"New Canon" inconsistencies....

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dunaddict
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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby dunaddict » 14 Jul 2009 14:01

On the first page of "The Machine Crusade":
As one delves into history — such ancient, chaotic time! — the more facts become fluid, the stories contradictory. Across the ocean of time and fallible memory, true heroes metamorphose into archetypes; battles grow more significant than they actually were. Legends and truth are difficult to reconcile.

As the First Official Historian of the Jihad, I must set down this record as best I can, relying upon oral traditions and fragmentary documents preserved for a hundred centuries. Which is more accurate — a carefully documented history such as mine, or an accumulation of myths and folktales?
I, Naam the Elder, must write honestly, even if it invites the wrath of my superiors.

Yes, that's right, everything about the Butlerian Jihad in the original Dune novels is just 'an accumulation of myths and folktales'.

Fortunately "The Battle of Corrin" begin with this:
The gravest error a thinking person can make is to believe that one particular version of history is absolute fact. History is recorded by a series of observers, none of whom is impartial. The facts are distorted by sheer passage of time and—especially in the case of the Butlerian Jihad—thousands of years of humanity’s dark ages, deliberate misrepresentations by religious sects, and the inevitable corruption that comes from an accumulation of careless mistakes. The wise person, then, views history as a set of lessons to be learned, choices and ramifications to be considered and discussed, and mistakes that should never again be made.

—PRINCESS IRULAN, preface to the History of the Butlerian Jihad

I wonder what the author(s) want to say here. Could it mean the entire "Legends of Dune" is just a distorted In-Universe history-book by this Naam the Elder guy? That would explain a lot of contradictions :D

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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby dunaddict » 16 Jul 2009 05:51

Another clue in Dune that the Baron's obesity is not the result of a disease. The Baron looks at Rabban, his nephew:

The man who stood outside the doorfield of the Baron's bedchamber was low built, gross of face and body, with the Harkonnen paternal line's narrow-set
eyes and bulge of shoulders. There was yet some rigidity in his fat, but it was obvious to the eye that he'd come one day to the portable suspensors for carrying his excess weight.


It runs in the family.

EDIT: My mistake, I see this was already mentioned.

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Contradictions and Inconsistancies

Postby loremaster » 07 Aug 2009 17:34

Hilarious comments guys.

Has anyone kept a list of the "bigger" problems with the new books, conceptual not problems with writing?

Starting with:

"Every character has had their iq lowered by 50 pts (examples folks?)"

"TBJ was men vs men, not men vs machines"

"the machines they had back then were thinking machines anyway, not terminators with faces"

"Even if they were terminators, (they arent) Omnius and erasmus are clearly shit, even skynet is more convincing. AI does not mean personality"

"Omnius fled and and managed to englobe humanity"

"That Marty and Daniel are infact omnius and erasmus"

"that the golden path was apparently a failure?"

"Normacle"

"Waterworms"

"Uber Kwizatz Haderach"

"Ultra- spice"

"Stealing and fucking up the chronology of Franks ideas, such as the first no-room, or synthetic spice, or the revelation of tleilaxu religion"

"Piter died, then came back, and has been gholad so many times"

"Gaius Helen Mohiam is Jessicas mother (using the codename Tanidia Nerus, dontchaknow?)"

If any mods wanna transplant this, or think we should start a new thread with it, obviously feel free?
The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!

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Re: Contradictions and Inconsistancies

Postby Schu » 09 Aug 2009 23:56

Let's not forget the good old "Everyone has teg-amnesia" bunger.

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Re: Contradictions and Inconsistancies

Postby Freakzilla » 10 Aug 2009 07:48

We've already got a '"New Canon" Inconsistancies...' topic stickied, can't we merge this with that? :?
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Re: Contradictions and Inconsistancies

Postby TheDukester » 10 Aug 2009 09:38

Please do.
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Re: Contradictions and Inconsistancies

Postby Omphalos » 10 Aug 2009 13:10

Freakzilla wrote:We've already got a '"New Canon" Inconsistancies...' topic stickied, can't we merge this with that? :?


Take charge, boss! Merge away!

I'm only paying attention with half my brain, as usual, but don't we have some other threads around here that could be merged with that?

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Re: Contradictions and Inconsistancies

Postby Freakzilla » 10 Aug 2009 13:26

Omphalos wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:We've already got a '"New Canon" Inconsistancies...' topic stickied, can't we merge this with that? :?


Take charge, boss! Merge away!

I'm only paying attention with half my brain, as usual, but don't we have some other threads around here that could be merged with that?


^^^ I already did it, see the topic title? ^^^

Half-paying attention for sure!

:lol: :P
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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby Freakzilla » 10 Aug 2009 22:23

"The Jihad was a kind of mass insanity," he muttered.
~Leto II, CoD

It's only mass insanity if the machines you're destroying AREN'T trying to kill you.

:crazy:
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Re: Contradictions and Inconsistancies

Postby Omphalos » 10 Aug 2009 23:03

Freakzilla wrote:
Omphalos wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:We've already got a '"New Canon" Inconsistancies...' topic stickied, can't we merge this with that? :?


Take charge, boss! Merge away!

I'm only paying attention with half my brain, as usual, but don't we have some other threads around here that could be merged with that?


^^^ I already did it, see the topic title? ^^^

Half-paying attention for sure!

:lol: :P


I really need to quit my job so I can dedicate myself to a righteous cause.

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Re: Contradictions and Inconsistancies

Postby Freakzilla » 11 Aug 2009 11:50

Omphalos wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Omphalos wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:We've already got a '"New Canon" Inconsistancies...' topic stickied, can't we merge this with that? :?


Take charge, boss! Merge away!

I'm only paying attention with half my brain, as usual, but don't we have some other threads around here that could be merged with that?


^^^ I already did it, see the topic title? ^^^

Half-paying attention for sure!

:lol: :P


I really need to quit my job so I can dedicate myself to a righteous cause.


I'd love to do this full-time.
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Samarkan
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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby Samarkan » 12 Aug 2009 06:50

Jessica is made Duke Leto's concubine and Dr. Yueh joins the Atreides
before Paul's death. However, more than fifteen years later, in Dune,
Jessica says that she has only known Yueh for six years


let me channel Kelvin's soul for a second. I'll just pick up this hammer and bonk myself over the head a few times... there. okay. this is what Kelvin would say: "WELL UHHHHHHHH..... CALMADAN CASTEL WUS A VARY VARY BIG CASTEL AND UHH...... THAY NEVER RAN INTO EACH OTHER FUR UHHHHHHH... NINE YEARS CUS JASSICA GOT LOST EVEN THO SHE LEFT A TRALE OF BREADCRUMS. THE CASTEL WUS THAT BIG."

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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby Ampoliros » 12 Aug 2009 12:14

IT SEZ IN DUN 2 THAT TEH CASTEL WAZ AZ BIG AS LIKE 10 CASTELS TAPPED TOOGATHER TO MAKE 1 BIG CASTEL. KJA SED IN A ENTERVEIW THAT IS WAS LIKE THE SIZE OF A DEATH STAR AND A STAR DESTOYRWE HAVING SECKS
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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby Tleszer » 12 Aug 2009 12:23

:doh: :lol:
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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby TheDukester » 12 Aug 2009 12:23

If really pressed, I'm sure TheKJA would throw Fuzzy under the bus and put all the blame on his alleged concordance.

Remember: Kevin J. Anderson is never wrong!
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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby SandChigger » 12 Aug 2009 13:00

Hey, Fuzzy may be about ready to throw himself under the bus.

He's just had a "complicated" day. :lol:
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby Nekhrun » 12 Aug 2009 13:20

SandChigger wrote:Hey, Fuzzy may be about ready to throw himself under the bus.

He's just had a "complicated" day. :lol:

Phuzzy Pherbert and the Complicated Day! Byron can finally write his Children's novel.
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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby SadisticCynic » 12 Aug 2009 13:40

Um... Tleszer are you ok? According to Samarkan you're currently channeling Kevin! :)
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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby Tleszer » 12 Aug 2009 14:08

SadisticCynic wrote:Um... Tleszer are you ok? According to Samarkan you're currently channeling Kevin! :)

Well, I guess that would explain this: Image
DUNE, as interpreted by a blue man with a green tushie

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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby Samarkan » 15 Aug 2009 05:09

SadisticCynic wrote:Um... Tleszer are you ok? According to Samarkan you're currently channeling Kevin! :)

Tleszer must be immune since he types in complete sentences with punctuation. :lol:

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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby Krazy Kwisatz » 15 Feb 2010 19:06

A few of these really get my goat.

"Omnius fled and and managed to englobe humanity" Considering that no-ships can go anywhere, to any galaxy - how many galaxies are there in the universe? - this makes little sense.

"That Marty and Daniel are infact omnius and erasmus" It's obvious they were supposed to be super face dancers, even to a 13-year old kid reading CD for the first time.

"Normacle" "Uber Kwizatz Haderach" "Ultra- spice" These are all variations on a theme. He can't measure up to Frank by coming up with his own original ideas and concepts, so he does it by coming up with "ultra-versions" of everything. Norma is basically his ultra version of Leto II.

"Waterworms" Don't get me started.

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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby SandChigger » 15 Feb 2010 19:45

Welcome to the Light Side. :D

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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby dunaddict » 02 Mar 2010 15:22

Krazy Kwisatz wrote:"That Marty and Daniel are infact omnius and erasmus" It's obvious they were supposed to be super face dancers, even to a 13-year old kid reading CD for the first time.

"Normacle" "Uber Kwizatz Haderach" "Ultra- spice" These are all variations on a theme. He can't measure up to Frank by coming up with his own original ideas and concepts, so he does it by coming up with "ultra-versions" of everything. Norma is basically his ultra version of Leto II.


Everyone knows Marty and Daniel were facedancers. The reason these awful authors changed them into retarded robots? They have a compulsive need to change or contradict things that were established in Dune. The most offensive one even contradicts the first page of the first Dune book. How arrogant can you get?
Maybe it's like you say, they really think they are writing ultra-Dune novels by changing all these things.

Krazy Kwisatz wrote:"Waterworms" Don't get me started.

Too late. You got me started now. :D
Waterworms. Sigh. No reason to put them in the story whatsoever. They were a failure in the end, so why put them in the novel? :? Their only purpose was yet another gore orgy where some Tleilaxu disembowles one.

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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby nampigai » 06 Mar 2010 18:55

this makes no sense what so ever to me, to me there was always a sense of understanding of Paul from the Counts side. I must say that I hate how the two fuck heads displays him in the house series.

Paul of Dune
Hasimir and Margot are raising Feyd and Margot's daughter — whom they have named Marie — as their own in the Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson interquel Paul of Dune (2008).[5] Between the events of Dune and Dune Messiah (1969), the Fenrings train their young child as both an assassin and a Bene Gesserit, but reject the interference of the Sisterhood itself in favor of their own plans for Marie to seize the Imperial throne from Paul Atreides.[6] Marie is accepted into Paul's court as a playmate for his young sister Alia; [7] at a banquet with her visiting parents, six-year-old Marie and the Fenrings execute their well-planned assassination attempt on Paul.[8] Alia manages to kill Marie, but Margot's revelation of her daughter's paternity surprises Paul enough to allow Hasimir to stab him near-mortally.[8] Paul's concubine Chani uses the poisonous Water of Life to help save him, and he lives; rather than kill the Fenrings, he banishes them to Salusa Secundus into permanent exile with Shaddam, whom they now loathe.[8]
Do not be quick to reveal judgment. Hidden judgment is often more potent. It can guide reaction whose effects are felt only when too late to divert them.
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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby Hunchback Jack » 06 Mar 2010 19:37

Every sentence in that summary makes me think, "Wait, what? But ... "

Between the events of Dune and Dune Messiah (1969), the Fenrings train their young child as both an assassin and a Bene Gesserit, but reject the interference of the Sisterhood itself in favor of their own plans for Marie to seize the Imperial throne from Paul Atreides.[6]


Right, and the BG will just let that happen, because it turned out *so well* for them the last time.

Marie is accepted into Paul's court as a playmate for his young sister Alia;


Wait, what? Why would the Atreides trust the Fenrings that far? Because Fenring *didn't kill* Paul at the end of Dune?

[7] at a banquet with her visiting parents, six-year-old Marie and the Fenrings execute their well-planned assassination attempt on Paul.[8] Alia manages to kill Marie, but Margot's revelation of her daughter's paternity surprises Paul enough to allow Hasimir to stab him near-mortally.[8]


Wait a second. If Fenring could just stab Paul while his wife distracted him, *why didn't they just do that in the first place*??? Why go to all the trouble of training the kid as an assassin and having her do it?

Paul's concubine Chani uses the poisonous Water of Life to help save him, and he lives; rather than kill the Fenrings, he banishes them to Salusa Secundus into permanent exile with Shaddam, whom they now loathe.


Um, what? When did the Water of Life become a healing agent? Why do they suddenly loathe Shaddam?

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