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A Thing of Eternity
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 20 Nov 2008 19:45

Agreed.
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TheDukester
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Postby TheDukester » 20 Nov 2008 20:16

It stops for me at CoD, honestly.

(Although I've been meaning to give GEoD another go-around ...)
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On the Dune sequels

Postby Sole Man » 20 Nov 2008 20:56

I'd say it stops at DUNE... though maybe DUNE MESSIAH is worth considering. (That was where Frank kind of made his point)

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Postby Frybread » 20 Nov 2008 22:19

Freakzilla wrote:
Frybread wrote:
Laphtiya wrote:ROFL bicycle pumps take too much effort.......not..that I would know of course :lol:

At least my GF hasn't experianced the hackerson novels. But she hasn't read passed Dune, according to her the story ended there for her.


You know, there are times when I wish that Frank had stopped with "Dune." However, I have enjoyed the other five books, which are all much better than Combover and That Other Guy's efforts.


For me the story stops at the end of GEoD. It could actually stop at the end of CoD and GEoD is just details.

The events in HoD and CH:D have no effect, CANNOT HAVE, an effect on the Golden Path.


Actually, GEoD is my second favorite book, after Dune. I could see it being considered the last in the story of the Golden Path, since Leto II is killed and divides and thereafter we have the Scattering.

And if the Scattering truly was infinite, what real danger did the Honored Matres and the Unknown Enemy really present in HoD and CH:D? I mean, no matter how far and wide the New Face Dancers could cast their tachyon net, humanity was too large and spread out to be engulfed and destroyed, right?

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SimonH
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Postby SimonH » 20 Nov 2008 22:54

Frybread wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Frybread wrote:
Laphtiya wrote:ROFL bicycle pumps take too much effort.......not..that I would know of course :lol:

At least my GF hasn't experianced the hackerson novels. But she hasn't read passed Dune, according to her the story ended there for her.


You know, there are times when I wish that Frank had stopped with "Dune." However, I have enjoyed the other five books, which are all much better than Combover and That Other Guy's efforts.


For me the story stops at the end of GEoD. It could actually stop at the end of CoD and GEoD is just details.

The events in HoD and CH:D have no effect, CANNOT HAVE, an effect on the Golden Path.


Actually, GEoD is my second favorite book, after Dune. I could see it being considered the last in the story of the Golden Path, since Leto II is killed and divides and thereafter we have the Scattering.

And if the Scattering truly was infinite, what real danger did the Honored Matres and the Unknown Enemy really present in HoD and CH:D? I mean, no matter how far and wide the New Face Dancers could cast their tachyon net, humanity was too large and spread out to be engulfed and destroyed, right?


sorry to be picky, but were the words "tachyon net" ever used in CH:D ?

I thought that was a P&B creation. My interpretation of the "net" was that Duncan was visualising the "fix" that Marty and Daniel had on him, not something real. That may be a minority opinion :D

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Postby Frybread » 20 Nov 2008 22:56

SimonH wrote:
Frybread wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Frybread wrote:
Laphtiya wrote:ROFL bicycle pumps take too much effort.......not..that I would know of course :lol:

At least my GF hasn't experianced the hackerson novels. But she hasn't read passed Dune, according to her the story ended there for her.


You know, there are times when I wish that Frank had stopped with "Dune." However, I have enjoyed the other five books, which are all much better than Combover and That Other Guy's efforts.


For me the story stops at the end of GEoD. It could actually stop at the end of CoD and GEoD is just details.

The events in HoD and CH:D have no effect, CANNOT HAVE, an effect on the Golden Path.


Actually, GEoD is my second favorite book, after Dune. I could see it being considered the last in the story of the Golden Path, since Leto II is killed and divides and thereafter we have the Scattering.

And if the Scattering truly was infinite, what real danger did the Honored Matres and the Unknown Enemy really present in HoD and CH:D? I mean, no matter how far and wide the New Face Dancers could cast their tachyon net, humanity was too large and spread out to be engulfed and destroyed, right?


sorry to be picky, but were the words "tachyon net" ever used in CH:D ?

I thought that was a P&B creation. My interpretation of the "net" was that Duncan was visualising the "fix" that Marty and Daniel had on him, not something real. That may be a minority opinion :D


Oh fuck, I hope you are wrong! If I am using some shit that I read from HuoD or SoD then I will shoot myself! <sob>

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Postby Illogical Banana » 21 Nov 2008 01:04

My search of tachyon in my .pdf only turned up these 2 occurences:

Resonances and tachyon theory held his attention for a time. Tachyon
theory figured in Holzmann's original design. "Techys," Holzmann had
called his energy source.
“But what is the good of friendship if one cannot say exactly what one means? Anybody can say charming things and try to please and to flatter, but a true friend always says unpleasant things, and does not mind giving pain. Indeed, if he is a really true friend he prefers it, for he knows that then he is doing good.” -Oscar Wilde

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Postby Frybread » 21 Nov 2008 11:21

Illogical Banana wrote:My search of tachyon in my .pdf only turned up these 2 occurences:

Resonances and tachyon theory held his attention for a time. Tachyon
theory figured in Holzmann's original design. "Techys," Holzmann had
called his energy source.


I guess I'll find out since I am re-reading HoD and will also re-read CH:D.

Nevertheless, the point still stands that Marty and Daniel's net could not have threatened humanity as a whole because by their time humans were spreading throughout the universe.

So I can see how some people can say that HoD and CH:D did not matter in the grand scheme of things because the Honored Matres and the New Face Dancers could never truly threaten the Golden Path.

Edited to add that with the aforementioned in mind, then HoD and CH:D concerned the survival of the Bene Gesserit and the remnants and culture of the Old Empire, but not humanity.

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Postby Drunken Idaho » 21 Nov 2008 13:00

Frybread wrote:
Illogical Banana wrote:My search of tachyon in my .pdf only turned up these 2 occurences:

Resonances and tachyon theory held his attention for a time. Tachyon
theory figured in Holzmann's original design. "Techys," Holzmann had
called his energy source.


I guess I'll find out since I am re-reading HoD and will also re-read CH:D.

Nevertheless, the point still stands that Marty and Daniel's net could not have threatened humanity as a whole because by their time humans were spreading throughout the universe.

So I can see how some people can say that HoD and CH:D did not matter in the grand scheme of things because the Honored Matres and the New Face Dancers could never truly threaten the Golden Path.

Edited to add that with the aforementioned in mind, then HoD and CH:D concerned the survival of the Bene Gesserit and the remnants and culture of the Old Empire, but not humanity.


I am also re-reading HoD, and planning to re-read Chapterhouse! :D

BUT...

I disagree with you. I do believe Frank was getting at something big. Something as big as the previous novels. And it involved AI. The hints are all there.
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Tleszer
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Postby Tleszer » 21 Nov 2008 14:23

The HM were certainly running from something and needed the BG biochemical control to counteract poisons but I'm not entirely convinced that it had to do with AI. Then again, when I think of AI I cannot help but think of O & E.

KJA & BH have ruined killer-robot AI for me. :) At least I still have the Terminator 1, 2, and the TV series.

[EDIT]
I can't believe I forgot to mention BSG. Too bad it's ending next year.
Last edited by Tleszer on 21 Nov 2008 15:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Serkanner » 21 Nov 2008 15:16

"Resonances and tachyon theory held his attention for a time. Tachyon theory figured in Holzmann's original design. "Techys," Holzmann had called his energy source.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

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and wrote a Dune Novel."

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on The last two FH books

Postby Sole Man » 21 Nov 2008 18:36

What if they were running from something in another one of his books? Like the white Plague, or whatever the Hell it was in the Jesus incident? Or something bigger, something so horrifeiny it killed FH just to think about it?

What if they were running from...

KJA'S HEAD?!?!?!

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A Thing of Eternity
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 21 Nov 2008 18:39

:lol:
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Postby SandChigger » 21 Nov 2008 18:41

:roll:


I really wish everyone would stop referring to infinity and near-infinity and whatever else when talking about the Scattering. :roll:

Infinity is an abstract concept. Nothing real is or can be infinite. The size of the universe is not infinite. The number of seconds it will exist is not infinite. The number of atoms in it is not infinite. And the number of people who could be out in the Scattering after just 1,500 some years certainly cannot be infinite. Or anywhere near it, even if they fucked like bleeding minks after reaching reproductive maturity and had zero mortality and lived for a real long time. (Which we can assume they didn't.)

Even if you throw in multiple universes, there will still be a limited number of people in them, not infinite.

It's not that the number of people in the Scattering is so big, it's that you can't fucking find them all. Because prescients can't see them. And they used Ixian Navigation Devices to get where they are (and not a few were probably in no-ships), so the Guild doesn't have records/charts leading to them.
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Postby SandChigger » 21 Nov 2008 22:38

I blame Freak.

Or his parents. :P


(Semantics muffin? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever....)
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Postby Rakis » 22 Nov 2008 00:07

Baraka Bryan wrote:
Frybread wrote:
Illogical Banana wrote:My search of tachyon in my .pdf only turned up these 2 occurences:

Resonances and tachyon theory held his attention for a time. Tachyon
theory figured in Holzmann's original design. "Techys," Holzmann had
called his energy source.


I guess I'll find out since I am re-reading HoD and will also re-read CH:D.

Nevertheless, the point still stands that Marty and Daniel's net could not have threatened humanity as a whole because by their time humans were spreading throughout the universe.

So I can see how some people can say that HoD and CH:D did not matter in the grand scheme of things because the Honored Matres and the New Face Dancers could never truly threaten the Golden Path.

Edited to add that with the aforementioned in mind, then HoD and CH:D concerned the survival of the Bene Gesserit and the remnants and culture of the Old Empire, but not humanity.



i agree... the scope of the first books was the old empire and this remained constant into HoD and Ch:D while humanity had expanded far beyond that. the last book was about the anomalies that occurred out in the near-infinite human existence meeting the old empire and the interaction there. i'm not convinced AI would have ever played a role in it but I was open to the possibility before the hacks ruined it :(


Maybe not AI, but the next step in evolution in the Holzmann vs mind theories,like a step beyond the navigators... :?:
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on Tachyons

Postby Sole Man » 22 Nov 2008 10:25

I Tachyons are metnioned in WATCHMEN which published in 1986...

But a lot of you probbaly already knew that.

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Postby Freakzilla » 22 Nov 2008 13:17

HoD & CH:D are certainly about the survival of the Bene Gesserit and not all of humanity, but that is just a local event. I think of it as the end of the Old Empire. Humanity is not infinite then but as SC said no one force can eliminate them all and hopefully they are better prepared thanks to the GP to succede as long as the universe lasts.

The HM were said to outnumber the BG 10,000 to 1 I think? So of course the Enemy of Many Faces was something big however I don't think FH ever implied that it was big enough to stop The Scattering.

There's no single set of limits for all men. Universal prescience is an empty myth. Only the most powerful local currents of Time may be foretold. But in an infinite universe, local can be so gigantic that your mind shrinks from it.
~Leto II, CoD

From RM Lucilla's conversation with GHM it sounded more like the HM were fleeing a revolution as exiles than runing from some outside, ancient threat. I think the Lost Masters developed biolocial weapons and SFDs to overthrow them. We still have no reason not to assume that people didn't expand beyond HM control as The Scattering ripppled through the universe.
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Postby Frybread » 22 Nov 2008 13:32

Freakzilla wrote:HoD & CH:D are certainly about the survival of the Bene Gesserit and not all of humanity, but that is just a local event. I think of it as the end of the Old Empire. Humanity is not infinite then but as SC said no one force can eliminate them all and hopefully they are better prepared thanks to the GP to succede as long as the universe lasts.

The HM were said to outnumber the BG 10,000 to 1 I think? So of course the Enemy of Many Faces was something big however I don't think FH ever implied that it was big enough to stop The Scattering.

There's no single set of limits for all men. Universal prescience is an empty myth. Only the most powerful local currents of Time may be foretold. But in an infinite universe, local can be so gigantic that your mind shrinks from it.
~Leto II, CoD

From RM Lucilla's conversation with GHM it sounded more like the HM were fleeing a revolution as exiles than runing from some outside, ancient threat. I think the Lost Masters developed biolocial weapons and SFDs to overthrow them. We still have no reason not to assume that people didn't expand beyond HM control as The Scattering ripppled through the universe.


I think it would have been interesting if Frank would have explored the Scattering moreso than just its impact on the BG and the civilizations of the Old Empire.

Maybe it would not have been a good idea, but I would have loved to have read Frank's take on just how wild and wacky humans could have developed away from the BG and the strictures of the BJ.

Sole Man

on destroying infitnie.

Postby Sole Man » 22 Nov 2008 16:19

Freakzilla wrote:HoD & CH:D are certainly about the survival of the Bene Gesserit and not all of humanity, but that is just a local event. I think of it as the end of the Old Empire. Humanity is not infinite then but as SC said no one force can eliminate them all and hopefully they are better prepared thanks to the GP to succede as long as the universe lasts.


If humanity is viewed as a single force, then you're wrong. Humanity can wipe out humanity, but each faction of humanity can be seen as a different force. Or the Universe itself can be seen as a single force, or Arrakis, or any number of things. Its all realtive; it all depends on one's definstion of "single force."

Man, that was repetive.

Anyway, I like how none of this has anything to do with the dangers of religion, ecology, super-beings, genetic lines, and unproven theories of sceince and philosphy. You know, all of the things I liked about DUNE.

(There are worms however...)