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    Re: Long time...

    Postby Freakzilla » 16 Oct 2009 09:04

    The Confederacy was just before it's time, it should have had robots instead. :wink:
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    Re: Long time...

    Postby lotek » 16 Oct 2009 10:12

    Freakzilla wrote:The Confederacy was just before it's time, it should have had robots instead. :wink:

    robots that will become so intelligent they will try to destroy humanity as soon as they have the chance?
    no way!
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    Re: Long time...

    Postby Mandy » 16 Oct 2009 11:05

    SandRider wrote:
    Mandy wrote:Very few Southerners were rich enough to own slaves.


    My research and personal experience is that this idea is a rather recent one, in response
    to the Civil Rights movement, the ending of segregation (in the North as well as the
    South), the reparations issue, white guilt, &etc.

    The last Slave Schedule filed with the Census Bureau in 1856 shows that a rather large proportion
    of Southern households owned at least one slave. My second great-grandfather, a minor
    planter in central Alabama before The War, owned eight. (These people also moved with
    the family from Alabama to Mississippi in 1866, and to Arkansas by 1869. To this day, in the
    county where he settled, you can find white and black families with the same family name.)

    (this, BTW, does not indicate inter-marriage between the families, but the common practice
    of slaves taking their master's family name after The War, as most slaves stayed where they
    were and became sharecroppers on the same fields. Taking the former master's last name was
    a form of protection & subservience)

    I bring that up because I have heard for many years white people in the South saying,
    "I don't owe them nothing, my family was too poor to own slaves." After doing a ton of
    genealogical research in confirming membership applications for the Sons of Confederate
    Veterans, I can almost guarantee you I can turn up a slave-holder in your tree....

    sho' nuff.


    If you did genealogical research for almost any family (that has been here for the last 200-300 yrs) in the US I bet you'd turn up slaveholders. I think it's a common misconception that only Southerners owned slaves, and this misconception is allowed to persist for some reason. I believe quite a few of our founding fathers were slaveholders, or come from families that had been slaveholders. Slavery was legal in all the original colonies and in some of them went on right up to the Civil War.

    Here's an interesting article a quick Google search turned up http://www.yalelawjournal.org/111/1/183 ... schel.html
    As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hypatia approaches one.
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    Re: Long time...

    Postby chanilover » 18 Oct 2009 18:20

    SandRider wrote:
    white Southerners try to claim their dialect comes from Scottish or English dialects even though no Scottish or English dialects sound like the Southern US dialect,


    whoever wrote that was a total idiot.
    (maybe this was the same person who keeps trying to convince you the Nazis were 'left-wing' ?)


    No, it was the ‘idiots’ who wrote this book called The Story Of English, a tie-in to a BBC series of the same name. Here’s a little sample:

    “"The plantations of the deep South became the cradle of a new ingredient in American culture. The English of the slaves was having a decisive effect on the English of their White Anglo-Saxon masters. The Southern accent of the United States would almost certainly have been quite different without the influence of the Blacks. The influence of Black English was felt in the fields (where slave and overseer would mix), in the house (where master and mistress used Plantation Creole to communicate with their house slaves); but above all, it was found in the nursery. Up to the age of about six years, Black and White children grew up together, played together, and learned together. In these crucial years of their development the Whites were often outnumbered by the Black slave children. Furthermore, all the nursing -- as any reader of Southern literature knows -- was done by Blacks. As early as the mid-eighteenth century, it was reported that, 'the better sort, in this country, particularly, consign their children to the care of Negroes ...

    Interestingly, English author Charles Dickens, while on an American tour, noticed that Southern women were most influenced by Black English. The reason for this was that young Southern women more often stayed on the plantations, while the young men of well-to-do families "were usually sent away to White schools, often in the Northern states."

    The BBC has many faults, but it's academic programming is generally not renowned for idiocy.

    Chig can confirm this, but most linguists consider the American Southern "accent" to be a
    form of Scottish dialect.

    rich whitey letting the house slaves raise their kids who copied the speech of the slaves


    read that back to yourself out loud ....


    Reading it out loud makes perfect sense. That’s what happened. Whites used Blacks as slaves in the most repulsive form of racism in history, where the only criterion needed for a life of slavery was the colour of your skin. I’ve read all the drivel spouted about the social and economic factors of slavery and your civil war, but it was filthy racism, nothing more or less than that.

    White Southerners in the US don’t sound Scottish, and you don’t sound like people from Northern Ireland. You talk like Blacks, deal with it. American Blacks have a similar type of speech to West Indies Blacks and Africans, and it doesn’t sound like any accent over here. Maybe this received wisdom you have about the Southern dialect coming from Scotland or Northern Ireland and influencing the Blacks, rather than the Blacks influencing the Whites, was written by a load of old white racists who couldn’t bear the thought that their dialect results from the influence of Blacks. Maybe as I’m mixed race I can appreciate the delicious irony of a society with one of the most fucked up history of race relations, from segregation to burning crosses, having a speech pattern influenced by the most denigrated sector of that society.

    You know when you type shite like ‘British fags’, ‘Eurofags’, ‘cockbreath’ and your other inane homophobic bile, you do ever read them out loud?
    Meh, scratch a 'liberal'and you’ll find a bigot under the surface. I'm amazed you can spout such bigoted shit from your soapbox, hypocrite.

    The Nazis had economic programmes which were left of centre, and the liberal left and progressives have a history, admittedly brushed under the carpet, which is full of stinkiing racism.
    "You and your buddies and that b*tch Mandy are nothing but a gang of lying, socially maladjusted losers." - St Hypatia of Arrakeen.
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    Re: Long time...

    Postby Mandy » 18 Oct 2009 19:06

    If that were all true, then why didn't the wealthy Northern whites talk like blacks? I'm not saying the accents of the blacks didn't have an influence on the Southern accent as a whole, but from what you're saying everyone should have a "black" accent. Slavery wasn't invented in the Southern US.
    As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Hypatia approaches one.
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    Re: Long time...

    Postby SandRider » 18 Oct 2009 21:44

    The English language came to America by way of English speakers, on boats. Because of the varying nature of English accents in Great Britain, the sort of people who were on these boats and when they left turns out to be very significant linguistically. The first wave of settlers came from southern England. They were slow talkers and had the stubborn sort of accent that refuses to pronounce the supposedly disgusting 'r' sound (some Americans inherited this trait and declared that the US would never be civilised until it totally got rid of the horrible 'r' sound from its speech). In not very much time at all, settlers from England had claimed the prized Tidewater area and built their coastal plantations, and there wasn't much land left for new settlers.

    Nevertheless, from 1717-1800, English speaking people from Scotland and Northern Ireland (the Scots-Irish or Scotch-Irish) came to America and went down river channels to settle further inland. The inland areas did not have soil as fertile as that near the coastal lands, and there were greater problems with transportation. The Scots-Irish people settled along the Allegheny Mountains, the Piedmont Plateau and the Appalachian Mountains. These settlers knew how to pronounce the 'r' sound and did so enthusiastically. For many years, two Southern accents developed independently.

    The vocabulary of coastal Southerners was influenced by African-American slaves (and eventually slave descendants), who were abundant around the Atlantic coast. In turn, African-Americans became influenced by Southern speech and developed a fairly uniform English speech pattern similar to Southern speech in vowel use and with respect to the 'r' sound. The inland settlers did not have the sort of land that would support a plantation, and therefore had few, if any, slaves. The Scots- Irish vernacular along the Appalachian mountains did not change much over time, and some scholars contend that Appalachian, or 'hillbilly' talk is very close to what Elizabethan English would have sounded like. The hillbilly use of the 'r' sound eventually came to overtake the coastal revulsion of the 'r'. Now it is more common for Southerners to pronounce their 'r's. Nevertheless, some vestiges remain. It is not uncommon for Southerners to make a post-vocal 'r' drop in words like 'bastud' (bastard) and 'baun' (born). On the other hand, African-Americans popularly retain their 'r' loss and are more likely to pronounce words like 'fo', 'flo' and 'mo' (for, floor and more, respectively). What's more, African-American English tends to be fairly consistent throughout the country. So African- American communities in cities with vastly different dialects such as Philadelphia, Boston and New Orleans would all speak in roughly the same dialect - heavily influenced by coastal Southern talk from centuries past.

    Still today, Appalachian, or 'hillbilly' dialect is distinctive from the dialect of the speech of the rest of the South. People from around the Appalachian mountains have words unknown to the rest of the country which have Scottish and Irish origin. They also use words that etymologists are at a loss to explain. The best explanation for those words is that the hillbillies simply made them up.


    The Appalachian/Ozark dialect, a close cousin of the Southern dialect5, is sometimes known as the 'Hillbilly' accent. Most of its true adherents are low income, uneducated people in and around the Ozark mountains and the Appalachian mountains. It is associated with a rural or blue collar lifestyle, and is not dissimilar to the 'redneck' manner of speech that characterises many farmers throughout America, from sea to shining sea. While being called a 'hillbilly' or 'redneck' generally carries negative connotations, there are those who are quite proud of that distinction.

    It is known among other things for putting the vowel 'a' where it doesn't belong. Specifically, you'll often see an 'a' in front of an '-ing' word (and the 'g' sound will disappear as well). For example, 'Hold on, I'm a-comin' fellers.' A good example of this kind of dialect is the theme song of the old TV show 'The Beverly Hillbillies' (as well as the dialogue on the show itself)-

    Come and listen to a story 'bout a man named Jed
    Purr mountaineer burrly kept his fam-lee fed
    Then one day he was shootin' at some food,
    And up through the ground come a-bubblin' crude
    (Oil that is, black gold, Texas tea)

    The Appalachian accent is strongly related to the Scots-Irish who settled around the Appalachian mountains in the early part of the 18th century. Some of the odd words that are used in the Ozarks and around Appalachia have Scottish or Irish origin. There are also many similarities between the Appalachian/Ozark dialect and the Southern accent. But the Appalachian is the much stronger accent, with its own subtle characteristics. For one thing, you seem to hear the word 'possum' more when speaking to hillbillies than in any other dialect.


    Texas is an enormous place. It is the second largest state in size and second largest state in population. It was once an independent country (the Lone Star Republic) and actually has several very diverse regions. It would be folly to lump a state like Texas in with the rest of the American South without further explanation. Researchers have found that proud Texans are more likely to adopt the 'Texas Twang' that characterizes their state. Texans who hate Texas are more likely to have a flat, plain accent. In this sense, the Texas accent appears to be one of choice, relative to social identity.

    First, there are east Texans, where much oil is produced, or as they will pronounce it, 'all'. Their drawl is thick and is more similar to the speech of residents of the 'Deep South'. It is more like the standard Southern accent than other Texas dialects.

    Next come west Texans, who act like cowboys and have the boots and hats to prove it. They also talk like cowboys. Or rather, the popular image of the cowboy has been shaped by Hollywood through TV shows and movies, who hired Texans to teach their film stars how to speak with the west Texas 'twang' which seemed to fit with the cowboy image. Bob Hinkle, an influential West Texan speaking coach in Hollywood once said, 'In Texas, yew don’t say near as many words, but yew git it said, an’ yew slow it down to where people kin understan’ it.'6 When British actor Michael Caine had to imitate a west Texas accent for a movie role, he had this to say -

    It's a frame of mind. Texans talk slowly. And the reason they talk slowly, is because they're usually about six feet tall and have a gun. And they know you're listening! And they're not in a hurry to do anything. It's a very hot place. It's a very big place, and it can be a very lonely place. So they don't talk very much. And when they do, they make sure you listen. And it's a very lazy sort of voice.

    When I was learning the accent, my teacher, my dialogue coach said to me, let's hear your accent now. I did the accent, and he said, that's the Texas accent. With an English rhythm! He said, each word is standing up on its own, separately. The Texas language is lazy, he said. The words all lean on each other, just-like-this. Everything, the words just about fall over. And each word hits the other one. And that's how it comes about. That's it! It's easy. It took me three months to do that.

    The drawl of Texas is similar to the rest of the South (without the dropped 'r' sound that some Southerners carry), stretched by diphthongization. However, Texans are not above 'monophthongization' which doesn't usually happen elsewhere in the South. A word like 'hire' in most American accents would be phonetically pronounced 'high-urr', but Texans flatten it out to one vowel sound, which comes out like 'harr'. In the same way, 'fire' and 'far' are homonyms in a Texan accent. Also, while most of the South would pronounce the words 'caught' and 'cot' differently, Texans pronounce them with a flat 'kawt' sound.

    The Texan accent is actually something of a mix between the plain dialect of the American west, the drawling dialect of the American South, and oddly enough, Spanish from Mexican immigrants. There are subtle variations in accents throughout the state, mainly due to geographic factors like proximity to the three influences listed.

    There are more than a few well-known Texas accents. Tommy Lee Jones, born in a small town in central Texas, has a strong and authentic Texan accent. Mike Judge, a resident of Austin, Texas, voices several characters for his animated television show 'King of the Hill' with a great Texas accent.



    the source, BTW : idiots @the BBC
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A30501695

    this was found in a matter of seconds using BING!,
    which, BTW, is no fucking different whatsoever than google.

    one of a whole slew of sources & citations saying the same thing:
    the Southern "accent" is an evolution of Ulster-Scot, and if you'll
    re-read my posts, you'll see I said that certainly Southern Speech
    was, has been, and is being influenced by Black Americans, but
    Black Americans are not the "source & origin" of the Southern "accent".

    all this shouldn't really be too difficult to understand -
    the African slaves didn't arrive here speaking English -
    it was taught to them by Southerners.

    I guess I should take offense at your attacking me, accusing me of
    all this racism to the point that I would "twist history to fit
    my prejudices", but I've heard that kind of bullshit all my life in
    discussions with people ignorant of the South, some of whom had actually
    been in the South.

    I guess I should I take offense at you accusing me of homophobia,
    but I think you know better, and besides, you just so cute
    when you get all riled up.

    nothing wrong with that. get pissed off, call me mean names, flame
    away. you're just wrong about the Language thing, and it's not your
    fault, it's one of those misconceptions that fit somebody else's
    agenda (racist or otherwise) and has been passed around for many years.

    it's still wrong, tho.

    sho' nuff raung.


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    Re: Long time...

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 19 Oct 2009 14:05

    I have to say, SR is the last person I would ever accuse of having twisted history due to racism. He's repeatedly admitted the faults of the south and it's people, and has ranted against his racist relatives very publicly here.

    Not saying he's always correct, but if he's wrong it's certainly not going to be because he's trying to make excuses for anyone, it'll be because whatever information he's working from is flawed.
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    Re: Long time...

    Postby chanilover » 20 Oct 2009 16:07

    SandRider wrote:
    the source, BTW : idiots @the BBC
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A30501695

    this was found in a matter of seconds using BING!,
    which, BTW, is no fucking different whatsoever than google.

    one of a whole slew of sources & citations saying the same thing:
    the Southern "accent" is an evolution of Ulster-Scot, and if you'll
    re-read my posts, you'll see I said that certainly Southern Speech
    was, has been, and is being influenced by Black Americans, but
    Black Americans are not the "source & origin" of the Southern "accent".

    all this shouldn't really be too difficult to understand -
    the African slaves didn't arrive here speaking English -
    it was taught to them by Southerners.

    I guess I should take offense at your attacking me, accusing me of
    all this racism to the point that I would "twist history to fit
    my prejudices", but I've heard that kind of bullshit all my life in
    discussions with people ignorant of the South, some of whom had actually
    been in the South.


    Get over yourself, I didn't call you racist, I said you spout homophobic bile.

    I guess I should I take offense at you accusing me of homophobia,
    but I think you know better,


    What makes you think that? I don't remember seeing anything from you to make me think otherwise.

    and besides, you just so cute
    when you get all riled up.


    Patronising old goat.

    Anyway, this Northern Irish thing is an interesing theory which doesn't really explain why US Southerners don't sound like people from Northern Ireland. You do sound like Black people from the US and West Indies, though.

    nothing wrong with that. get pissed off, call me mean names, flame
    away. you're just wrong about the Language thing, and it's not your
    fault, it's one of those misconceptions that fit somebody else's
    agenda (racist or otherwise) and has been passed around for many years.



    I doubt it.
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    Re: Long time...

    Postby Freakzilla » 21 Oct 2009 06:48

    chanilover wrote:Patronising old goat.


    Title/Rank suggestion? :think:
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    Re: Long time...

    Postby Serkanner » 21 Oct 2009 14:36

    Freakzilla wrote:
    chanilover wrote:Patronising old goat.


    Title/Rank suggestion? :think:


    Gets my vote :lol:
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    Re: Long time...

    Postby Tleszer » 22 Oct 2009 10:16

    :shifty:

    I like it, but you may want to go with "Patronizing Old Goat."

    :dance:
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    Re: Long time...

    Postby Eru » 23 Oct 2009 17:01

    How did this thread turn into a discussion about racism? :clap:
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    Re: Long time...

    Postby inhuien » 23 Oct 2009 17:12

    softly softly catchee monkey.
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    Re: Long time...

    Postby Nekhrun » 23 Oct 2009 18:07

    Eru wrote:How did this thread turn into a discussion about racism? :clap:

    We're the masters of off-topic posts. Spooooooon!
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    Re: Long time...

    Postby SandChigger » 23 Oct 2009 20:30

    Oh, fork you, Mountain Dewd. :cat fight:
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