House Harkonnen prequal

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Laphtiya
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House Harkonnen prequal

Postby Laphtiya » 16 Oct 2008 07:47

Okay I've just started reading this tripe lol. It was okay until the No Ships and No fields came into it. So the Harkonnens invented it? I thought it came from the scattering. There excuse would be that they killed the guy who invented it and it was redescovered in the scattering.

The Bene Gesserit can turn invisible?...Oh sorry MAKE YOU not see them, ummm how do they do this? Through the force? :roll: On this note who else thought the part where Rabban was flying the NoShip and the Bene Gesserit "looked" up at him even though he was in a NoShip and they were albe to know he was there and make him crash.

Thought you couldnt see a no ship :D That was one of the BIG things about Teg yet the moron twins seem to have changed this yet again. Love to know what there excuse for this is.

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Postby inhuien » 16 Oct 2008 12:02

No tech was invented before the Scattering, Remember Teg and Co holding up in the Hark No-Chamber and the Ixians were also shown to have a No-room in GEoD.
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Postby Freakzilla » 16 Oct 2008 12:14

No-field technology was invented early in Leto II's reign and the Navigation Machine near the end, both by Ix.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 16 Oct 2008 12:39

Freakzilla wrote:No-field technology was invented early in Leto II's reign and the Navigation Machine near the end, both by Ix.


Unless we look at the UK edition of Heretics. There is that one passage that was different than the US version and seemed to hint that no-tech might have been invented much earlier, possibly by (or more likely for) the Harkonnen.

For those who haven't seen this RED is US edition only, BLUE is UK edition only, and black is from both texts.

"I agree it's primitive but it's also fascinating." Teg lifted his gaze to the
scrollwork on the nearby kitchen ceiling. The moment of decision had
arrived. Lucilla could not be depended upon to remain distracted much
longer. Teg shared her fascination, though. It was easy to lose yourself
in these marvels. The whole no-globe complex, some two hundred
meters in diameter, was a fossil preserved intact from the time of the
Tyrant
. It was remarkably primitive in all of its aspects, including the
machinery and the nullentropy bins at the core. Teg guessed it to be much
earlier than that of the Tyrant
and, if the stories about Dar-es-Balat were
to be trusted, this early technology represented a remarkable
achievement.


Now, FH does not indicate why Teg would think this, and I still believe that the Hack honestly didn't know about this passage that could be used to weakly justify what they did with no-tech in those pre-Dune books.
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Postby Freakzilla » 16 Oct 2008 12:42

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:No-field technology was invented early in Leto II's reign and the Navigation Machine near the end, both by Ix.


Unless we look at the UK edition of Heretics. There is that one passage that was different than the US version and seemed to hint that no-tech might have been invented much earlier, possibly by (or more likely for) the Harkonnen.

For those who haven't seen this RED is US edition only, BLUE is UK edition only, and black is from both texts.

"I agree it's primitive but it's also fascinating." Teg lifted his gaze to the
scrollwork on the nearby kitchen ceiling. The moment of decision had
arrived. Lucilla could not be depended upon to remain distracted much
longer. Teg shared her fascination, though. It was easy to lose yourself
in these marvels. The whole no-globe complex, some two hundred
meters in diameter, was a fossil preserved intact from the time of the
Tyrant
. It was remarkably primitive in all of its aspects, including the
machinery and the nullentropy bins at the core. Teg guessed it to be much
earlier than that of the Tyrant and, if the stories about Dar-es-Balat were
to be trusted, this early technology represented a remarkable
achievement.


I'd forgotten about that.

But no-ships didn't really become practical until the invention of the INM just before Leto's division.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 16 Oct 2008 12:52

What's the IMN? :oops:
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Postby Freakzilla » 16 Oct 2008 13:03

A Thing of Eternity wrote:What's the IMN? :oops:


INM: Ixian Navigation Machine.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 16 Oct 2008 14:37

Freakzilla wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:What's the IMN? :oops:


INM: Ixian Navigation Machine.


Hmm, I never really put much thought into whether or not the Guild were also utilizing no-tech. I'll have to do some re-reading.

EDIT: Hey, put into the context of this prequel, what kind of no-ship did the Harkonnens have? It wasn't a foldspace ship was it?
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Postby Freakzilla » 16 Oct 2008 14:44

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:What's the IMN? :oops:


INM: Ixian Navigation Machine.


Hmm, I never really put much thought into whether or not the Guild were also utilizing no-tech. I'll have to do some re-reading.

EDIT: Hey, put into the context of this prequel, what kind of no-ship did the Harkonnens have? It wasn't a foldspace ship was it?


No, they did their framing of Leto with it inside a Guild Highliner.

The beauty of the no-ship is that you could go anywhere you like and not even a Guild Navigator could trace you. It's what propelled The Scattering. You couldn't do that before the INM. You would have to rely on the Guild to go from system to system still... unless you snuck onto a Guild ship invisibly.
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Postby Freakzilla » 16 Oct 2008 14:46

As to the Guild having no-ships, I think it would be silly not to have a no-field installed on their existing ships, but who are they hiding from?
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 16 Oct 2008 14:58

Freakzilla wrote:As to the Guild having no-ships, I think it would be silly not to have a no-field installed on their existing ships, but who are they hiding from?


Yarr, that's pretty much what I was just thinking.
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Postby sparafucile » 16 Oct 2008 15:44

Even if it could be justified, that they'd try to incorporate it into their prequels bothers me more than the other inconsistencies I hear about. Not entirely sure why. :oops:

I guess I just have a fond spot for no-technology. That stuff's neato! :D

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Postby DuneFishUK » 16 Oct 2008 17:24

sparafucile wrote:Even if it could be justified, that they'd try to incorporate it into their prequels bothers me more than the other inconsistencies I hear about. Not entirely sure why. :oops:

I guess I just have a fond spot for no-technology. That stuff's neato! :D


The no chamber is fine - it's in GEOD and you can imagine a bulky prototype no-generator tucked deep in a mountain. That scans.. I even like it a bit.

Applying that technology to a one man stealth-ship that is apparently invisible to the naked eye.. less so. That's the source of my bother :x :P

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Postby SandChigger » 16 Oct 2008 20:58

Keep in mind that "much earlier than that of the Tyrant" can't be referring to anything like thousands of years. There's only about a five-hundred-year window toward the beginning of his reign in which Leto could have built Dar-es-Balat. (I've laid out the math before, not sure if it's repeated here on Jacurutu or not.)

I find it hard to believe that the REAL Ixians (as opposed to the idiots in the McDuniverse) would have had a lot of their people running around doing secret research. Someone on Ix would have know about the no-tech and it wouldn't have been lost.

Appropriation and abuse of something Frank came up with. Brian has to have Kevin try to outdo his father any way he can. This is just another example. :roll:
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Postby Laphtiya » 17 Oct 2008 02:48

Ah I forgot about that :D I remember now that No-chambers came around before the Tyrant, my bad, I am a big boy I can admit I was wrong :lol:

But what about the Bene Gesserit being able to make people appear invisible anf that whole with with Rabban? Looking up at him when he is in the no ship and causing him to crash.

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Postby SandChigger » 17 Oct 2008 10:11

Came around before the Tyrant only in the McDuniverse.

FH in GEoD wrote: Third and we believe that this is equal in portent to the actual discovery, there is the storehouse itself. The repository for these journals is an undoubted Ixian artifact of such primitive and yet marvelous construction that it is sure to throw new light on the historical epoch known as "The Scattering." As was to be expected, the storehouse was invisible. It was buried far deeper than myth and the Oral History had led us to expect and it emitted radiation and absorbed radiation to simulate the natural character of its surroundings, a mechanical mimesis which is not surprising of itself. What has surprised our engineers, however, is the way this was done with the most rudimentary and truly primitive mechanical skills.
I can see that some of you are as excited by this as we were.
We believe we are looking at the first Ixian Globe, the noroom from which all such devices evolved. If it is not actually the first, we believe it must be one of the first and embodying the same principles as the first.

It's interesting to look at the text of Heretics immediately after the passage quoted above:

When she spoke about it, Lucilla's voice took on a husky, whispering quality. "Surely, the Tyrant must have known about this place."
Teg's Mentat awareness had been immersed immediately in this suggestion. Why did the Tyrant permit Family Harkonnen to squander so much of their last remaining wealth on such an enterprise?
Perhaps for that very reason—to drain them.

Lucilla's comment alone could be consistent with a Dune prequel use of no-tech, but Teg's thoughts immediately afterwards preclude it.

Also, note that in the blue UK-only text quoted earlier, Teg is guessing that the Harkonnen no-complex is earlier than the Tyrant's at Dar-es-Balat; the matter is not presented as fact by the narrative text.

As for the Magical Mystery Tour Bene Gesserit, it's been said in other threads repeatedly: Kevin thinks Dune is Star Wars.

Btw, the GEoD quote above adds a bit more evidence on the side of no-ships being invisible to sight as well as radar and other sensors. As for them bringing down Rabban, the BG cannot see what the human eye cannot perceive. ;)
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Postby SandChigger » 17 Oct 2008 10:50

FH in Heretics wrote: Gammu, the planet was called now. Once, it had been known as Giedi Prime but someone named Gurney Halleck had changed that.

There's a line in the part with Teg & Lucilla in the no-globe about the Harkonnens "keeping their heads down" during Muad'Dib and Leto's reigns.

When was the Danian colonization, again? :?

(Yeah, it definitely hurts. Anyone who has read or is trying to read it feels [y]our pain! ;) )
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Postby Raveem » 17 Oct 2008 17:23

What piffle. No chambers could only be developed in response to something. That something was the phenomenon of the prescience of Paul and later Leto. What would be the point of a no chamber in absence of a potent prescient threat? Certainly, before Paul, no prescience of the Guild navigator type was of any (apparent) *strategic* value.

It would be like we made a machine to harvest monopoles on Earth right now when, in fact, monopoles are only going to be discovered 5,000 years from now on a star far away. That's how pointless a no chamber would be before Paul/Leto. Which just adds a further seal of stupidity on the cowpats that are the BH/KJA books.

Raveem.

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Postby SandChigger » 17 Oct 2008 19:10

And THAT is an excellent, killer point. :)
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Postby Rakis » 17 Oct 2008 23:09

Raveem wrote:What piffle. No chambers could only be developed in response to something. That something was the phenomenon of the prescience of Paul and later Leto. What would be the point of a no chamber in absence of a potent prescient threat? Certainly, before Paul, no prescience of the Guild navigator type was of any (apparent) *strategic* value.

It would be like we made a machine to harvest monopoles on Earth right now when, in fact, monopoles are only going to be discovered 5,000 years from now on a star far away. That's how pointless a no chamber would be before Paul/Leto. Which just adds a further seal of stupidity on the cowpats that are the BH/KJA books.

Raveem.


Yes, but KJA doesn't get Prescience...for him, it's being invisible,period...For him, prescience is just a complex part of the story that FH didn't explain well and if he could do that, hell, he could outdo FH and feel pretty good about himself...one more minute of his life...

Hey, KJA ! It's not just a fucking cloaking device !!! :roll:
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Postby SandChigger » 18 Oct 2008 01:05

Eyes closed, the Reverend Mother nodded. "The phenomenon of prescience is poorly understood even by its initiates," she said.

:wink:
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Postby Laphtiya » 21 Oct 2008 13:42

Rakis wrote:
Hey, KJA ! It's not just a fucking cloaking device !!! :roll:


Gotta love that, it does seem that KJA only thinks of this. The Guild didn't use their Prescience for anything other than navigation until Paul came along. I think the being invisible was a side effect of the prescience invisibility but KJA does seem to think its a cloaking device and nothing more.

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Postby Hunchback Jack » 21 Oct 2008 14:53

This was something I wasn't sure about when reading the prequels. My reading from the original series (many years ago) was that no-fields were primarily a defense against prescience.

Some of the passages in Heretics and Chapter House imply that they are "invisible" in some way (i.e. Teg alone is able to "see" them), but I always thought that meant undetectable by instruments. (Is there radar in the Dune universe?) I never thought for a second they were actually invisible to normal sight.

On the contrary, my recollection is that the no-ship in which Duncan was hiding was very much visible.

HBJ

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Postby Freakzilla » 21 Oct 2008 14:57

Hunchback Jack wrote:This was something I wasn't sure about when reading the prequels. My reading from the original series (many years ago) was that no-fields were primarily a defense against prescience.

Some of the passages in Heretics and Chapter House imply that they are "invisible" in some way (i.e. Teg alone is able to "see" them), but I always thought that meant undetectable by instruments. (Is there radar in the Dune universe?) I never thought for a second they were actually invisible to normal sight.

On the contrary, my recollection is that the no-ship in which Duncan was hiding was very much visible.

HBJ


The no-ship Duncan was inprisoned in was on standby power - invisible to prescience but visible to the naked eye. However, in combat they are both invisible to mechanical and physical sensors.

I can provide quotes if you require them.
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Postby Freakzilla » 21 Oct 2008 15:01

He could almost feel the flow of the ship's power, this giant enclosure cut out
of Time. Frictionless machinery to create a mimetic presence no instrument
could distinguish from natural background. Except for now when it was on
standby, shielded not from eyes but from prescience.

...

For brief moments when they disgorged troops, no-ships were visible and
vulnerable. He held elements of the entire force responsive to his comboard and
responsibility was heavy.

...

He lifted off the Flat and repositioned in full invisibility. Now, only the
comlinks gave defenders a clue to his position and that was masked by decoy
relays.


~Chapterhouse Dune
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