Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

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ULFsurfer
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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby ULFsurfer » 03 Sep 2012 11:26

A different author whose self-praise now gets dragged out into the light:

http://www.thebookseller.com/news/ellor ... ogy.html-0

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ULFsurfer
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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby ULFsurfer » 17 Oct 2012 12:54

Not exactly "praising", but I just got this spam mail from Amazon:

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Only like much further down on the list do I see any FH books..
:mad:

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Jodorowsky's Acolyte
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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 18 Oct 2012 02:35

Admittedly, I think that KJA's Star Wars Expanded Universe Novels (such as the Jedi Academy Trilogy and Darksaber) are his best works. He sucks pretty much in the rest of his stuff (I've yet to read his original fiction), but he did add some hefty contributions to the SW novels which are still implemented in by other authors for the SW EU (such as his character, Kyp Durron, the unstable Force orphan and future Jedi dick). The only Dune prequel which I think shows a decent effort is House Atreides, because the qualities of the prequels dwindle when you get to the sequels and finally toward the BJ books. For a self-proported die hard Dune/Frank Herbert fan, he's been pretty lazy in his efforts to contribute high quality sequels/prequels which respect the Dune canon. He probably has dominated BH in terms of style and content, but truly I think BH and KJA were pretty much made for each other. In one interview I've read, it seems like BH and KJA excite each other with really basic ideas which they think are cool and sophisticated, and therefore can stand on their own with minimal writing work. They are like John and Yoko right now, except only one of them likes to think about acorns as a pastime (KJA as Yoko), while the other really doesn't want to shake himself out of his complacency (Brian not being Lennon).
'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky

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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby Serkanner » 18 Oct 2012 03:33

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:They are like John and Yoko right now, except only one of them likes to think about acorns as a pastime (KJA as Yoko), while the other really doesn't want to shake himself out of his complacency (Brian not being Lennon).


I am truly amazed how you manage to say such ridiculous things time and again.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby Naïve mind » 18 Oct 2012 03:41

^ We're online, anonymous. If there's any place we should be able to associate freely and speak without weighing our every word, it's here. And even nonsense can be amusing.

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:The only Dune prequel which I think shows a decent effort is House Atreides, because the qualities of the prequels dwindle when you get to the sequels and finally toward the BJ books.


That's a good warning--I was only able to stomach about half of "House Atreides" before I had to give up on it. If that one is actually the best of the KJA books, I have no interest in reading them, even for a laugh.

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lotek
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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby lotek » 18 Oct 2012 04:47

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:In one interview I've read, it seems like BH and KJA excite each other with really basic ideas which they think are cool and sophisticated, and therefore can stand on their own with minimal writing work.


Try every other interview. They call this "brainstorming". I say it's disgusting.

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:They are like John and Yoko right now, except only one of them likes to think about acorns as a pastime (KJA as Yoko), while the other really doesn't want to shake himself out of his complacency (Brian not being Lennon).


C'mon now, you don't really mean that do you ?
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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby Serkanner » 18 Oct 2012 12:06

Naïve mind wrote:^ We're online, anonymous. If there's any place we should be able to associate freely and speak without weighing our every word, it's here. And even nonsense can be amusing.



Yeah, but when every single post contains this crap it become tiresome.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby Omphalos » 18 Oct 2012 12:44

Serkanner wrote:
Naïve mind wrote:^ We're online, anonymous. If there's any place we should be able to associate freely and speak without weighing our every word, it's here. And even nonsense can be amusing.



Yeah, but when every single post contains this crap it become tiresome.


Ditto.

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Jodorowsky's Acolyte
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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 18 Oct 2012 15:07

Serkanner wrote:
Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:They are like John and Yoko right now, except only one of them likes to think about acorns as a pastime (KJA as Yoko), while the other really doesn't want to shake himself out of his complacency (Brian not being Lennon).


I am truly amazed how you manage to say such ridiculous things time and again.


I'M SORRY!!!! Good God. Are my posts really that retarded? I've been trying not to be too ridiculous my posts. I was just putting references in from films I've seen about Lennon, such as The Two of Us and Lennon Naked. The result didn't make sense, and I'm sorry for it. I won't compare John and Yoko to BH/KJA again. (Just so you know, in Lennon Naked, Yoko did like to think about acorns. Not that it has anything to do with KJA's writing process, I admit). It's very difficult to be able to discern if the things I write are too ridiculous for others to stomach, even though I have tried to be write my thoughts as moderately as possible. I've never personally attacked any other users, nor have I written posts that are malicious. I'll avoid typing confusing-bizarre last sentences like this one, if that's what you want. I've no intention of irritating other Jacurutu users with ridiculous sentences and topics in my posts, so I'll moderate myself.
'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky

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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby Freakzilla » 18 Oct 2012 15:22

Just take it easy, man.
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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby Ampoliros » 19 Oct 2012 00:04

The best thing KJA ever worked on was the Tales of the Jedi series, where he basically wrote the dialogue and that was it.

Guess what the worst part of Tales of the Jedi is.


House Atreides takes a great backstory from Dune and turns it into yet another "superweapon" "ultraconspiracy" that it never had to be.

That would be the bullfight. A bullfight is already symbolic of man vs unstoppable force. You do NOT need to make it into man vs ULTRACOW. That sounds fucking silly*. You do not need to make it OMG ULTRACOW ON STEROIDS = assassination attempt.

This
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vs This:

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*Actually, "Fucking Silly" seems like the perfect way to describe the new books.
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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby Naïve mind » 19 Oct 2012 00:26

Ampoliros wrote:That would be the bullfight. A bullfight is already symbolic of man vs unstoppable force. You do NOT need to make it into man vs ULTRACOW. That sounds fucking silly*. You do not need to make it OMG ULTRACOW ON STEROIDS = assassination attempt.


I never got that far, but I also felt they'd mischaracterized the Old Duke, basically turning him into a curmudgeonly, kindly father figure with a slightly cynical attitude towards women. It's quite unclear why Jessica would wish such a man to have died when his son was born.

But it seems that House Atreides was consciously, if not openly, written as a Young Adult novel. The characters are teens, or pre-teens; exploring a universe that's exciting, funny and mostly friendly. It also seems to be written at the peak of the Harry Potter hype, which may explain that choice somewhat, from a commercial point of view.

Why someone would choose to set a young adult novel in the Dune universe (which deals with genocides, political necessities and bloodlust) is rather unclear, but it's a poor idea.

Why someone would choose to include a description of a child watching his parents being murdered, and a woman being raped in such a novel (described in such a flat, casual way that it's chilling for all the wrong reasons) is utterly beyond me, and reflective of deeply poor taste. This is basically when I stopped reading.

Then again, publishers are not charitable organisations, and it seems the Dune-revival series has been spectacularly successful; maybe I'm just a prude.

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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby lotek » 19 Oct 2012 06:21

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:They are like John and Yoko right now, except only one of them likes to think about acorns as a pastime (KJA as Yoko), while the other really doesn't want to shake himself out of his complacency (Brian not being Lennon).


I am truly amazed how you manage to say such ridiculous things time and again.


I'M SORRY!!!! Good God. Are my posts really that retarded? I've been trying not to be too ridiculous my posts. I was just putting references in from films I've seen about Lennon, such as The Two of Us and Lennon Naked. The result didn't make sense, and I'm sorry for it. I won't compare John and Yoko to BH/KJA again. (Just so you know, in Lennon Naked, Yoko did like to think about acorns. Not that it has anything to do with KJA's writing process, I admit). It's very difficult to be able to discern if the things I write are too ridiculous for others to stomach, even though I have tried to be write my thoughts as moderately as possible. I've never personally attacked any other users, nor have I written posts that are malicious. I'll avoid typing confusing-bizarre last sentences like this one, if that's what you want. I've no intention of irritating other Jacurutu users with ridiculous sentences and topics in my posts, so I'll moderate myself.


just try re-reading your own posts, it works for me ;)
Spice is the worm's gonads.

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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby Serkanner » 19 Oct 2012 17:48

Naïve mind wrote:
But it seems that House Atreides was consciously, if not openly, written as a Young Adult novel.


This sentence hits my balls in way I do not want them to be hit. ... or, even worse, grazed. Please elaborate.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby Naïve mind » 20 Oct 2012 01:11

Serkanner wrote:This sentence hits my balls in way I do not want them to be hit. ... or, even worse, grazed. Please elaborate.


I assure you, I had no idea anyone on this board would feel injury to their testicles (let alone any other body part) because of criticism for a Dune Prequel. I may be misreading some sarcasm, I suppose :)

To be honest, it was just the impression I had. It is written from the perspective of a teenager (two teenagers even, Duncan and Leto), the language is very simple, and it follows the age-old 'avenge your parents on the way to adulthood' theme(*).

The fact that they contracted a Star Wars tie-in novel writer to pen it suggests the same; I'm sure that Star Wars novels are read by people who are adults now, but they have to remain accessible to children.

And to be honest, I don't mind if someone writes "Dune for Kids" if that's their honest intent. Most of the novel's flaws in plotting, consistency and characterization would become perfectly tolerable in such a case. But I am probably completely wrong about their intent, as Dune:HA is not something I'd feel comfortable giving to a kid to read.

(*) Dune, of course, follows that pattern too, but what you get out of it by reading it at age ten is very different from what you get out of it at age twenty, and again different from what you read at age thirty.

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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby Ampoliros » 20 Oct 2012 01:24

I think you are giving credit to KJA for writing a Young Adult Novel rather than criticizing him for writing an Adult novel at the Young Adult level.
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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby Serkanner » 20 Oct 2012 05:54

Ampoliros wrote:I think you are giving credit to KJA for writing a Young Adult Novel rather than criticizing him for writing an Adult novel at the Young Adult level.


That is why. Thanks.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby Naïve mind » 20 Oct 2012 10:27

Ampoliros wrote:I think you are giving credit to KJA for writing a Young Adult Novel rather than criticizing him for writing an Adult novel at the Young Adult level.


Well, I don't think the Dune Universe is one principally suited to children's fiction, I think that writing for children is no excuse for writing flat, unemotional characters, and I found some of the scenes far too grotesque. If it's written as a children's book, it fails in several areas. If it's written for adults, it fails in several more.

I just offered a speculation that might explain the publishers' decision to go with KJA in the first place.

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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby Serkanner » 20 Oct 2012 16:55

Don't take my words the wrong way. The smallest hint that the two morons might have any idea what they are doing (or have done) makes me (literally) feel sick.

They didn't plan to write young adult novels at all ... their level of writing never exceeds the young adult level, and it is still bad. Harry Potter ... that is good young adult writing (I am not a fan).
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 22 Oct 2012 02:45

Freakzilla wrote:Just take it easy, man.


lotek wrote:just try re-reading your own posts, it works for me ;)


Thanks, Freak and lotek, for achoring me down. I find myself needing peer-support from time to time. It's a good thing I've got super-Feydakin like you two to help me out.

I definitely need to reread my posts, even though my main time is dominated by Grad school work. I'm reading carefully right now, so that's a start. :)

Serkanner wrote:Don't take my words the wrong way. The smallest hint that the two morons might have any idea what they are doing (or have done) makes me (literally) feel sick.

They didn't plan to write young adult novels at all ... their level of writing never exceeds the young adult level, and it is still bad. Harry Potter ... that is good young adult writing (I am not a fan).


No Dune fanatic could accuse BH/KJA for knowing what they are doing. Still, even though their Dune novels are heavily adult in content, their writing style resembles that of a bad children's book author. Avi, notable children's author, is very similar to KJA, in my opinion, because of two important factors: they both fizzle out quickly when it comes to story development, and their dialogue choices can be very cliche. Avi's Poppy books are the best examples of Avi's premature narrative abilities (I only read them because my Children's Literature professor found them charming. I didn't much agree with her when I read the hedgehog's dialogue with the titular female mouse in the first book, such as "Push the puke switch and duck" :roll: ).

What I mean to say is that it's sad that KJA's writing fallacies resemble those of an easily fizzled children's author. KJA and Brian still have a lot to learn about developing their narrative abilities, especially if they are trying to continue the legacy of one of the best sci-fi universes ever conceived. And on that observation, I'll say no more. :wink:
'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky

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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby Serkanner » 22 Oct 2012 02:47

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:What I mean to say is that it's sad that KJA's writing fallacies resemble those of an easily fizzled children's author.


I fully agree.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby D Pope » 22 Oct 2012 20:06

Amp, isn't that second picture missing a pair of legs?
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby SandRider » 22 Oct 2012 22:12

really ?
it was a six-legged bull what done-in the Old Duke ?

Ultrabull ?

bet it breathed fire, too, dinnit ?
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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby lotek » 23 Oct 2012 04:41

It actually uses a fire fart attack, it is ultra scorching.
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Re: Praise for Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson

Postby D Pope » 23 Oct 2012 10:41

SandRider wrote:really ?
it was a six-legged bull what done-in the Old Duke ?

Ultrabull ?

bet it breathed fire, too, dinnit ?

and I think it had scales as well, not sure



lotek wrote:It actually uses a fire fart attack, it is ultra scorching.

Have you been experimenting with voice recognition stuff for posts?
:P
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos


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