Jehanne Butler???

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Dr. Why
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Jehanne Butler???

Postby Dr. Why » 23 May 2008 18:35

One question, I have always had was Jehanne Butler's name. I know it was Jehanne in the Dune Encyclopedia, and I can't recall if in the original six it stated her name. But my question is why change the name to Serena for the prequels?
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Hyppo

Postby Hyppo » 23 May 2008 18:51

The original novels never stated the first name. And Jehanne and Serena are not meant to be the same individuals. It helps to think of them as alternate universe characters that have nothing to do with each other.

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Postby orald » 23 May 2008 18:52

No name is ever given in the original six AFAIK.

Why change? Well, people more knowledgable of the writing processes of P&B(learn yer initials- Pinky and the Brain/Brian :wink: ) would have it that they wanted to diffirentiate themselves off of ol' McNielly(sp?) and seem original, so they basically robbed the DE but changed some names to make it "their own".
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Postby orald » 23 May 2008 18:55

Hypatia wrote:It helps to think of them as alternate universe characters that have nothing to do with each other.

:roll:

No, it helps if we attach a bomb to Kevin's car and send him to BiG Sky Daddy to get bitch-slapped for eternity.
Ain't that right, SC? :twisted:
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Postby Hyppo » 23 May 2008 18:56

That won't unwrite what's already published. :?

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Postby Dr. Why » 23 May 2008 18:57

orald wrote:No name is ever given in the original six AFAIK.

Why change? Well, people more knowledgable of the writing processes of P&B(learn yer initials- Pinky and the Brain/Brian :wink: ) would have it that they wanted to diffirentiate themselves off of ol' McNielly(sp?) and seem original, so they basically robbed the DE but changed some names to make it "their own".


Ah, makes sense, though serena just never jived with me. I never really got passed the beginning of P&B's BJ, though I have been recently thinking of getting Road to Dune, does anyone recommend it?
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Postby orald » 23 May 2008 19:08

Hypatia wrote:That won't unwrite what's already published. :?

No one can change the past, dear, but we can get revenge.

Dr wrote:I have been recently thinking of getting Road to Dune, does anyone recommend it?

Where's Byron when you need him? :lol:

I'm not sure, but I don't think people praise it. It might just be lazy(cheap) ol' me, but I wouldn't waste my money on Brian's stuff.
I think I remember people saying it's mostly some thin drivel with no real new material. Again, SC, Omph, TMB etc might know more.
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Postby Omphalos » 23 May 2008 19:12

Hypatia wrote:The original novels never stated the first name. And Jehanne and Serena are not meant to be the same individuals. It helps to think of them as alternate universe characters that have nothing to do with each other.


Helps what? To accept Serena? Bullshit.

Hyppo

Postby Hyppo » 23 May 2008 19:15

Omphalos wrote:
Hypatia wrote:The original novels never stated the first name. And Jehanne and Serena are not meant to be the same individuals. It helps to think of them as alternate universe characters that have nothing to do with each other.

Helps what? To accept Serena? Bullshit.

Where did I say anything about accepting Serena? It just helps to keep the two characters separate to avoid confusion about the "plot."

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Postby Omphalos » 23 May 2008 19:17

Hypatia wrote:
Omphalos wrote:
Hypatia wrote:The original novels never stated the first name. And Jehanne and Serena are not meant to be the same individuals. It helps to think of them as alternate universe characters that have nothing to do with each other.

Helps what? To accept Serena? Bullshit.

Where did I say anything about accepting Serena? It just helps to keep the two characters separate to avoid confusion about the "plot."


I don't think I implied or said that you said either way, Sue. Thus the question mark. But if it helps you to separate the plot of the preek novels, go ahead and do what ever you like. :roll:

Hyppo

Postby Hyppo » 23 May 2008 19:25

I've already said on numerous forums that I would have preferred to see a novel dealing with Jehanne Butler. I find her story as related in the Dune Encyclopedia quite interesting.

Serena's story was a predictable snooze.

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Postby orald » 23 May 2008 19:44

I'd rather have God Leto, Lord of Gehenna! *bows*
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Postby SandChigger » 23 May 2008 22:36

Ahem....

Dr Why, I have The Road to Dune but haven't read everything in it. There's some interesting content, like the excluded chapters from Dune and the alternative endings of Messiah, and the Frank Herbert correspondence...so you might want to pick up the paperback version, just to have those things.

But, honestly, a good half or more of the book is Kevin and Brian's crap. I haven't bothered reading "Spice Planet" because without inclusion of the material written by Frank Herbert it's virtually worthless and of no interest. (The hubris of the two of them, assuming that people would enjoy their interpretation and implementation of FH's outline is unbelievable. That basically holds true for all of the new books, though, doesn't it?)

Now...

The "alternative universe" concept is a "help" to two types of people:

(1) Those who want to discredit the work or contributions of someone else in order to promote (and $ell) their own; and
(2) Those who are too namby-pamby to take a definite stance and call bullshit bullshit.
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Postby Dr. Why » 23 May 2008 23:11

SandChigger wrote:Ahem....

Dr Why, I have The Road to Dune but haven't read everything in it. There's some interesting content, like the excluded chapters from Dune and the alternative endings of Messiah, and the Frank Herbert correspondence...so you might want to pick up the paperback version, just to have those things.

But, honestly, a good half or more of the book is Kevin and Brian's crap. I haven't bothered reading "Spice Planet" because without inclusion of the material written by Frank Herbert it's virtually worthless and of no interest. (The hubris of the two of them, assuming that people would enjoy their interpretation and implementation of FH's outline is unbelievable. That basically holds true for all of the new books, though, doesn't it?)

Now...

The "alternative universe" concept is a "help" to two types of people:

(1) Those who want to discredit the work or contributions of someone else in order to promote (and $ell) their own; and
(2) Those who are too namby-pamby to take a definite stance and call bullshit bullshit.



Thanks for the advice. I might check it out, though I usually try to stay pretty far away from their work, all of thier previous books I have read have been from the library.
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Postby SandChigger » 23 May 2008 23:48

That's probably the wisest course of action. ;)

I meant to add earlier that the main impression I got from the book was that it was just a cheap way of flogging off their own stuff by giving people a few tidbits of real FH material. (Their four shorts and version of "Spice Planet" have nothing to do with the history and work leading up to Dune and belong more in a book entitled The Road to Dumb.)

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Last edited by SandChigger on 24 May 2008 00:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Freakzilla » 23 May 2008 23:53

I think RtD is worth it for the FH bits. I found the letters between FH and publishers very interesting. I liked the alternate ending for DM too. Never read the P&tB parts, don't plan to.
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Postby chanilover » 24 May 2008 14:00

I wasn't that impressed by Road to Dune, the only good things about it are the deleted Dune chapters. After reading the Prequels and dshit, it was such a refreshing change to read Frank Herbert's words again, they make the Comb-Over's books look even more crap.

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Postby dunaddict » 26 Sep 2008 08:49

I don't know if this is old stuff around here, but I found something interesting in my (Dutch) copy of House Atreides.

I quote from the english version:

"Thousands of years of careful breeding have brought us closer than ever before to our goal. For ninety generations, a plan begun even before the Butlerian warriors led us to freedom from the thinking machines, we of the Sisterhood have planned to create our own weapon. Our own superbeing who will bridge space and time with his mind."

my Dutch copy reads: (translated of course):

"Thousands of years of careful breeding have brought us closer than ever before to our goal. For ninety generations, a plan begun even before Jehanne Butler and her brothers led us to freedom from the thinking machines, we of the Sisterhood have planned to create our own weapon. Our own superbeing who will bridge space and time with his mind."

Looks like they cut the Jehanna reference in the english version. Maybe they got sued by NcNelly and changed her name to Serena in their subsequent prequels?

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Postby dunaddict » 26 Sep 2008 10:18

You're right. Even the revised version is inconsistent with their own writing! :lol:
Here's another Butlerian Jihad 'Historical Distortion':

From 'House Atreides':

"Tio Holtzman was one of the most productive Ixian inventors on record. He often went on creative binges, locking himself up for months on end so that he could work without interruption. Sometimes upon emerging he required hospitalization, and there were constant concerns over his sanity and well-being. Holtzman died young -- barely past thirty Standard Years -- but the results of his efforts changed the galaxy forever.
-Biographical Capsules, an Imperial filmbook
"

From the 'Butlerian Jihad':

"A clean-shaven man with shoulder-length gray hair, Holtzman appeared to be in his late middle years. His hands and fingernails were clean, his clothing impeccable and ornamented with stylish designs and badges."

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Postby Ampoliros » 26 Sep 2008 10:35

the worst part of Road to Dune is seeing Frank Herbert's name mentioned as a co-author with KJA
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 26 Sep 2008 12:05

Baraka Bryan wrote:
dunaddict wrote:I don't know if this is old stuff around here, but I found something interesting in my (Dutch) copy of House Atreides.

I quote from the english version:

"Thousands of years of careful breeding have brought us closer than ever before to our goal. For ninety generations, a plan begun even before the Butlerian warriors led us to freedom from the thinking machines, we of the Sisterhood have planned to create our own weapon. Our own superbeing who will bridge space and time with his mind."

my Dutch copy reads: (translated of course):

"Thousands of years of careful breeding have brought us closer than ever before to our goal. For ninety generations, a plan begun even before Jehanne Butler and her brothers led us to freedom from the thinking machines, we of the Sisterhood have planned to create our own weapon. Our own superbeing who will bridge space and time with his mind."

Looks like they cut the Jehanna reference in the english version. Maybe they got sued by NcNelly and changed her name to Serena in their subsequent prequels?


very interesting..

also, in their legends books, doesn't the sisterhood start after the BJ out of the rossack witches or whatever? so this is yet another internal contradiction on their part.

they'd probably use the excuse that the quote in H:A is an in-universe one and subject to historical distortion.

of course, they use that for almost everything they write... sorry guys but just cuz something is in-universe doesn't mean it's guaranteed to be distorted :P


Depending on which of those was the original that might be one more piece of evidence that they were in fact using the DE as inspiration for the Legends series despite their bullshit claims otherwise. Maybe they put that Jehanne reference in the first finished draft, sent out copies, then realized that they wanted to pretend they didn't use te DE as inspiriation for their upcoming Legends series and revised it to read Butlerian warriors? Hmmm...

We know about the differences in FH's books between the UK and here, also probably cause by sening out copies and then making revisions and forgetting to send the revisions to all the publishers. Hmm...
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Postby The Sons of Idaho » 26 Sep 2008 12:17

dunaddict wrote:Jehanne Butler and her brothers


That is surpising. I always thought they ignored the DE story completely.

Dr. Why wrote:I never really got passed the beginning of P&B's BJ

And that's just gross.
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Postby Lisan Al-Gaib » 26 Sep 2008 12:23

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Baraka Bryan wrote:
dunaddict wrote:I don't know if this is old stuff around here, but I found something interesting in my (Dutch) copy of House Atreides.

I quote from the english version:

"Thousands of years of careful breeding have brought us closer than ever before to our goal. For ninety generations, a plan begun even before the Butlerian warriors led us to freedom from the thinking machines, we of the Sisterhood have planned to create our own weapon. Our own superbeing who will bridge space and time with his mind."

my Dutch copy reads: (translated of course):

"Thousands of years of careful breeding have brought us closer than ever before to our goal. For ninety generations, a plan begun even before Jehanne Butler and her brothers led us to freedom from the thinking machines, we of the Sisterhood have planned to create our own weapon. Our own superbeing who will bridge space and time with his mind."

Looks like they cut the Jehanna reference in the english version. Maybe they got sued by NcNelly and changed her name to Serena in their subsequent prequels?


very interesting..

also, in their legends books, doesn't the sisterhood start after the BJ out of the rossack witches or whatever? so this is yet another internal contradiction on their part.

they'd probably use the excuse that the quote in H:A is an in-universe one and subject to historical distortion.

of course, they use that for almost everything they write... sorry guys but just cuz something is in-universe doesn't mean it's guaranteed to be distorted :P


Depending on which of those was the original that might be one more piece of evidence that they were in fact using the DE as inspiration for the Legends series despite their bullshit claims otherwise. Maybe they put that Jehanne reference in the first finished draft, sent out copies, then realized that they wanted to pretend they didn't use te DE as inspiriation for their upcoming Legends series and revised it to read Butlerian warriors? Hmmm...

We know about the differences in FH's books between the UK and here, also probably cause by sening out copies and then making revisions and forgetting to send the revisions to all the publishers. Hmm...


Gotcha! Even from the start, the DE always have been their inspiration! I would like to know the answer for that...Could someone post that at DN? I would like to see the face of the admin about that...

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Postby dunaddict » 26 Sep 2008 12:34

Baraka Bryan wrote:
Ampoliros wrote:the worst part of Road to Dune is seeing Frank Herbert's name mentioned as a co-author with KJA


fuck that's a sacrelige eh :?


HA!!! If you think that's sacrilege, then what do you call this? The dutch cover for 'Hunters of Dune': Click and shiver

Thankfully, they fixed it in later prints. But I own this one... :cry:

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Postby dunaddict » 26 Sep 2008 12:51

Gotcha! Even from the start, the DE always have been their inspiration! I would like to know the answer for that...Could someone post that at DN? I would like to see the face of the admin about that...

Liers....


There is another explanation; Lazy Brian copy/pasted dune-facts from the Encyclopedia into that Concordance he wrote and didn't bother to check which facts originated from the original novels and which didn't.

When the duo finished writing 'House Atreides' someone finally spotted the mistake, but they'd already sent out copies to most publishers, as ATOE suggested.