Jessica of Dune Predictions!

[Sole Man]

That's it! We should hire a Ninja to kill them both!

[Freakzilla]

That's it! We should hire a Ninja to kill them both!

Pirates would be better.

[TheDukester]

Dinosaur assassins!

[sparafucile]

Ok. First, please correct me if I'm wrong re: Paul of Dune, since I haven't read it, or any dates I may have messed up.

So, as Simon pointed out to me at DN, apparently Shaddam IV was in Paul of Dune. I can accept this, since from my understanding, PoD takes place in the first half of Paul's reign. However, FH and truDune tells us he died in 10202, 6 years after Paul took the throne in 10196.

Simon also said that KJA hinted at the fact that Shaddam would be returning in JoD. And since JoD is supposedly supposed to take part after DM, we have a new inconsistency:

1) Depending on the era covered by PoD, Shaddam may have no right to be present in at least the latter of the book.
2) Shaddam DEFINITELY does not belong in JoD as his death was in 10202, 5 years prior to the birth of Leto II in 10207.

Now assuming that the hacks twain (god, I love that term! ) use Irulan to explain that inconsistency by having her doctor the records (there, my prediction, contributing to the original purpose of the thread ), I can't help but wonder about something. For some reason, I seem to remember Paul allowing Irulan to go offworld for the funeral of her father. Was this scene in DM or CoD or am I thinking of the CoD miniseries which can't really be considered canon (as much as I enjoyed it)? If it was in the books, they'd be hard pressed to explain how Shaddam could be alive and Irulan go to his funeral years after he supposedly died.

Oh wait, no they won't. They'll just ignore it.

Still, I'd be curious to hear any opinions or answers regarding this.

[Freakzilla]

I don't recall Irulan leaving to do anything but meet with the conspirators.

Shaddam died between DM and CoD, I believe.

[DuneFishUK]

Yes Shaddam is a character in PoD

IIRC the last "Emperor Muad'dib" section of POD takes place in 10198 - so Shaddam being alive doesn't contradict the 10202 date.

Seeing as the foreshadowing dual storyline concept seems to have gone down well with the shills (well - at least it breaks up the book a bit) I wouldn't be surprised if we had a repeat performance in JoD. One part in the DM-COD present, and the other flashing back to the POD-DM era.

Shaddam was obviously poisoned by Harkonnen whale fur hidden since the Butlerian Jihad by Muadru ninja dinosaur robots.... or some shit.

[Freakzilla]

Shaddam was obviously poisoned by Harkonnen whale fur hidden since the Butlerian Jihad by Muadru ninja dinosaur robots.... or some shit.

Surely you mean ultra-Muadru ninja dinosaur robots?

[sparafucile]

Shaddam died between DM and CoD, I believe.

Unless his death was something fixed/changed by FH after Dune, he died between Dune and DM (10202, Leto II born in 10207), cause my copy of Dune gives that death date.

Yes Shaddam is a character in PoD

IIRC the last "Emperor Muad'dib" section of POD takes place in 10198 - so Shaddam being alive doesn't contradict the 10202 date.

Yeah, I wasn't sure what years were covered in PoD, so it's not surprising they'd try to bring him into the mix.

[SimonH]

Now that PoD's hit the shelves, the hacks twain are no doubt working on pushing out JoD. What are your predictions for this book?

- Now that the Tleilaxu have seen first hand that memories can be restored, they will milk this to the extreme by bringing back old enemies: Piter? Shaddam? Endless possibilities!
- Some pointless sideplot involving Jacurutu.

Any other thoughts?

I predict that it will sell less than PoD

let's hope those sales figures continue to slide.

[TheDukester]

I predict that it will sell less than PoD

I'm almost sure it will, if for no other reason than the title.

Paul is the one Dune figure that even the casual fan will remember. He'll also be familiar in an "oh-now-I-remember" way to those who read Dune 20 or 30 years ago. He's the Luke Skywalker of this particular drama.

Jessica, though ... different story. Not nearly the central figure that Paul is, and probably a mystery to anyone not already a Dune fan.

(Also, I think TOR will be less willing to do much marketing, considering the likely tight economic climate and what appears to be some sluggish sales figures for PoD).

[SandChigger]

I thought we've been over this before?

Shaddam is definitely alive at the beginning of DM:

"Very good, m'Lord." Stilgar produced another folder, cleared his throat. "The Qizarate's report on Salusa Secundus. Irulan's father has been putting his legions through landing maneuvers."

Irulan found something of interest in the palm of her left hand. A pulse throbbed at her neck.

"Irulan," Paul asked, "do you persist in arguing that your father's one legion is nothing more than a toy?"

"What could he do with only one legion?" she asked. She stared at him out of slitted eyes.

"He could get himself killed," Chani said.

Paul nodded. "And I'd be blamed."

"I know a few commanders in the Jihad," Alia said, "who'd pounce if they learned of this."

"But it's only his police force!" Irulan protested.

"Then they have no need for landing maneuvers," Paul said. "I suggest that your next little note to your father contain a frank and direct discussion of my views about his delicate position."

She lowered her gaze. "Yes, m'Lord. I hope that will be the end of it. My father would make a good martyr."

"Mmmmmm," Paul said. "My sister wouldn't send a message to those commanders she mentioned unless I ordered it."

"An attack on my father carries dangers other than the obvious military ones," Irulan said. "People are beginning to look back on his reign with a certain nostalgia."

I don't remember there being any mention anywhere in the story texts (NOTE WELL!) of when he dies.

I do remember discussing the unreliability of this following passage when Kevin first blawgged about correcting Frank's mistakes and filling in the gaps:

Appendix IV: The Almanak en-Ashraf (Selected Excerpts of the Noble Houses)

SHADDAM IV (10,134-10,202)
The Padishah Emperor, 81st of his line (House Corrino) to occupy the Golden Lion Throne, reigned from 10,156 (date his father, Elrood IX, succumbed to chaumurky) until replaced by the 10,196 Regency set up in the name of his eldest daughter, Irulan. His reign is noted chiefly for the Arrakis Revolt, blamed by many historians on Shaddam IV's dalliance with Court functions and the pomp of office. The ranks of Bursegs were doubled in the first sixteen years of his reign. Appropriations for Sardaukar training went down steadily in the final thirty years before the Arrakis Revolt. He had five daughters (Irulan, Chalice, Wensicia, Josifa, and Rugi) and no legal sons. Four of the daughters accompanied him into retirement. His wife, Anirul, a Bene Gesserit of Hidden Rank, died in 10,176.

The dates in this whole section are suspect. Whether FH just flubbed them or whether it was intentional, who knows.

The point, though, to remember is this: ALL OF THE APPENDICES (EVERY ONE!!!) ARE IN-UNIVERSE DOCUMENTS, WRITTEN BY SOMEONE IN THE DUNIVERSE.

Like it or not, everything in them has to be compared against what is written in the narrative parts of the novels. (This is true of the chapter epigraphs as well; they are in-universe texts.)

[sparafucile]

I thought we've been over this before?

Shaddam is definitely alive at the beginning of DM:

"Very good, m'Lord." Stilgar produced another folder, cleared his throat. "The Qizarate's report on Salusa Secundus. Irulan's father has been putting his legions through landing maneuvers."

Irulan found something of interest in the palm of her left hand. A pulse throbbed at her neck.

"Irulan," Paul asked, "do you persist in arguing that your father's one legion is nothing more than a toy?"

"What could he do with only one legion?" she asked. She stared at him out of slitted eyes.

"He could get himself killed," Chani said.

Paul nodded. "And I'd be blamed."

"I know a few commanders in the Jihad," Alia said, "who'd pounce if they learned of this."

"But it's only his police force!" Irulan protested.

"Then they have no need for landing maneuvers," Paul said. "I suggest that your next little note to your father contain a frank and direct discussion of my views about his delicate position."

She lowered her gaze. "Yes, m'Lord. I hope that will be the end of it. My father would make a good martyr."

"Mmmmmm," Paul said. "My sister wouldn't send a message to those commanders she mentioned unless I ordered it."

"An attack on my father carries dangers other than the obvious military ones," Irulan said. "People are beginning to look back on his reign with a certain nostalgia."

I don't remember there being any mention anywhere in the story texts (NOTE WELL!) of when he dies.

I do remember discussing the unreliability of this following passage when Kevin first blawgged about correcting Frank's mistakes and filling in the gaps:

Appendix IV: The Almanak en-Ashraf (Selected Excerpts of the Noble Houses)

SHADDAM IV (10,134-10,202)
The Padishah Emperor, 81st of his line (House Corrino) to occupy the Golden Lion Throne, reigned from 10,156 (date his father, Elrood IX, succumbed to chaumurky) until replaced by the 10,196 Regency set up in the name of his eldest daughter, Irulan. His reign is noted chiefly for the Arrakis Revolt, blamed by many historians on Shaddam IV's dalliance with Court functions and the pomp of office. The ranks of Bursegs were doubled in the first sixteen years of his reign. Appropriations for Sardaukar training went down steadily in the final thirty years before the Arrakis Revolt. He had five daughters (Irulan, Chalice, Wensicia, Josifa, and Rugi) and no legal sons. Four of the daughters accompanied him into retirement. His wife, Anirul, a Bene Gesserit of Hidden Rank, died in 10,176.

The dates in this whole section are suspect. Whether FH just flubbed them or whether it was intentional, who knows.

The point, though, to remember is this: ALL OF THE APPENDICES (EVERY ONE!!!) ARE IN-UNIVERSE DOCUMENTS, WRITTEN BY SOMEONE IN THE DUNIVERSE.

Like it or not, everything in them has to be compared against what is written in the narrative parts of the novels. (This is true of the chapter epigraphs as well; they are in-universe texts.)

That makes sense. Thanks. I figured it was either an inconsistency or something that FH corrected himself on. Oh well. I still have this image of Irulan going offworld for her father's funeral.. must've been the miniseries.

Sorry if that was a long worn-out topic

[Freakzilla]

He only spent a year or two dead for tax purposes.

[Lundse]

Like it or not, everything in them has to be compared against what is written in the narrative parts of the novels. (This is true of the chapter epigraphs as well; they are in-universe texts.)

And, according to Arnoldo, everything in the narrative parts is suspect too, because an unborn Leto II might be Fucking with peoples memory via. telepathy, so we cannot really trust eg. Paul's internal thoughts.

This is the actual defender of the hack twain's consistency (Byron hardly tries anymore), and the excuses he is reduced to. Argumentation is fun

[SandChigger]

And, according to Arnoldo, everything in the narrative parts is suspect too, because an unborn Leto II might be Fucking with peoples memory via. telepathy, so we cannot really trust eg. Paul's internal thoughts.

Oh for fuck's sake.

I kinda wondered if something like this was eventually coming down the sewer pipe from the Supreme Anal Orifices of Dune. If you've read The Butlerian Jihad, think back to how it begins with "Princess Irulan writes:" and they leave it unclear as to whether that means just the first chapter or the entire book.

The Appendices of Dune, the epigraphs, passages like the minority report excerpt at the end of GEoD, etc., are in-universe documents, but not the narrative sections. Characters can make mistakes or lie to others or even themselves, but if you admit the possibility that the omniscient, third-person narrator can do the same, you end up unable to know anything, so what the fuck is the point of even bothering with trying to understand the books at all? May as well just read them "for entertainment only" and move on to the next thing.

Maybe that's the conclusion the shitheads want us to come to? Another expression of their ultimate contempt for those of us who really love the originals like they claim they do.

Fuck 'em. (And fuck you, too, arnoldo.)

[Ghost]

Chani didn't ate normal spice in Leto and Ghani pregnancy...she got some anormal spice... Amal with fine traces of ultra spice.

[DuneFishUK]

I thought we've been over this before?

Shaddam is definitely alive at the beginning of DM:

"Very good, m'Lord." Stilgar produced another folder, cleared his throat. "The Qizarate's report on Salusa Secundus. Irulan's father has been putting his legions through landing maneuvers."

Irulan found something of interest in the palm of her left hand. A pulse throbbed at her neck.

"Irulan," Paul asked, "do you persist in arguing that your father's one legion is nothing more than a toy?"

"What could he do with only one legion?" she asked. She stared at him out of slitted eyes.

"He could get himself killed," Chani said.

Paul nodded. "And I'd be blamed."

"I know a few commanders in the Jihad," Alia said, "who'd pounce if they learned of this."

"But it's only his police force!" Irulan protested.

"Then they have no need for landing maneuvers," Paul said. "I suggest that your next little note to your father contain a frank and direct discussion of my views about his delicate position."

She lowered her gaze. "Yes, m'Lord. I hope that will be the end of it. My father would make a good martyr."

"Mmmmmm," Paul said. "My sister wouldn't send a message to those commanders she mentioned unless I ordered it."

"An attack on my father carries dangers other than the obvious military ones," Irulan said. "People are beginning to look back on his reign with a certain nostalgia."

I don't remember there being any mention anywhere in the story texts (NOTE WELL!) of when he dies.

I do remember discussing the unreliability of this following passage when Kevin first blawgged about correcting Frank's mistakes and filling in the gaps:

Appendix IV: The Almanak en-Ashraf (Selected Excerpts of the Noble Houses)

SHADDAM IV (10,134-10,202)
The Padishah Emperor, 81st of his line (House Corrino) to occupy the Golden Lion Throne, reigned from 10,156 (date his father, Elrood IX, succumbed to chaumurky) until replaced by the 10,196 Regency set up in the name of his eldest daughter, Irulan. His reign is noted chiefly for the Arrakis Revolt, blamed by many historians on Shaddam IV's dalliance with Court functions and the pomp of office. The ranks of Bursegs were doubled in the first sixteen years of his reign. Appropriations for Sardaukar training went down steadily in the final thirty years before the Arrakis Revolt. He had five daughters (Irulan, Chalice, Wensicia, Josifa, and Rugi) and no legal sons. Four of the daughters accompanied him into retirement. His wife, Anirul, a Bene Gesserit of Hidden Rank, died in 10,176.

The dates in this whole section are suspect. Whether FH just flubbed them or whether it was intentional, who knows.

The point, though, to remember is this: ALL OF THE APPENDICES (EVERY ONE!!!) ARE IN-UNIVERSE DOCUMENTS, WRITTEN BY SOMEONE IN THE DUNIVERSE.

Like it or not, everything in them has to be compared against what is written in the narrative parts of the novels. (This is true of the chapter epigraphs as well; they are in-universe texts.)

That makes sense. Thanks. I figured it was either an inconsistency or something that FH corrected himself on. Oh well. I still have this image of Irulan going offworld for her father's funeral.. must've been the miniseries.

Sorry if that was a long worn-out topic

The dunenovels.com timeline has Shaddam dying in 10212... but they reference Dune as the source.

[Lisan Al-Gaib]

The dunenovels.com timeline has Shaddam dying in 10212... but they reference Dune as the source.

I can believe FH made a mistake in the dates related to Shaddam (I already made the calculations myself, and the informations dont stand together without correction), that is not improbable or "heretic". Really, guys, we already know Shaddam was alive in DM and died before CoD, so, what is the point after all?

[SandChigger]

Actually, it kinda matters whether he died during DM ... or after DM/before CoD.

If the former, they shouldn't write about it, except after the fact, having characters remember or the narrator describe what happened. (Is that clear? I mean they shouldn't write about it in the present, describing it as it happens.)

If the latter, they can write about it in Irulan of Dune (that would be perfect, no? Irulan's reaction to the death of the father whose love she always wanted... ) and turn yet something else into shit.

Like...like...having flying monkeys chew off Shaddam's nipples in his sleep, causing him to die from blood loss.

[SandChigger]

Saw this over on Dumb Novels. Might be relevant, seeing as it comes more or less straight from the Horse's Ass (via someone who spends time with Byron up in there):

And from what KJA said at that [SC: Dayton] signing it sounded like Shaddam would be featured in the next two (This is my interpretation of his words, he may have been using Shaddam as an example of the sort of antagonist who would try to gain from Paul's walk into the desert). I'd say this is probably going to piss some OHers off, but hey, let's face it, what doesn't?

"The next two" would be Jessica of Dune and Irulan of Dune, of course. (Gawd, let's hope my prescience isn't kicking in again, eh! )

(And yes, Simon, EVERYTHING just pisses us off. No reason for it, it's the way we are, we're that kind of people. Tool.)

[Tleszer]

Like...like...having flying monkeys chew off Shaddam's nipples in his sleep, causing him to die from blood loss.

That's some strange shit there Chig. Did you have a vision of these flying monkeys hovering around DuneNovels or something?

[TheDukester]

I'd say this is probably going to piss some OHers off, but hey, let's face it, what doesn't?

Jesus wept ...

A douchebag and a suck-up. Way to go, Simon. That's a pretty tough Daily Double to pull off.

[Lisan Al-Gaib]

I'd say this is probably going to piss some OHers off, but hey, let's face it, what doesn't?

What doesn't? A good writing, self-consistence and consistence with the originals book. Simple, hum?

[SandChigger]

Like...like...having flying monkeys chew off Shaddam's nipples in his sleep, causing him to die from blood loss.

That's some strange shit there Chig. Did you have a vision of these flying monkeys hovering around DuneNovels or something?

Oh, pot and kettle me, will you, Mister? After some of the things YOU've posted here?!



Hell if I know where this shit comes from. (Do you, with yours?)

There's kinda like this constant thing with nipples floating around me.

A few years back a friend had bypass surgery and they used an artery from his chest that supplies blood to the area around one of his nipples; told him it might look a little bluish for a while. So naturally we discussed things like him auditioning for Enterprise (just starting to show over here then) as The Alien With Blue Nipples.

I blame the flying monkeys on whatever network used to show The Wizard of Oz once every year as their Sunday night movie. (NBC maybe?) We watched it EVERY YEAR.

I never had a chance. I grew up unclean....

[Tleszer]

No offense meant Chig. Last time I checked I wasn't black, but yeah my mind is pretty strange. I just don't let too many people know it. They may suspect it but they can never know for certain.

Hey, look over there! Flying blue nipples!


*runs away in the hopes that Dr. Manhattan doesn't vaporize him*



EDIT: Is it strange that usually when I hit the submit button I say aloud "Submit, Captain?"