Jehanne Butler???

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Postby TheDukester » 26 Sep 2008 12:55

I'm glad these sorts of things are being caught. The haughty dismissal of the DE — one of my favorite books, ever — was one of the original reasons I began to loathe the HLP and their hired-gun hack.

Brain's alleged concordance (remember, much like FH's "notes," no one has ever actually seen this thing) is worthy of a few threads on its own. Given the rate of errors in the prequels/sequels, I'd be surprised if someone hadn't taken Bri-Bri aside at some point and said, "Hey, no offense, but we're just not going to use that thing any more."
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Postby The Sons of Idaho » 26 Sep 2008 13:20

dunaddict wrote:The dutch cover for 'Hunters of Dune': Click and shiver


Is that for real?
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Postby dunaddict » 26 Sep 2008 13:26

Yes. I wish it wasn't. Like I said, I own one.

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Postby Serkanner » 26 Sep 2008 14:06

dunaddict wrote:
Baraka Bryan wrote:
Ampoliros wrote:the worst part of Road to Dune is seeing Frank Herbert's name mentioned as a co-author with KJA


fuck that's a sacrelige eh :?


HA!!! If you think that's sacrilege, then what do you call this? The dutch cover for 'Hunters of Dune': Click and shiver

Thankfully, they fixed it in later prints. But I own this one... :cry:


Why do you buy/read a translation in the first place? The writing is bad enough by itself even without the need of a bad translation.
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Postby Ampoliros » 26 Sep 2008 14:09

Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Baraka Bryan wrote:
dunaddict wrote:I don't know if this is old stuff around here, but I found something interesting in my (Dutch) copy of House Atreides.

I quote from the english version:

"Thousands of years of careful breeding have brought us closer than ever before to our goal. For ninety generations, a plan begun even before the Butlerian warriors led us to freedom from the thinking machines, we of the Sisterhood have planned to create our own weapon. Our own superbeing who will bridge space and time with his mind."

my Dutch copy reads: (translated of course):

"Thousands of years of careful breeding have brought us closer than ever before to our goal. For ninety generations, a plan begun even before Jehanne Butler and her brothers led us to freedom from the thinking machines, we of the Sisterhood have planned to create our own weapon. Our own superbeing who will bridge space and time with his mind."

Looks like they cut the Jehanna reference in the english version. Maybe they got sued by NcNelly and changed her name to Serena in their subsequent prequels?


very interesting..

also, in their legends books, doesn't the sisterhood start after the BJ out of the rossack witches or whatever? so this is yet another internal contradiction on their part.

they'd probably use the excuse that the quote in H:A is an in-universe one and subject to historical distortion.

of course, they use that for almost everything they write... sorry guys but just cuz something is in-universe doesn't mean it's guaranteed to be distorted :P


Depending on which of those was the original that might be one more piece of evidence that they were in fact using the DE as inspiration for the Legends series despite their bullshit claims otherwise. Maybe they put that Jehanne reference in the first finished draft, sent out copies, then realized that they wanted to pretend they didn't use te DE as inspiriation for their upcoming Legends series and revised it to read Butlerian warriors? Hmmm...

We know about the differences in FH's books between the UK and here, also probably cause by sening out copies and then making revisions and forgetting to send the revisions to all the publishers. Hmm...


Gotcha! Even from the start, the DE always have been their inspiration! I would like to know the answer for that...Could someone post that at DN? I would like to see the face of the admin about that...

Liers....


C'mon, it would be deleted as soon as Byron sees it. Anyway I think we'd need evidence from a few other foreign translations that also cite Jehanne Butler. Its possible that the Dutch translator was looking through references while translating and inserted this by mistake. I don't believe this is what happened, i'm just being devil's advocate.

Is McNeilly still living? Would be nice for us if we could get him into the OH community. Though it seems like with his joint statement he's entered into some kind of non-interference clause.
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 26 Sep 2008 14:28

He's dead. I can't remember where exactly I found this, but I was poking around one day and I did find on-line posts from him pretty much saying that he had a fair bit of anger towards the HLP for fucking him over. What I'd love more than anything is to find out what the rough plot was that he and FH came up with for the Butlerian Jihad so I could throw it in Byron's face as proof that KJABH fucked up the basic concept, but that seems un-likely. (or find the sample chapters)
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Postby SandChigger » 26 Sep 2008 18:19

Ampoliros as already pointed this out, but you have to remember to be very careful when dealing with translations, because translators get a little "happy" sometimes.

There was an Italian guy, I think (Ramaoth or something like that), over on DN back in the day who quoted from "The Terminology" in his Italian edition of Dune that specifically mentioned Samuel Butler in its entry on the Jihad...something which has never appeared in any English edition AFAIK.
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Postby Omphalos » 26 Sep 2008 18:41

Ramoah. He is still around.

Another thing to remember is that even the various English versions may differ. Take a look at the books that whats-his-name from Arrakeen compared.

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Postby dunaddict » 26 Sep 2008 18:44

Creative translator? Possible... but improbable if you ask me. Unless the translator had some sort of Butlerian Jihad obsession AND read the Dune Encyclopedia. :?

Is there anyone here who can compare this sentence in the US/UK/any language editions of House Atreides?

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Postby SandChigger » 26 Sep 2008 20:59

dunaddict wrote:Creative translator? Possible... but improbable if you ask me.

Why improbable? Do you have some information on the Dutch translator(s) that leads to this conclusion?
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Postby Lisan Al-Gaib » 27 Sep 2008 18:26

SandChigger wrote:
dunaddict wrote:Creative translator? Possible... but improbable if you ask me.

Why improbable? Do you have some information on the Dutch translator(s) that leads to this conclusion?


I don't think that could be improbable. The guy who translated DUNE to Brazilian Portuguese is a huge fan of science fiction (he is already a science fiction writer and A. Clarke friend). Therefore, could be very probable that the guy that undertook the work to translate the DUNE books to dutch could be a DUNE fan.
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Postby dunaddict » 28 Sep 2008 09:52

I didn't say it was impossible, did I? :)
It just strikes me as odd that someone who gets paid to translate, would randomly change the text. :?

But yes, the dutch translator (Vincent van der Linden), is also a SciFi/Fantasy author, so he's likely a Dune fan as well.

Next week, I may be able to check out a copy of the UK-version.
Last edited by dunaddict on 28 Sep 2008 16:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Serkanner » 28 Sep 2008 14:03

dunaddict wrote:I didn't say it was impossible, did I? :)
It just strikes me as odd that someone who gets paid to translate, would randomly change the text. :?

But yes, the dutch translator (Vincent van der Linden), is also a SciFi/Fantasy author, so he's likely a Dune fan as well.

Next week, I may be able to check out a copy of UK-version.


Perhaps we should contact Vincent and see if he remembers, or can verify why he used Jehanne instead of Serena. I would laugh my ass off if it can be proven that the original manuscript he was send to translate actually mentioned Jehanne.

EDIT: I just let my pdf reader search for any reference to Serena, Butler and Jehanne in the English version of House Atreides but neither Serena nor Jehanne come up as results. Not surprisingly the word "Butlerian" has far more hits in this book alone then in Frank's chronicles ... typical.

Are you sure about this reference in the Dutch House Atreides book?
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Postby dunaddict » 28 Sep 2008 16:34

Serkanner wrote:I just let my pdf reader search for any reference to Serena, Butler and Jehanne in the English version of House Atreides but neither Serena nor Jehanne come up as results.


Does this pdf contain the US or UK version?

Serkanner wrote:Are you sure about this reference in the Dutch House Atreides book?


Yes: "Voorspel tot Duin: Eerste boek - Huis Atreides" (Eerste druk, November 1999). Page 82
I can mail you a scan of the page in question if you really want it. :D

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Postby SandChigger » 28 Sep 2008 17:14

The first appearance of "Serena Butler" in my file versions of the books comes in House Corrino:

KJA & BH in House Corrino wrote: Irulan held up her filmbook. "Have you read Lives of the Heroes of the Jihad?" She acted much older than her years, seemed hungry to learn. It was said that the Princess harbored aspirations of being a writer one day.
"Of course. Reverend Mother Mohiam was my teacher. She made me memorize the whole thing. There is a statue of Raquella Berto-Anirul on the grounds of the Mother School."
Irulan raised her eyebrows. "Serena Butler was always my favorite." Jessica sat on the sun-warmed stone bench. They watched children run by, kicking a red ball in front of them. The Princess put away her filmbook and changed the subject. "You must find Kaitain quite different from Caladan."


(This is also the book in which the Guild Navigator on the lost Heighliner moans about an "ancient enemy". :roll: I like to think of HC as a bridge between the House books and the subsequent Legends; it's too obvious they were setting things up here.)

(As for the translator thing, my comment was based on the unnecessary additions I've seen a few Japanese translators make in non-Dune-related books. It does happen, as the Italian example we mentioned above should have illustrated.)
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Postby Serkanner » 29 Sep 2008 03:50

dunaddict wrote:
Serkanner wrote:I just let my pdf reader search for any reference to Serena, Butler and Jehanne in the English version of House Atreides but neither Serena nor Jehanne come up as results.


Does this pdf contain the US or UK version?

Serkanner wrote:Are you sure about this reference in the Dutch House Atreides book?


Yes: "Voorspel tot Duin: Eerste boek - Huis Atreides" (Eerste druk, November 1999). Page 82
I can mail you a scan of the page in question if you really want it. :D


The pdf doesn't state whether its the US or UK version, but it shouldn't really make a difference.

I asked if you were sure because at the time I only ran House Atreides through the search function. Jehanne Butler isn't mentioned in any of the three House books and Serena is only mentioned once ( see sandchigger's post )

No need to scan the page ... I have the Dutch translation myself as well :wink:

Dutch: "Duizenden jaren zorgvuldig telen hebben ons dichter dan ooit bij ons doel gebracht. Negentig generaties geleden werd er begonnen aan een plan, zelfs nog voor Jehanne Butler en haar broers ons de bevrijding brachten van de denkende machines, een plan om ons eigen wapen te smeden. Ons eigen superwezen dat met zijn geest ruimte en tijd zal overspannen."

English: "Thousands of years of careful breeding have brought us closer than ever before to our goal. For ninety generations, a plan begun even before the Butlerian warriors led us to freedom from the thinking machines, we of the Sisterhood have planned to create our own weapon. Our own superbeing who will bridge space and time with his mind." ( Bantam mass market edition August 2000 )

I think the most logical explanation is that Vincent indeed received a pre-release copy of House Atreides and faithfully translated it. before the English version was released the hacks were told they screwed up and the "Jehanne Butler and her brothers" reference was changed into "Butlerian warriors". Of course they forgot to tell the translators as well.

Why I think Vincent didn't screw up is because the rest of the translation is spot on ... just this one, not unimportant detail is different.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Postby Mr. Teg » 29 Sep 2008 09:42

Serkanner wrote:
dunaddict wrote:
Serkanner wrote:I just let my pdf reader search for any reference to Serena, Butler and Jehanne in the English version of House Atreides but neither Serena nor Jehanne come up as results.


Does this pdf contain the US or UK version?

Serkanner wrote:Are you sure about this reference in the Dutch House Atreides book?


Yes: "Voorspel tot Duin: Eerste boek - Huis Atreides" (Eerste druk, November 1999). Page 82
I can mail you a scan of the page in question if you really want it. :D


The pdf doesn't state whether its the US or UK version, but it shouldn't really make a difference.

I asked if you were sure because at the time I only ran House Atreides through the search function. Jehanne Butler isn't mentioned in any of the three House books and Serena is only mentioned once ( see sandchigger's post )

No need to scan the page ... I have the Dutch translation myself as well :wink:

Dutch: "Duizenden jaren zorgvuldig telen hebben ons dichter dan ooit bij ons doel gebracht. Negentig generaties geleden werd er begonnen aan een plan, zelfs nog voor Jehanne Butler en haar broers ons de bevrijding brachten van de denkende machines, een plan om ons eigen wapen te smeden. Ons eigen superwezen dat met zijn geest ruimte en tijd zal overspannen."

English: "Thousands of years of careful breeding have brought us closer than ever before to our goal. For ninety generations, a plan begun even before the Butlerian warriors led us to freedom from the thinking machines, we of the Sisterhood have planned to create our own weapon. Our own superbeing who will bridge space and time with his mind." ( Bantam mass market edition August 2000 )

I think the most logical explanation is that Vincent indeed received a pre-release copy of House Atreides and faithfully translated it. before the English version was released the hacks were told they screwed up and the "Jehanne Butler and her brothers" reference was changed into "Butlerian warriors". Of course they forgot to tell the translators as well.

Why I think Vincent didn't screw up is because the rest of the translation is spot on ... just this one, not unimportant detail is different.


Seriously, do you think you can track down the translator?
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Postby Serkanner » 29 Sep 2008 09:55

Mr. Teg wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
dunaddict wrote:
Serkanner wrote:I just let my pdf reader search for any reference to Serena, Butler and Jehanne in the English version of House Atreides but neither Serena nor Jehanne come up as results.


Does this pdf contain the US or UK version?

Serkanner wrote:Are you sure about this reference in the Dutch House Atreides book?


Yes: "Voorspel tot Duin: Eerste boek - Huis Atreides" (Eerste druk, November 1999). Page 82
I can mail you a scan of the page in question if you really want it. :D


The pdf doesn't state whether its the US or UK version, but it shouldn't really make a difference.

I asked if you were sure because at the time I only ran House Atreides through the search function. Jehanne Butler isn't mentioned in any of the three House books and Serena is only mentioned once ( see sandchigger's post )

No need to scan the page ... I have the Dutch translation myself as well :wink:

Dutch: "Duizenden jaren zorgvuldig telen hebben ons dichter dan ooit bij ons doel gebracht. Negentig generaties geleden werd er begonnen aan een plan, zelfs nog voor Jehanne Butler en haar broers ons de bevrijding brachten van de denkende machines, een plan om ons eigen wapen te smeden. Ons eigen superwezen dat met zijn geest ruimte en tijd zal overspannen."

English: "Thousands of years of careful breeding have brought us closer than ever before to our goal. For ninety generations, a plan begun even before the Butlerian warriors led us to freedom from the thinking machines, we of the Sisterhood have planned to create our own weapon. Our own superbeing who will bridge space and time with his mind." ( Bantam mass market edition August 2000 )

I think the most logical explanation is that Vincent indeed received a pre-release copy of House Atreides and faithfully translated it. before the English version was released the hacks were told they screwed up and the "Jehanne Butler and her brothers" reference was changed into "Butlerian warriors". Of course they forgot to tell the translators as well.

Why I think Vincent didn't screw up is because the rest of the translation is spot on ... just this one, not unimportant detail is different.


Seriously, do you think you can track down the translator?


I could give it a shot.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Postby SandChigger » 29 Sep 2008 11:33

Please do.

I would have tried to contact the Japanese translator by now...except he's dead.

Reminds me, though, I've been meaning to contact Torkos about his timeline. That entry (with ??? for the date) placing the bringing of sandtrout to Arrakis BEFORE the entry mentioning the Greek king Agamemnon needs to be corrected now given the new info on the Muadru. :roll:

I want to know if he put it there on his own or based on something Kevin had told him. ;)
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 29 Sep 2008 13:51

I would be delighted to find out that the translator was faithful, I'd love some red handed proof of them lifting ideas from the DE.
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Postby dunaddict » 03 Oct 2008 14:45

Ok, I checked out House Atreides - UK edition. No mention of Jehanne Butler. Maybe the US and UK editions are the same. Ok, who wants to spend some money on a German or French copy? :D
Serkanner, any luck with your quest?

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Postby SandChigger » 03 Oct 2008 22:16

Continuing in theme from another thread:

"Jehanne Butler" was the creation of Willis E. McNelly, compiler of The Dune Encyclopedia. If we can find that some early K&B manuscript did refer to her, it would be proof that the Hacks have used the DE as a reference in their own "work".

From: wmcne...@fullerton.edu (Willis McNelly)
Subject: Re: Butlerian Jihad&J. Butler:Bishop.
Date: 1999/12/21

I am not sure that FH meant any paticular "Butler." But he was certainly referring to the Luddite anti-machine uprising in Britain at the beginning of the industrial revolution.

As to the story of the aborted female fetus in the DE which brought about the Butlerian Jihad, that creation was entirely my own, as I recall, and I named her "Jehanne" after Joan of Arc - the warrior saint.

I had proposed to FH that he and I collaborate on a prequel to the Dune saga called "Prequel to Dune: the Butlerian Jehad" or some similar title. FH and I had discussed writing it together and he agreed with my general plot outline, completed first chapter, and so on but his untimely death prevented us from continuing. He had been living in the LA area at the time and we often discussed it by phone, but I have no written notes from him about it, unfortunately. The prequel would have followed in general terms the story as outlined in the DE - sketched in my notes - which I still have - and written in final published form by one of my colleagues at Cal State.

(alt.fan.dune message)

Another possibility to consider is that FH made notes of those conversations that McNelly mentions, which K&B found and incorporated into their own crap before realizing their true origin.

:?:
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Postby Rakis » 03 Oct 2008 23:59

Another possibility to consider is that FH made notes of those conversations that McNelly mentions, which K&B found and incorporated into their own crap before realizing their true origin.


Yeah, sounds about right...although i wouldn't be surprise if McNelly's name was mentionned and the hacks just never made any mention of it... :roll:
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Postby Mr. Teg » 04 Oct 2008 00:03

SandChigger wrote:Continuing in theme from another thread:

"Jehanne Butler" was the creation of Willis E. McNelly, compiler of The Dune Encyclopedia. If we can find that some early K&B manuscript did refer to her, it would be proof that the Hacks have used the DE as a reference in their own "work".

From: wmcne...@fullerton.edu (Willis McNelly)
Subject: Re: Butlerian Jihad&J. Butler:Bishop.
Date: 1999/12/21

I am not sure that FH meant any paticular "Butler." But he was certainly referring to the Luddite anti-machine uprising in Britain at the beginning of the industrial revolution.

As to the story of the aborted female fetus in the DE which brought about the Butlerian Jihad, that creation was entirely my own, as I recall, and I named her "Jehanne" after Joan of Arc - the warrior saint.

I had proposed to FH that he and I collaborate on a prequel to the Dune saga called "Prequel to Dune: the Butlerian Jehad" or some similar title. FH and I had discussed writing it together and he agreed with my general plot outline, completed first chapter, and so on but his untimely death prevented us from continuing. He had been living in the LA area at the time and we often discussed it by phone, but I have no written notes from him about it, unfortunately. The prequel would have followed in general terms the story as outlined in the DE - sketched in my notes - which I still have - and written in final published form by one of my colleagues at Cal State.

(alt.fan.dune message)

Another possibility to consider is that FH made notes of those conversations that McNelly mentions, which K&B found and incorporated into their own crap before realizing their true origin.

:?:


:D
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Postby Lisan Al-Gaib » 04 Oct 2008 00:22

Sorry, but what is Fullerton archives?
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