q ...

    given your status, I guess you're exempted from walking the stunted worms and cleaning up slig shit;
    however, I could use a sandwich and a :obscene-drinkingbeer: , sooo .....
    ................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
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    I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
    how to fully interact with people.
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    Re: Out in Open Sand

    Postby Eyes High » 19 Jun 2010 23:29

    Down Papa Bear. Down boy. :mrgreen:
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    Re: Out in Open Sand

    Postby Renegade Rev Mother » 20 Jun 2010 00:17

    Why, Sandrider, I've often appreciated a forthright man of the sand, rider of worms. Those attributes are, indeed, what make Fremen so refreshing after one has spent time among and studied noble fops and their hangers-on. Fremen are men with a little bite to them. (Stand down, remember I have the Voice, and I'd hate to start off here at Jacarutu sietch by decorating my yali with tanned skin of one of Jacarutu's own.) Thank the Holy Mothers, my rank is sufficiently august (though, like a naib, a servant I am) not to even consider "walking" any stunted worms, to say nothing of "cleaning up slig shit," and you can schlep your own spice beer if you cannot convince a decent Fremen woman or pay another to bring you some. :naughty:

    I thank you for your welcome.

    Reverend Mother Q? Quintinius Violet Chenoeh? She never became a Reverend Mother, she flopped out during the Spice Agony (if you can't run with the big worms, stay deep in the bled.) No sand-wrasslin' for me, quick- or otherwise; not a fan of sand in the undies (RMs, even renegades, insist on some comforts; yes, no need to elaborate, Texan Fremen free-ball.) If sand-wrasslin' is your thing, I'm sure Chig, Freak and/or Omph have designated, or know of, a place for it.

    For outright, bare-knuckle sand wrasslin', I'd have to give points to the perhaps lesser-known Hypa-Manic Jihad, which I read over on Chig's extra yali, "The Hairy Ticks of Dune." It may be two years old, but some things stand the time of time and sand. I haven't seen inchoate hysteria like that since Baron Vladimir Harkonnen was told he couldn't wear fishnets and a pleasure-slave outfit to a Royal dinner. Gods below, I'd call that burst of wind a desert demon except that it would shame the demons, and both storms and demons have more... organization and form. Reading that display's "answers," I was reminded of the final struggles of Alia, except that the tragedy of Alia inspires pity, while that Other Subject is barely coherent enough to inspire scorn.

    FanFic... I have never attempted that. Perhaps a report to the Sisterhood? I am open to suggestions. (Caveat: If you want to read about "thunderous" thrashin' around, Sandrider, might I suggest... BH/KJA? :wink: )

    ~ RRM
    "Our test is crisis and observation."
    "U tishuf hatt al-hudud / alman albaid. / Ayway libarr / adam almalum / tishuf liani..."
    "Bless the Maker and His water. Bless His coming and His going. May His passing cleanse the world, may He keep the world for His people. Bi-la kaifa!"
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    Re: Out in Open Sand

    Postby SandChigger » 20 Jun 2010 04:32

    Renegade Rev Mother wrote:I know Chig dislikes the CoD’s “Inama Nushif”; I find it haunting lovely and stirring myself, and even accept it is not true Fremen, but it’s damned less offensive than Chrisa Sala Muad'Dib, Brian Tyler seeming to have made more of a good faith effort than FH’s own son and his “partner.” Also, Brian Tyler has neither claimed to be Dune novelist, nor FH’s “successor.” This gives him a bit of latitude and creative license, IMHO, and may his melody draw newbies to Dune!

    I actually quite like the song itself, and listen to the CoD soundtrack all the time on the commute drive. (In fact, I think the CD is what's in the car player at the moment.) ;)

    My beef isn't with Brian Tyler as a composer, it's that he's a liar/plagiarist. :) Since he stole the Fremen lyrics, except for the parts he mangled and the gibberish he added, it's perfectly good "Fremen" Arabic from The Dune Encyclopedia. His original English lyrics (the English "translation") have nothing at all to do with the meaning of the Fremen words.

    I just wish he'd respond to my attempts at contacting him and explain why he told Greg Yaitanes that he got the words in the lyrics from Frank Herbert's books and put them together himself. :(
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