"New Canon" inconsistencies....

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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby Freakzilla » 10 May 2009 12:01

SandChigger wrote:You really should have a look at the Legends books if you can. They're REALLY bad and always help to stoke the hate fires when they start dying down. :lol:


You see, this is why we are but rank amatures and he is a professional. :wink:
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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby Karyle » 06 Jul 2009 13:58

Hey guys - I'm new here to Jacurutu (I wish I'd have thought to search for a community like this before now) and I just wanted to bring up an inconsistency that was one of the first huge glaring holes in the veil of BS the new books provide, and eventually led the tumbling slope of anger towards genuine hatred.

Also, I searched through this thread to make sure it wasn't already posted, and while it was kind of touched on, I want to re-state it as I see it exactly.


Okay, in all of Dune, when you consider Other Memory, that consciousness exists inside an individual from the moment of conception backwards. All things that occur in a parent's life AFTER siring a child are not in OM.

When you consider this Duniverse fact, it draws me instantly to Alia, an abomination. Because of this, she has Baron Harkonnen in her OM influencing her. The Baron in her OM is the fat, grotesque Baron we all know and hate. BUT, when the Baron sired Jessica, placing himself in OM for that line, he was not fat or grotesque, which makes it impossible for him to be that way in Alia (or anyone else down the line, for that matter).

Am I crazy, or am I right in this?

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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby SandChigger » 06 Jul 2009 14:04

:lol:

Nice. You're quite right. There shouldn't be any way for a persona-in-memory to be "updated" after the fact. Another nail in the coffin of McDune!

Excellent first post! Achlan wasachlan! :D
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 06 Jul 2009 14:08

Karyle wrote:Hey guys - I'm new here to Jacurutu (I wish I'd have thought to search for a community like this before now) and I just wanted to bring up an inconsistency that was one of the first huge glaring holes in the veil of BS the new books provide, and eventually led the tumbling slope of anger towards genuine hatred.

Also, I searched through this thread to make sure it wasn't already posted, and while it was kind of touched on, I want to re-state it as I see it exactly.


Okay, in all of Dune, when you consider Other Memory, that consciousness exists inside an individual from the moment of conception backwards. All things that occur in a parent's life AFTER siring a child are not in OM.

When you consider this Duniverse fact, it draws me instantly to Alia, an abomination. Because of this, she has Baron Harkonnen in her OM influencing her. The Baron in her OM is the fat, grotesque Baron we all know and hate. BUT, when the Baron sired Jessica, placing himself in OM for that line, he was not fat or grotesque, which makes it impossible for him to be that way in Alia (or anyone else down the line, for that matter).

Am I crazy, or am I right in this?


Good point and nice entrance! Welcome to the tribe.

KJA's excuse for this (I have developed a sense for what kind of BS he answers questions with) would probably be something like "Because Alia remembers the Baron as fat, that is how her own mind created an image of him when his personality was talking".
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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 06 Jul 2009 14:08

SandChigger wrote::lol:

Nice. You're quite right. There shouldn't be any way for a persona-in-memory to be "updated" after the fact. Another nail in the coffin of McDune!

Excellent first post! Achlan wasachlan! :D


Damn you ninja poster! You beat me.
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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby SandChigger » 06 Jul 2009 14:17

"This is my gongfu. And it is strong." :P


(This kinda sorta ties into the problem in Hunters/Sandworms of Serena Butler in Sheeana's memory knowing that she had tutored Muad'Dib in the art of jihad. Do the personae-in-memory all share a common memory store or something? :roll: )
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby Karyle » 06 Jul 2009 16:25

Honestly I wasn't too, too bothered by all of this crap until fairly recently with my current run-through of the books. I had been debating about picking up Paul of Dune, despite the fact that the idea of writing an "in-between" novel screams "I want more monies, please!" and I decided to find some interviews on the net.

I found some.

Nail in the coffin for me was KJA standing in front of a group of Dune "fans," bad mouthing Messiah (my personal favorite), with Brian standing slightly behind him with his head down and hands clasped together much like a pitiful child. Why could he not have been more like Christopher Tolkien and been worth a damn to his father's legacy? KJA is an outsider with shite talent for writing, and he thinks he can criticize Frank? That he can write novels in Frank's universe because his spineless son can't create work himself that's worth a damn and that pays the bills?

It literally makes me sick, I hate them so much.

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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby SadisticCynic » 06 Jul 2009 16:46

Karyle wrote:Okay, in all of Dune, when you consider Other Memory, that consciousness exists inside an individual from the moment of conception backwards. All things that occur in a parent's life AFTER siring a child are not in OM.

When you consider this Duniverse fact, it draws me instantly to Alia, an abomination. Because of this, she has Baron Harkonnen in her OM influencing her. The Baron in her OM is the fat, grotesque Baron we all know and hate. BUT, when the Baron sired Jessica, placing himself in OM for that line, he was not fat or grotesque, which makes it impossible for him to be that way in Alia (or anyone else down the line, for that matter).

Am I crazy, or am I right in this?


Excellent, nice catch!
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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby Serkanner » 06 Jul 2009 16:52

I had to re-read the inconsistencie three times, but now I get it. It is a very delicate one but if you want to write in Frank's universe you need to be delicate, and that is one thing the dicktahiker isn't.
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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 06 Jul 2009 16:54

Karyle wrote:Honestly I wasn't too, too bothered by all of this crap until fairly recently with my current run-through of the books. I had been debating about picking up Paul of Dune, despite the fact that the idea of writing an "in-between" novel screams "I want more monies, please!" and I decided to find some interviews on the net.

I found some.

Nail in the coffin for me was KJA standing in front of a group of Dune "fans," bad mouthing Messiah (my personal favorite), with Brian standing slightly behind him with his head down and hands clasped together much like a pitiful child. Why could he not have been more like Christopher Tolkien and been worth a damn to his father's legacy? KJA is an outsider with shite talent for writing, and he thinks he can criticize Frank? That he can write novels in Frank's universe because his spineless son can't create work himself that's worth a damn and that pays the bills?

It literally makes me sick, I hate them so much.


I've calmed down now, but when I first read the Legends series (long before I found this site) I almost cried, but that was sadness not anger.

Sandworms caused anger. I know exactly what you mean when you say it literally makes you sick.
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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby Karyle » 06 Jul 2009 19:28

I stopped by a used book store tonight on the way home and found a copy of Paul of Dune (I wouldn't consider paying full price, not to mention I don't want to raise their official sales numbers), so I was considering actually picking it up if for nothing else than to add it to the shelf.

So, I grabbed the copy from the shelf (the lone copy, I might add) and opened it... to a scene about Duke Leto getting married, Paul as a child in attendance, and a description of the ridiculous Prince Rhombur in attendance.

LET YOUR POORLY DESIGNED, BS CHARACTERS AND LUDICROUS PLOTLINES GO AWAY, KJA!

Needless to say I put it back on the shelf in disgust. I'll wait until I can ebay it for a couple of dollars rather than the $7 that the bookstore wanted.

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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby SandChigger » 06 Jul 2009 20:02

Hey, Karyle, if you're really curious, have a look at this:

http://www.hairyticksofdune.net/synopse ... opsis.html

"Chapter"-by-"chapter", blow-by-blow. :)
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby Karyle » 06 Jul 2009 20:35

It deeply saddens me that I am still going to read that piece of garbage.

I actually feel guilty criticizing it, even knowing it's shit, because I have yet to read it. It's a habit of mine I formed when I first started teaching high school - I only openly criticize a book, especially in front of students, if I've read it. I mean, hell, I've read Twilight... which honestly now that I think about it, is on the level with KJA's garbage.

Chigger, any help I can provide in your crusade... ask and I will do my best. This needs to be stopped.

KJA was someone I remembered fondly from years ago with Star Wars Jedi Academy Trilogy (which he may have actually, physically written... who knows?). But, when I matured, and then began to read this New Canon blasphemy... bleh. The man needs to be taken down a few notches.

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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby dunaddict » 07 Jul 2009 05:12

Karyle wrote:Hey guys - I'm new here to Jacurutu (I wish I'd have thought to search for a community like this before now) and I just wanted to bring up an inconsistency that was one of the first huge glaring holes in the veil of BS the new books provide, and eventually led the tumbling slope of anger towards genuine hatred.

Also, I searched through this thread to make sure it wasn't already posted, and while it was kind of touched on, I want to re-state it as I see it exactly.


Okay, in all of Dune, when you consider Other Memory, that consciousness exists inside an individual from the moment of conception backwards. All things that occur in a parent's life AFTER siring a child are not in OM.

When you consider this Duniverse fact, it draws me instantly to Alia, an abomination. Because of this, she has Baron Harkonnen in her OM influencing her. The Baron in her OM is the fat, grotesque Baron we all know and hate. BUT, when the Baron sired Jessica, placing himself in OM for that line, he was not fat or grotesque, which makes it impossible for him to be that way in Alia (or anyone else down the line, for that matter).

Am I crazy, or am I right in this?


Good one, Karyle. This whole fatness-disease thing stinks anyway. How on Earth (or Giedi Prime) could a disease be transmitted via OM? The only way Alia could be influenced by the Baron is her eating habits.
KJA/BH (and the editor) seem to be incapable of thinking through their ideas properly. Another possibility is that they DO see the inconsistencies, but think their new stuff is just too 'kewl' to throw away...

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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby dunaddict » 07 Jul 2009 05:20

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Karyle wrote:Honestly I wasn't too, too bothered by all of this crap until fairly recently with my current run-through of the books. I had been debating about picking up Paul of Dune, despite the fact that the idea of writing an "in-between" novel screams "I want more monies, please!" and I decided to find some interviews on the net.

I found some.

Nail in the coffin for me was KJA standing in front of a group of Dune "fans," bad mouthing Messiah (my personal favorite), with Brian standing slightly behind him with his head down and hands clasped together much like a pitiful child. Why could he not have been more like Christopher Tolkien and been worth a damn to his father's legacy? KJA is an outsider with shite talent for writing, and he thinks he can criticize Frank? That he can write novels in Frank's universe because his spineless son can't create work himself that's worth a damn and that pays the bills?

It literally makes me sick, I hate them so much.


I've calmed down now, but when I first read the Legends series (long before I found this site) I almost cried, but that was sadness not anger.

Sandworms caused anger. I know exactly what you mean when you say it literally makes you sick.


My experience:
House books: unpleasantly surprised when I saw the first inconsistencies.
Legends books: annoyed with the cliche B-movie sci-fi ideas and the slow and boring tale.
Dune 7 books: angry, because the bad story and inconsistencies with Chapterhouse.

I think I am beyond anger now. Reading about the stuff you guys found in PoD/WoD, I find myself just laughing at the crazy stuff the dynamic duo comes up with.

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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby inhuien » 07 Jul 2009 06:26

The books that HLP are allowing to be published under the DUNE banner have nothing to do with Frank Herbert's creation and never will, they're (the books) are an irrelevance
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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby SandChigger » 07 Jul 2009 08:45

I think dunaddict hit an important part of the problem, though: KJA thinks his shit ideas are just so kewl that they'll WOW readers into swallowing them, whatever FH wrote.

Unfortunately, with the idiots who call themselves his fans, he's right. :roll:
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby Ampoliros » 07 Jul 2009 10:35

Welcome welcome!

Baron H according to canon was fat because of his gluttony and excess, not the disease crap that KJA hijacked from Lynch's Dune. Glutton can be passed on through OM to an abomination like Alia, who is possessed.
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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby TheDukester » 07 Jul 2009 13:50

SandChigger wrote:Unfortunately, with the idiots who call themselves his fans, he's right. :roll:

Give Keith credit for one thing: he understands that Sci Fi fandom is made up of mostly Lowest Common Denominators.

One way to write for a living is to give them what they want ... and what they want is what they're already comfortable with.
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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby dunaddict » 09 Jul 2009 16:22

I'm reading Dune again. And I came across something that confirmed a suspicion I had before about Duke Leto's father. (I mentioned it once in the Paul of Dune spoilers thread):

The Paulus character always bothered me in House Atreides when I read it. He is described as some sort of "Santa Claus / best granddaddy ever" type of guy: Charming and witty. quotes from House Atreides:

Paulus laughed, a blustery offering that suggested a lifetime of revelry and
bawdy stories.

Smiling enigmatically, the Old Duke continued.

He smiled and clapped his son on the shoulder."


Now read these scenes from Dune (chapter 7 and 8 ):

Jessica turned away, faced the painting of Leto's father. [...] She clenched her fists at her sides, glared at the painting.
"Damn you! Damn you! Damn you!" she whispered.


Jessica spoke, shattering the moment. "Besides, Wellington, the Duke is
really two men. One of them I love very much. He's charming, witty, considerate
. . . tender--everything a woman could desire. But the other man is . . . cold,
callous, demanding, selfish--as harsh and cruel as a winter wind. That's the man
shaped by the father." Her face contorted. "If only that old man had died when
my Duke was born!"


This means the old duke was NOT charming and witty.

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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby SandChigger » 09 Jul 2009 19:38

Some day we need to create a definitive list and tally of errors.

But not today. ;)
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby dunaddict » 10 Jul 2009 04:47

Maybe today IS a good day. :D This thread (and the whole prequel board) has a lot of great finds that are not in the first post.
If it's alright with you, the moderators, I want to start a new thread with all the inconsistencies I can find in the prequels-board. (and elsewhere)
One post per book. No other (new) posts allowed in the thread. If it's possible, make it sticky and editable by the mods. That way stuff can be added and corrected. What do you think?

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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby Karyle » 10 Jul 2009 10:16

I like it, but I wouldn't really have to do any of the work...

So my opinion probably isn't fair. Or right.

But it's certainly a good idea!

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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 10 Jul 2009 10:57

dunaddict wrote:Maybe today IS a good day. :D This thread (and the whole prequel board) has a lot of great finds that are not in the first post.
If it's alright with you, the moderators, I want to start a new thread with all the inconsistencies I can find in the prequels-board. (and elsewhere)
One post per book. No other (new) posts allowed in the thread. If it's possible, make it sticky and editable by the mods. That way stuff can be added and corrected. What do you think?


If you're willing to do the bulk of the sorting I think this is a great idea, and everyone else here would happily help check your work.
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Re: "New Canon" inconsistencies....

Postby dunaddict » 10 Jul 2009 11:55

Ok, I will create the thread later today. Maybe one of the mods can make it sticky. Of course this thread will remain THE place to report new inconsistencies.


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