A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Image
    Abandon all sanity ye who enter here

Moderators: ᴶᵛᵀᴬ, Omphalos, Freakzilla

D Pope
Posts: 1500
Joined: 14 May 2010 14:11
Location: Grubville

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby D Pope » 07 Nov 2015 16:33

georgiedenbro wrote:
I suspect there are notes of some kind.

Variants of what BH said at certain points made it sound like there were a couple of loose pages found, and I tend to believe this version of the story.

I suspect the two scavengers took what little they could from the notes and made up the rest (obviously omitting good faith).

Know that the only consistent part of that story was how they first drafted the
biggest outline any human has ever seen and sent it off before 'finding' the notes.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

georgiedenbro
Posts: 761
Joined: 11 Jun 2014 13:56
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby georgiedenbro » 07 Nov 2015 23:18

D Pope wrote:
georgiedenbro wrote:
I suspect there are notes of some kind.

Variants of what BH said at certain points made it sound like there were a couple of loose pages found, and I tend to believe this version of the story.

I suspect the two scavengers took what little they could from the notes and made up the rest (obviously omitting good faith).

Know that the only consistent part of that story was how they first drafted the
biggest outline any human has ever seen and sent it off before 'finding' the notes.


On the assumption they did find some notes I expect they would have taken what they could from them and injected them in some form into the story they'd already written. I find it hard to believe that FH never wrote any notes for Dune 7, seeing as there are several references in CH:D to things we haven't seen yet. If I'm to believe that Frank knew where he was going with it then he'd have notes in some form.

One example of shoehorning notes into the story might be the meeting between Leto and Jessica in House Atreides. The duo claim they found notes for this scene and incorporated it into House Atreides, and even if this is true it bears mentioning that the story wouldn't have changed significantly in its absence. Their scene structure is so arbitrary that adding in a scene or two at any given point would be no problem for them.
"um-m-m-ah-h-h-hm-m-m-m!"

User avatar
SandRider
Watermaster
Posts: 6163
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
Location: In the back of your mind. Always.
Contact:

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby SandRider » 13 Nov 2015 19:21

Freakzilla wrote:We'll never see the notes as long as those two are alive. If they do exist, there's no way they were closely adhered to in the sequels and that would plainly show how little respect they had for what FH intended. If they did follow his notes closely it would show that FH had gone totally of his rocker. If they don't exist I can't believe even they would have the audacity to forge something.


I agree with everything here but the last sentence.



and there are no notes
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18157
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby Freakzilla » 13 Nov 2015 20:41

SandRider wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:We'll never see the notes as long as those two are alive. If they do exist, there's no way they were closely adhered to in the sequels and that would plainly show how little respect they had for what FH intended. If they did follow his notes closely it would show that FH had gone totally of his rocker. If they don't exist I can't believe even they would have the audacity to forge something.


I agree with everything here but the last sentence.



and there are no notes


I suppose they might, but I hope they don't.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
Robspierre
Posts: 2160
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 10:49
Location: Cascadia

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby Robspierre » 14 Nov 2015 12:38

There supposedly is a paperback copy of Chapterhouse that Frank highlighted passages in, I didn't see any English language copies of Frank's works in The Florence library, though that is only a small fraction of his research library.

Rob

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby lotek » 16 Nov 2015 07:42

the dynamic duo ultra.jpg

Poor montage but have fun!

the dynamic duo .jpg
Spice is the worm's gonads.

xcalibur
Posts: 50
Joined: 18 Sep 2015 08:23

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby xcalibur » 09 Apr 2016 05:12

to respond to the OP, I don't think we'll see the Dune 7 notes unless they get surreptitiously leaked out (cue alot of blubbering, ballyhooing and damage control from the dynamic duo).

I think the notes do exist, and they would give us a sketch of how the series would've concluded. I think b&k loosely derived some ideas from the notes left behind while blatantly contradicting them.
Fremen : Museum Fremen :: Frank : Brian & Kevin

User avatar
Sardaukar Capt
Posts: 167
Joined: 30 Oct 2011 12:28
Location: Texas

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby Sardaukar Capt » 07 Oct 2016 17:04

Since Naviturds is the last contracted book for the Hacks, it got me thinking about the mythic notes and outline.

If there are not any notes nor an outline or if they exist, they weren't followed, I believe its one of those, I can see Kieth one day laying all the shit bare about McDune in a grab for legitimacy and credit. That he alone came up with all the plots and ideas and wrote the books all himself and BoBo was just a name and figurehead. I think this is not just probable but damn likely to happen, especially with Naviturds being the last McDune book under contract.

At that point, we may get the truth. And if the notes and outline exist, I could see either party trotting them out for their own reasons. Kieth to "prove" (in his own pathetic mind) that he alone made Dune a best seller again with his own ideas and vision. BoBo to show Frank's true vision was nothing like Kieth's and he made into a deal with the devil and forced to keep it by the HLP who wanted tehKJA to rape Frank's legacy for a shot at making it a franchise and a fortune.

And if that scenario doesn't play out, maybe BoBo will come to his senses if the cares about his father's legacy as much as he claims, and will on his own before he dies will donate all of Franks mythic notes and outlines to Fullerton where they belong so then the real truth will be known.
The name Atreides was also consciously chosen. It is the family name of Agamemnon. Says Herbert, "I wanted a sense of monumental aristocracy, but with tragedy hanging over them--and in our culture, Agamemnon personifies that."
Frank Herbert by Tim O'Reilly
http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/

Ghanima said. "We Atreides go back to Agamemnon..."
Distracted, Irulan asked: "Who's Agamemnon?"

Children of Dune by Frank Herbert

WTF? A BG forgets the Titans?! :)

AnEhforanEh
Posts: 62
Joined: 24 Sep 2016 02:54

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby AnEhforanEh » 09 Oct 2016 04:03

The "Notes" were nothing more than a yellow Post-it stuck to a picture of Bev Frank had on top of his floor safe that read: "Reminder - write Dune 7"

Even Bri-Bri's non fiction stories suffer from gross exaggerations and inconsistancies.

User avatar
Sardaukar Capt
Posts: 167
Joined: 30 Oct 2011 12:28
Location: Texas

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby Sardaukar Capt » 09 Oct 2016 15:52

For what its worth, wanted to save this in the forums for posterity. Pretty much proves there are no "1000s of notes" that support McDune since they never bother to mention them in this interview for Machine Crud's release. And they mention the sole source of the 3 Legends books is the Dune Appendix in the original Dune and BoBo's concordance of Frank's 6 books... funny no mentions of Frank's 1000s of pages of notes that explain the whole history of Dune including the Bulterian Jihad. I did my own "corcordance" on the Butlerian Jihad using Kindle PC Desktop app and the 6 Kindle versions of the books. It has a great search tool. Used every phrase I could think of. My conclusion is the BJ and the thinking machines are referred to rarely given the scope of Frank's books and never in any detail. And my sense is that it was a holy war against other humans who wouldn't let go of the machine mentality as much as it was against the machines themselves. Nothing supports the Hacks Terminatory/Matrix mashup version of machines vs humans they wrote about. So we know their "Dune 7" is a lie. And the "1000s of pages of notes" was cooked up to give their "Dune 7" legitimacy when they planned to do a direct sequel to ChaperHouse.

Circling back to my other point, because reading this interview its even more clear to me that tehKJA came up with the overarching plot of Legends, Cunters and Sandturns, and all subsequent books by himself (I'll give that BoBo may have helped plot the House books), and that when it's finally clear there will be no more McDune books, Kieth will want his full credit for his "legacy". In his mind, HE "reinvigorated" Dune all on his own with his own ideas because Frank didn't leave enough behind to do any of these books.


https://www.sfsite.com/07a/sabh203.htm

Pasting below for posterity

Frank Herbert's Dune universe is currently expanding under the careful eye of Herbert's son Brian. Working with fellow author Kevin J. Anderson, they've both been exploring the early worlds of Dune -- first in their Prelude series and now in their Legends of Dune series, starting with The Butlerian Jihad, and currently in their latest release The Machine Crusade.

Writing in an existing universe requires a detailed knowledge of the underlying topography to avoid mistakes and Herbert and Anderson understand this fully.


"With The Legends of Dune, we were constrained by the appendix of Dune," Herbert said. "Frank Herbert laid out in general what had occurred in The Butlerian Jihad -- how there was a human child killed by a Thinking Machine; how this provoked an outpouring of emotion; and the humans rose up to defeat their Thinking Machine masters."

The Holy War started by this event is the driving force of the plot through out the Legends of Dune series and the authors have successfully captured the overall Dune atmosphere.

Herbert said, "I did a huge concordance of the six Dune books, so I know all the references to the Butlerian Jihad and what page number they're on, so we included all that information too. I'd also spent five years writing Dad's biography, Dreamer of Dune -- rereading everything he wrote and putting it together with the things he said to me. I hear his voice as I write in his marvelous universe now. And Kevin was inspired by Frank Herbert too and although they never met, Kevin still knows him as far as is possible."

Herbert and Anderson share a comfortable writing partnership and they spend many hours brainstorming plot and characters for each book.

"Sometimes we have a story idea and have to create a character to fit the actions," said Anderson. "Other times we have a vivid character who naturally goes in certain directions. We talk out the books in detail and when we divide the chapters, we can usually determine which of us is best suited to write a character or scene. For example, with The Machine Crusade, I fell in love with Selim Wormrider and therefore wrote the first draft of most of those chapters; Brian was particularly fond of Norma Cenva, the scientist, so he took that storyline. But by the time we're done, we've each gone over each other's chapters so many times we own them all jointly."

Herbert continued, "I usually write the first draft of the Erasmus character. Kevin came up with a character -- a Thinking Machine who was researching what it was like to be human -- and I said let's add (the Nazi medical researcher) Dr Mengele to him and make him really dark and strange. Then Kevin laughed and said, 'Boy Brian, I don't know if I can write that, you'd better do it!' He wasn't saying that couldn't write it -- it was just a little dig that only my twisted mind could write that character. So we have a lot of fun. We riff off each other, like a musical performance."

Their next book will be the long awaited Dune 7 story, following on from ChapterHouse: Dune. Herbert said,

"We've been brainstorming this one during our Machine Crusade tour. For example, I was talking with Kevin in front of a large audience one night and I suddenly had an epiphany, an idea I thought should be in Dune 7. So I bounced it off Kevin right there in front of the audience and we did some brainstorming. The idea was that even though Frank Herbert referred to the destruction of Dune in Heretics and ChapterHouse, it was never written. So I said to Kevin: why don't we open the first of the Dune 7 books with a dramatic destruction of Dune scene? We started kicking it around and we now agree that it is a good place to start."

Herbert is keeping some of the Dune 7 details quiet though.

"We found some of Dad's notes in a safe deposit box that had been locked for eleven years and we've been using them for Dune 7," he said. "We have an advantage over other science fiction series because we can always bring a character back from the dead, as a ghola, because the Tlulaxa can breed human beings out of dead cells." So who will be back from the dead in Dune 7? "Oh that's a closely guarded secret, you'll have to wait and see!"

(This interview first appeared on Sci Fi Channel Europe.)

Copyright © 2005 by Sandy Auden
The name Atreides was also consciously chosen. It is the family name of Agamemnon. Says Herbert, "I wanted a sense of monumental aristocracy, but with tragedy hanging over them--and in our culture, Agamemnon personifies that."
Frank Herbert by Tim O'Reilly
http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/

Ghanima said. "We Atreides go back to Agamemnon..."
Distracted, Irulan asked: "Who's Agamemnon?"

Children of Dune by Frank Herbert

WTF? A BG forgets the Titans?! :)

AnEhforanEh
Posts: 62
Joined: 24 Sep 2016 02:54

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby AnEhforanEh » 10 Oct 2016 09:22

"With The Legends of Dune, we were constrained by the appendix of Dune," BoBo said. "Frank Herbert laid out in general what had occurred in The Butlerian Jihad -- how there was a human child killed by a Thinking Machine; how this provoked an outpouring of emotion; and the humans rose up to defeat their Thinking Machine masters."

Nowhere in the appendices is this mentioned. I'm beginning to suspect that ol' Brian was jealous of his father and saw the opportunity to "rewrite" Dune in his own vision (or lack thereof). Why else make Dune (and presumably DM and CoD as well) the "in-universe" historical ramblings of Irulan? Effectively supplanting his own watered-down drivel as the "Real" story.

Its less that he/they misunderstood the source material... its a deliberate attempt to subvert Frank's work.

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18157
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby Freakzilla » 10 Oct 2016 10:28

AnEhforanEh wrote:
"With The Legends of Dune, we were constrained by the appendix of Dune," BoBo said. "Frank Herbert laid out in general what had occurred in The Butlerian Jihad -- how there was a human child killed by a Thinking Machine; how this provoked an outpouring of emotion; and the humans rose up to defeat their Thinking Machine masters."

Nowhere in the appendices is this mentioned. I'm beginning to suspect that ol' Brian was jealous of his father and saw the opportunity to "rewrite" Dune in his own vision (or lack thereof). Why else make Dune (and presumably DM and CoD as well) the "in-universe" historical ramblings of Irulan? Effectively supplanting his own watered-down drivel as the "Real" story.

Its less that he/they misunderstood the source material... its a deliberate attempt to subvert Frank's work.


That story is from from the Dune Encyclopedia.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

AnEhforanEh
Posts: 62
Joined: 24 Sep 2016 02:54

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby AnEhforanEh » 10 Oct 2016 12:30

Freakzilla wrote:That story is from from the Dune Encyclopedia.

Of course, but since they didn't use the DE as a reference document it must be an original idea...

User avatar
Sardaukar Capt
Posts: 167
Joined: 30 Oct 2011 12:28
Location: Texas

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby Sardaukar Capt » 10 Oct 2016 14:29

I had forgotten the Dune Encyclopedia had that same type of origin of the Bulterian Jihad that the Hacks used. They just betray themselves in every way in that interview. :)

And speaking of interviews. From the grave, Frank smack's down the hacks.

Found some audio ones with Frank, I think I may have posted here a few years ago where Frank talks about computers, thinking machines and the Butlerian Jihad.


Source:
https://bobbogle.wordpress.com/2014/07/ ... ure-tapes/

Part 17 about 6 minutes in - I transcribed these as best as I could.

(Appears to take place early 80s around the release of GEoD and prior to Heretics)

(Concept of the Butlerian Jihad) "arises out of the mythology of computers, that they can think, that they can become pseudo-human, there are limits on that of course"
"My view of it is at root they are machines and one of the pitfalls of machines is they tend to condition the people who use them to treat their fellow humans as other machines. "
"You carry that on too far and that becomes so abrasive, the treatment of your fellow humans as machines, that the whole society will turn against what they see as the instrumentality supporting this attitude. They will focus on a particular thing, the computer. "
"Of course they are hanging an innocent man (laughs) because no computer can think, it will never think like a human"
"I'll say this flatly, I'll go way out on a limb, computers deal with discrete bits, no matter rapidly they deal with them, they are discrete bits like exposures of movie film, each frame"
"In human beings, if we deal with discrete bits, if that is the basis of our operation, our behavior, that they are so fine, so rapid, so multi-linked, that I despair of our every separating a bit out. The best description of what we do is we operate in a continuum where there is no starting and stopping. It's a flow, it's unbroken, it's a continuum. "
"When you try to copy that, make an image of that in a system that is confined to discrete bits, you are reduced to a system that will never really reach the continuum level however they can do some things automatically, very rapidly which is the advantage of computers ... they do things automatically, without thinking. "
"We have 2 modes of mental operation at least, many more really, but I'll just address myself with 2. One is the so-called instinctual level we do things automatically.... we respond to behavioral input. And the other is a kind of pattern recognition which gives us language, art, great inventions... these are patterns, they are imposed patterns. "

(Were there certain things to incite the Butlerian Jihad) "Excesses, I thought of great war machines being made that automatically kill people, machines that would simulate great masses of people .... and predict their behavior. I thought of all of these uses of machines to maneuver people or to replace them. So the living organism rebelled and you could begin at a very small level but if there were a lot of resentment all through society it could steamroll ... look at what happened in Iran. "
"I didn't have a planet of origin in mind" (out of the 50 - 60 named planets in the first 3 Dune books) "it (the Jihad) would spread very rapidly (throughout the galaxy) yes"
"This isn't really an anti-intellectualism, the specific is stated, Thou shall make no machine in the image of the human mind "

(Any thought as to how long the Jihad lasted) "I hadn't even thought about it ... long enough to accomplish it's purpose. I'm dealing in such magnitudes of time that I can put it way back there where now they only have a memory of it but its a very important memory because it still carries the weight of law. " (An approximately modern analogy we in the West might have the racial memory of the Black Death ) "Oh yes, exactly"

(Was there a formal end to the Jihad where they came down with some sort of Constitution?) "Yeah it was incorporated into what has now become The Great Convention and of course it was also incorporated into religious prohibitions. Also for the Jihad to be successful over this length of time, there had to be some substitute for that which had come to depend upon the computer ... and therefore we have the Mentat. Otherwise you would have had people getting computers and doing it all over again (laughs)"
The name Atreides was also consciously chosen. It is the family name of Agamemnon. Says Herbert, "I wanted a sense of monumental aristocracy, but with tragedy hanging over them--and in our culture, Agamemnon personifies that."
Frank Herbert by Tim O'Reilly
http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/

Ghanima said. "We Atreides go back to Agamemnon..."
Distracted, Irulan asked: "Who's Agamemnon?"

Children of Dune by Frank Herbert

WTF? A BG forgets the Titans?! :)

AnEhforanEh
Posts: 62
Joined: 24 Sep 2016 02:54

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby AnEhforanEh » 10 Oct 2016 15:54

The notion that the Jihad was also "people killing people" is found right in Appendix II:
Upon the conclusion of the Jihad and beginning of the C.E. T. :
"Hesitantly, the leaders of religions whose followers had spilled the blood of billions began meeting to exchange veiws."

Are we to believe machines have blood?
Everything the Hacks say stinks of bullshit. Brian most certainly didn't compile a concordance, let lone memorize every page number of a BJ reference. He's a piece of human trash that should be stripped of the Herbert name and castrated so his seed doesn't poison the genepool.

User avatar
Sardaukar Capt
Posts: 167
Joined: 30 Oct 2011 12:28
Location: Texas

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby Sardaukar Capt » 10 Oct 2016 17:08

To me, what Frank had in mind is much more interesting than what the Hacks stole from The Terminator and Matrix. How in the future humans submit their basic humanity and freedom to the convenience of machines till the human body politic revolted from such a state. The Bulterian Jihad was a holy war among humans between the jihadists and those who worshiped at the alter of the machine and let machines take over every facet of their lives including their thinking. The result, billions were killed along with all "thinking machines" and humanity was set on a new path for 5000+ years and counting.

This would have been a much more interesting story if Frank had ever wanted to flesh it out, but I'm not sure he had any interest in actually doing it. He seemed more interested in going forward than back which is why he endorsed the Dune Encyclopedia.

BoBo isn't capable of such writing required to tackle the subject and tehkja is too simple minded to dive deep into that, so like any talentless hacks, they took the easy way out. Had a circle jerk while binging on The Terminator, The Matrix, and The Forbin Project and letting Dune Encyclopedia do half their work for them.


To expand on your quote From Dune, in the Appendix, The Religion of Dune

Then came the Butlerian Jihad—two generations of chaos. The god of machine-logic was overthrown among the masses and a new concept was raised: “Man may not be replaced.” Those two generations of violence were a thalamic pause for all humankind. Men looked at their gods and their rituals and saw that both were filled with that most terrible of all equations: fear over ambition. Hesitantly, the leaders of religions whose followers had spilled the blood of billions began meeting to exchange views. It was a move encouraged by the Spacing Guild, which was beginning to build its monopoly over all interstellar travel, and by the Bene Gesserit who were banding the sorceresses.


From God Emperor of Dune

“Then this Hwi Noree . . .”

“She makes me recall the Butlerian Jihad in a poignant way. She is the antithesis of all that’s mechanical and non-human. How odd it is, Moneo,that the Ixians, of all people, should produce this one person who so perfectly embodies those qualities which I hold most dear.”

“I do not understand your reference to the Butlerian Jihad, Lord. Machines that think have no place in . . .”

The target of the Jihad was a machine-attitude as much as the machines,” Leto said. “Humans had set those machines to usurp our sense of beauty, our necessary selfdom out of which we make living judgments. Naturally, the machines were destroyed.”

Frank Herbert. God Emperor of Dune (Kindle Locations 5079-5083). Penguin. Kindle Edition.
The name Atreides was also consciously chosen. It is the family name of Agamemnon. Says Herbert, "I wanted a sense of monumental aristocracy, but with tragedy hanging over them--and in our culture, Agamemnon personifies that."
Frank Herbert by Tim O'Reilly
http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/

Ghanima said. "We Atreides go back to Agamemnon..."
Distracted, Irulan asked: "Who's Agamemnon?"

Children of Dune by Frank Herbert

WTF? A BG forgets the Titans?! :)

georgiedenbro
Posts: 761
Joined: 11 Jun 2014 13:56
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby georgiedenbro » 10 Oct 2016 22:05

Sardaukar Capt wrote:"I'll say this flatly, I'll go way out on a limb, computers deal with discrete bits, no matter rapidly they deal with them, they are discrete bits like exposures of movie film, each frame"
"In human beings, if we deal with discrete bits, if that is the basis of our operation, our behavior, that they are so fine, so rapid, so multi-linked, that I despair of our every separating a bit out. The best description of what we do is we operate in a continuum where there is no starting and stopping. It's a flow, it's unbroken, it's a continuum. "


Great post, thanks for doing the transcription.

I've been struggling with this concept of "discrete" bits for a while now. I knew what sort of thing Frank was saying, but never understood exactly what it meant. I know what a discrete bit is, but certain didn't have any idea of what exactly he thought humans did that is different. He'd need to have a model of 'computing' of the human brain in order to suggest there was a distinctly different operation going on; in other words, he'd need to be able to posit a complete model of consciousness, which to whit even current modern science is nowhere near doing. However, in light of what came out in the other thread about Frank perhaps subscribing to the esoteric tradition of holographic universe theory where all knowledge is really stored in spacetime and merely accessed by the brain remotely, it is much easier to understand what he might have meant. Basically, humans are living antennas which can channel...well, the universe itself, as well as everyone else in it, since the theory supposes as basic truth that non-location movement and communication are inherent properties available through the universe. Naturally a machine, no matter how sophisticated, would never be able to do these things as it would never have access to the 'spacememory network'. Its calculations would always be restricted to its local system and programmed data. I suppose he wasn't addressing the possibility of constructing an artificial life form with the built-in capability that living beings have; perhaps that wouldn't be defined as a machine any more but as biological engineering, which in the Dune universe is banned in any case. If this was Frank's basic framework then his statements about the limitations of machines are obviously true; so much so that Mohiam's mocking of machine thinking in Dune would be all the more firm as a position from which to judge mentat thinking.

Sardaukar Capt wrote:The result, billions were killed along with all "thinking machines" and humanity was set on a new path for 5000+ years and counting.


Just a quibble, but as of Dune the number would be 10,000+, and of CH:D, 15,000+.
"um-m-m-ah-h-h-hm-m-m-m!"

AnEhforanEh
Posts: 62
Joined: 24 Sep 2016 02:54

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby AnEhforanEh » 11 Oct 2016 06:25

Sardaukar Capt wrote:To me, what Frank had in mind is much more interesting than what the Hacks stole from The Terminator and Matrix. How in the future humans submit their basic humanity and freedom to the convenience of machines till the human body politic revolted from such a state. The Bulterian Jihad was a holy war among humans between the jihadists and those who worshiped at the alter of the machine and let machines take over every facet of their lives including their thinking.

Right? The "thinking" the machines were doing had replaced and removed the human element from thought. In turn the machines had a resonant effect on human thinking, making people more machine-like.
I'm reminded of a story I read about a month ago: Germany is installing crosswalk lights directly into the sidewalk because too many people are simply walking into traffic while looking down at their phones. (Personally, I say fuck'em... weed out the chafe.) If this isn't a near-perfect example of what Frank was warning at I'm not sure what is. Machines are literally responsible for people neglecting their own well-being.

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18157
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby Freakzilla » 11 Oct 2016 06:36

georgiedenbro wrote:I suppose he wasn't addressing the possibility of constructing an artificial life form with the built-in capability that living beings have; perhaps that wouldn't be defined as a machine any more but as biological engineering, which in the Dune universe is banned in any case.


I wouldn't say it was banned but detested. Isn't this what the Tleilaxu did with the NFDs and by extension Marty & Daniel?
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

georgiedenbro
Posts: 761
Joined: 11 Jun 2014 13:56
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby georgiedenbro » 11 Oct 2016 08:43

Freakzilla wrote:
georgiedenbro wrote:I suppose he wasn't addressing the possibility of constructing an artificial life form with the built-in capability that living beings have; perhaps that wouldn't be defined as a machine any more but as biological engineering, which in the Dune universe is banned in any case.


I wouldn't say it was banned but detested. Isn't this what the Tleilaxu did with the NFDs and by extension Marty & Daniel?


I'd guess so. I was thinking more in terms of mechanical bio-engineering, such as building a device that had biological elements to it. Then again the 'detested' part to me really seems to be the ability to take new forms itself; that it later became taking personas was an advancement but I'm not sure whether that was a matter of degree or type. What surprises me is how easily people accepted the existence of face dancers even back in DM.
"um-m-m-ah-h-h-hm-m-m-m!"

User avatar
Sardaukar Capt
Posts: 167
Joined: 30 Oct 2011 12:28
Location: Texas

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby Sardaukar Capt » 11 Oct 2016 10:06

georgiedenbro wrote:Just a quibble, but as of Dune the number would be 10,000+, and of CH:D, 15,000+.


You're right. Had the Dune to Chapterhouse timespan stuck in my head for some reason. Thanks for the correction.
The name Atreides was also consciously chosen. It is the family name of Agamemnon. Says Herbert, "I wanted a sense of monumental aristocracy, but with tragedy hanging over them--and in our culture, Agamemnon personifies that."
Frank Herbert by Tim O'Reilly
http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/

Ghanima said. "We Atreides go back to Agamemnon..."
Distracted, Irulan asked: "Who's Agamemnon?"

Children of Dune by Frank Herbert

WTF? A BG forgets the Titans?! :)

AnEhforanEh
Posts: 62
Joined: 24 Sep 2016 02:54

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby AnEhforanEh » 11 Oct 2016 10:31

georgiedenbro wrote:What surprises me is how easily people accepted the existence of face dancers even back in DM.

It always seemed to me that it was a natural progression. It is known that Face Dancers were used primarily as a form of entertainment, "performing" for people. If this is how they were first introduced, the shock and awe would eventually wear off at some point. As the people became more comfortable with the Face Dancer presence, the Tleilaxu became more bold with their application.

Remember, the Tleilaxu have portrayed themselves as clumsy idiots for so long, who would suspect them of doing anything nefarious?

georgiedenbro
Posts: 761
Joined: 11 Jun 2014 13:56
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby georgiedenbro » 11 Oct 2016 10:45

AnEhforanEh wrote:
georgiedenbro wrote:What surprises me is how easily people accepted the existence of face dancers even back in DM.

It always seemed to me that it was a natural progression. It is known that Face Dancers were used primarily as a form of entertainment, "performing" for people. If this is how they were first introduced, the shock and awe would eventually wear off at some point. As the people became more comfortable with the Face Dancer presence, the Tleilaxu became more bold with their application.

Remember, the Tleilaxu have portrayed themselves as clumsy idiots for so long, who would suspect them of doing anything nefarious?


Right. But in light of the animosity towards outright genetic engineering, I would think that creating an outright new species would be a major outrage, like Ix releasing Windows 10. The BG method of genetic 'engineering' involved a form of farming but never manipulation of cells and DNA by mechanical instruments. But the BT wasn't getting away with it by a loophole; it was just a blatant act of biotech. As to them being seen as clumsy idiots, those aware of the market knew they were also producing twisted mentats and who knows what else, which is no minor trick and nothing to laugh at. Ix and Richesse got away with pushing boundaries because of the market for their inventions, and because no doubt the Emperor himself benefited from their efforts just as Leto II later did. That would give them a bit of a pass in terms of the kind of work they do, as long as they didn't go too far. But why would anyone give the BT a free pass on human engineering? It didn't seem like the royalty had much to do with them such that their work was considered necessary by those in power. That's pretty much the part that surprises me.
"um-m-m-ah-h-h-hm-m-m-m!"

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18157
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby Freakzilla » 11 Oct 2016 12:52

I guess because face dancers looked recognizably human despite being biologically constructed tools.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

AnEhforanEh
Posts: 62
Joined: 24 Sep 2016 02:54

Re: A thought regarding the dynamic duo releasing FH's notes

Postby AnEhforanEh » 18 Oct 2016 08:49

@georgiedenbro
Ah, I see what you mean. The BJ wasn't exactly a pure luddite movement as it only targeted machines that supplanted/emulated human thought. Spaceships, lasguns, projectors... all survived the revolution. With that said, the "tanks" used to produce gholas/FDs wouldn't necessarily break the proscriptions... but the Face Dancers themselves, being little more than puppets of the masters, could be seen as a type of "thinking machine." Like Freak said, the fact they appear outwordly human is probaby the biggest distinction. That, and our first glimpse of a Face Dancer (Scytale) shows them to be quite independant, intelligent, and very "human."


Return to “˲”