Mentats of Dune

Image
    Abandon all sanity ye who enter here

Moderators: ᴶᵛᵀᴬ, Omphalos, Freakzilla

User avatar
Naïve mind
Posts: 388
Joined: 26 Aug 2012 05:58

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Naïve mind » 15 Mar 2014 04:08

Ampoliros wrote:Venport...the "good guy", has a growing monopoly, and yet no where in Dune does it ever mention the Guild being owned by anyone. Or having any kind of conflict with the Jihad. Or anyone ever mentioning ever that spaceships went against the Jihad. Probably because the Jihad didn't have any problem with human navigators using their own minds to do the heavy work. There certainly wasn't any problem with mechanical technology that helped with physical labor.

No bad guys bad, capitalist good. technology bad...except spaceships which are a necessary evil.


At the risk of sounding like I'm defending something that's not worth defending, when the Jihadis seized power in my country, more than four hundred years ago, they smashed all statues and ground the pieces to dust - Thou shalt make no graven image! And whited over all murals. Obviously they've mellowed a lot since then, and today, their theological descendants tend to keep their iconoclastic tendencies to themselves.

When you ride the wave of violence, even towards nobler shores, its crest is going to a place of confusion, violence and turmoil.

Radical Jihadis opposing something on principle until they find out doing so is completely inpractical? That's the story of human history.

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby lotek » 15 Mar 2014 06:54

No one is contesting the violence inherent to the Jihad, let alone the books themselves.
What we don't agree on is that stoopid version of good vs bad (which goes against what Dune tells us about absolutes), and that manages to even get the simple version wrong by making the Butlerians the bad guys.

The Butlerian Jihad was about freeing the human mind from the laziness brought by thinking machines, leading to stagnation. (my own mental shortcut for it)
And that idiot makes them the bad guys ffs...

At least the good news is that now he's lost it, it's not Dune he's defiling anymore, just his own twisted version he manages to mess up even more.
Spice is the worm's gonads.

User avatar
Naïve mind
Posts: 388
Joined: 26 Aug 2012 05:58

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Naïve mind » 15 Mar 2014 07:29

lotek wrote:The Butlerian Jihad was about freeing the human mind from the laziness brought by thinking machines, leading to stagnation.


Well, that's the rationalized version, told to the readers thousands of years later by the intellectual upper crust descended from the victors of that conflict.

Just like today, many people will tell you that the Roman Empire oppressed and persecuted Christians, when the only reason Christianity is remembered at all today is the fact that the Roman Empire turned it into a sanctioned and enforced state religion.

User avatar
Jodorowsky's Acolyte
Posts: 370
Joined: 10 Jul 2010 10:55

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 15 Mar 2014 09:03

Naïve mind wrote:
lotek wrote:The Butlerian Jihad was about freeing the human mind from the laziness brought by thinking machines, leading to stagnation.


Well, that's the rationalized version, told to the readers thousands of years later by the intellectual upper crust descended from the victors of that conflict.

Just like today, many people will tell you that the Roman Empire oppressed and persecuted Christians, when the only reason Christianity is remembered at all today is the fact that the Roman Empire turned it into a sanctioned and enforced state religion.


I with Naive Mind. It's quite probable that the Butlerian Jihad was sparked due to a beer shortage among the human population, or by a few scoundrels who just wanted to cause damage to machine establishment out of boredom.
'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky

User avatar
Serkanner
Posts: 2833
Joined: 17 Feb 2008 18:44
Location: Den Haag - The Netherlands

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Serkanner » 15 Mar 2014 13:17

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:
Naïve mind wrote:
lotek wrote:The Butlerian Jihad was about freeing the human mind from the laziness brought by thinking machines, leading to stagnation.


Well, that's the rationalized version, told to the readers thousands of years later by the intellectual upper crust descended from the victors of that conflict.

Just like today, many people will tell you that the Roman Empire oppressed and persecuted Christians, when the only reason Christianity is remembered at all today is the fact that the Roman Empire turned it into a sanctioned and enforced state religion.


I with Naive Mind. It's quite probable that the Butlerian Jihad was sparked due to a beer shortage among the human population, or by a few scoundrels who just wanted to cause damage to machine establishment out of boredom.


I don't think that is what Naïve Mind is saying at all to be honest.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

User avatar
Naïve mind
Posts: 388
Joined: 26 Aug 2012 05:58

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Naïve mind » 15 Mar 2014 13:49

But to be honest, I like his idea better. From this time, of course, springs the Litany Against Beer, remembered by the Bene Gesserit only in a corrupted form.

User avatar
Ampoliros
Posts: 2518
Joined: 14 Mar 2008 11:22
Location: I think we took a wrong turn...

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 15 Mar 2014 14:30

Its exactly that...a situation that has multiple sides to it has been reduced to BLACK and WHITE, except that it is so multi dimensional it doesn't even work in the hack's book. They even mention briefly (only once) that the Jihad shouldn't have a problem with Venhold's side, because he uses human navigators. The sad part is that this is basically interior monologue fluff that was essentially just filler when its an entire facing of the argument.

Even the sisterhood is split. Ironically, the Separatist sisterhood that betrayed them are called Orthodox...which actually seems to be more a dig at us rather than what? They are Orthodox because they agree with the Jihad? Or just betrayed them to the Jihad? I can't remember, it happened in the first book and I really don't want to go look it up again. Like I said this feels less like it was written by someone who doesn't care and more like someone who is legitimately insane. They are just called Orthodox and they are on the wrong (?) side.

KJA's psychopathic dick stroking is also bringing back the whole "Fenring Family Assassins" (as seen in PoD, as seen in Hellhole...) with a Orthodox Bene Gesserit Truthsayer and her soon to be boyfriend Suk Doctor from the (I shit you not) "Scalpel" school that trains Suk Doctors to be torturer...sorry "Interrogators" who, yes, kill to many of the people they 'interrogate'.

Cymeks are coming back. Venhold's Scientist is gonna do it. Brains in Jars will make super cymeks because they are the brains of failed navigators.

More psychopathic evidence: KJA just will not let go with "Santorum" being the fucking messiah that will create the Dune Universe as we know it. It seems like KJA is writing him to be a hero, and anytime Brian gets a word in he has to remind us that Santorum was a psychopathic emotionless murdering shitbag. Still Santorum is creating the Mentats, and he's about to create some kind of Ultra Mentat-Reverend Mother awesome sauce...These scenes are disturbing to me because it feels like statutory rape (without the actual sexual contact) Santorum sneaks micro speakers into Anna Corrino's room and whispers to her at night...apparently she can't tell the difference because of both OM and she's been hearing voices her whole life...

(if you remember from the sisterhood notes, I refuse to call the crossdressing robot by the name they give him out of reverence for the historical figure he was named after.)

Another thing, as soon as they mentioned Vorian's infected toe it set off red flags in my brain that this might be another THEME that shows up ridiculously over and over. It is. Nevermind that Vorian's story so far seems to have absolutely no point at all, other than to mention spice and Arrakis. I think I'll name my final review "Vorian's Infected Toe of Dune"

I'm about 100 pages in, with two Vorian chapters and he hasn't thought of, mentioned or warned anyone about the two psychotic terminator robots he fought in the last book. I mean they did get swallowed by a worm, which I'm fully expecting to see return in some kind of borg worm fashion, but he has thought about Griffin a couple of times and laments his death, but no mention of the terminators at all.
Semper Fidelis Tyrannosaurus

User avatar
SandRider
Watermaster
Posts: 6163
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
Location: In the back of your mind. Always.
Contact:

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby SandRider » 15 Mar 2014 20:57

but there's dragons, right?
please tell me there are dragons ....

I so want the set-up for a Dragonriders of Dune series ....
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008

User avatar
Ampoliros
Posts: 2518
Joined: 14 Mar 2008 11:22
Location: I think we took a wrong turn...

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 15 Mar 2014 21:21

well there are "swamp-dragons" but they are basically just alligators with poison fangs.

Here's a real gem for you though:

"Do you not have tribes? Rivalries?"
"Of course," said Taref. "All of us do. I am the son of a Naib."
"The third son of a Naib." Lillis said.
"Because of my two older brothers, I will never rule the tribe."
Semper Fidelis Tyrannosaurus

User avatar
SandRider
Watermaster
Posts: 6163
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
Location: In the back of your mind. Always.
Contact:

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby SandRider » 15 Mar 2014 22:44

tell me again how Keith is the Biggest Dune Fan Ever
and Brian compiled a Concordance to assure continuity ...
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby lotek » 16 Mar 2014 09:50

Image

It's very likely I heard of this here.
Spice is the worm's gonads.

User avatar
Jodorowsky's Acolyte
Posts: 370
Joined: 10 Jul 2010 10:55

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 16 Mar 2014 11:32

SandRider wrote:tell me again how Keith is the Biggest Dune Fan Ever
and Brian compiled a Concordance to assure continuity ...


You have to go to Imagination Land in order to find a copy of the Dune Concordance. That's the only way I got it, with a little imagination.

lotek wrote:Image

It's very likely I heard of this here.


Looks like an intriguing online game. The wings suggest a bit of Lovecraft's influence, next the influence of Dune and Tremors. So it's called Effing Worms, eh? Better check it out. :)
'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky

User avatar
SandRider
Watermaster
Posts: 6163
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
Location: In the back of your mind. Always.
Contact:

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby SandRider » 17 Mar 2014 16:04

trolling the Amazon Basement just ain't what it used to be ....

did get a bite from Doctor Torkos, tho ...
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008

User avatar
Ampoliros
Posts: 2518
Joined: 14 Mar 2008 11:22
Location: I think we took a wrong turn...

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 17 Mar 2014 16:49

I think it shows that nobody cares about these at all. Haven't seen much even from the hack himself, just the tour dates. It doesn't even look like its getting shilled that much either.

Is it telling that we haven't seen a post from him about it being on the NYT BS list? You decide.

Just looked on the amazon site and someone made the mistake of posting a review just to respond to Sandrider, claiming to be one of the people who checks for inconsistencies...

I kindly responded that announcing that publically was a mistake and invited them here
Semper Fidelis Tyrannosaurus

User avatar
SandRider
Watermaster
Posts: 6163
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
Location: In the back of your mind. Always.
Contact:

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby SandRider » 17 Mar 2014 17:58

that was Torkos, the Hungarian Vampire that produced
the incredible piece of tangled-up goo called the "Dune
Timeline" on the Dune Wiki ....
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008

User avatar
Omphalos
Inglorious Bastard
Posts: 6636
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 11:07
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Omphalos » 17 Mar 2014 19:11

Torkos is the "Dune PhD" that the hack was going on about in years past.

I think he is an Opthamologiet or something. Maybe a Doctor of Optometry. Not sure which, but his crentials have nothing to do with Dune or literature, as the hack implied.

User avatar
Serkanner
Posts: 2833
Joined: 17 Feb 2008 18:44
Location: Den Haag - The Netherlands

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Serkanner » 18 Mar 2014 02:50

Naïve mind wrote:But to be honest, I like his idea better. From this time, of course, springs the Litany Against Beer, remembered by the Bene Gesserit only in a corrupted form.


Litany Against Beer

I have a Beer litany T shirt :D
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

User avatar
Ampoliros
Posts: 2518
Joined: 14 Mar 2008 11:22
Location: I think we took a wrong turn...

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 18 Mar 2014 11:59

I'm surprised it took me this long for it to connect. I just realized that as much as the book goes on about how evil Torondo is, inciting the mob to violence and murder, I think Venport is worse.

Torondo is insane. An unconscious choice to burn and purge machines, no matter who gets in the way. BTW, when the Emperor's niece gets in the way and gets trampled, they do consider for a couple chapters that Torondo might need to be stopped.

Venport has been actively sabotaging his competitors to cause their ships to fail in flight (hence their atrocious safety records, or maybe that's covering up the sabotage, because there is no deeper level of consideration to consequence in a KJA book.)

Venport is doing it for a profit. A conscious choice to murder innocents to line his pockets.
Semper Fidelis Tyrannosaurus

D Pope
Posts: 1500
Joined: 14 May 2010 14:11
Location: Grubville

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby D Pope » 19 Mar 2014 03:07

There are a few comments at the TOR 'site.

http://www.tor.com/stories/2014/01/ment ... j-anderson

I rather like this one
21. MichaelWalsh wrote:In the early 90s a flyer was floating about at SF Cons announcing a forthcoming book:

10,191 years have passed since the creation of the Foundation, and the galaxy is in anarchy.

The massmind of Galaxia has collapsed from "impossible" internal turmoil. Known space is divided between warring kingdoms and petty empires, between religious sects and tyrannical guilds. And as for the Foundation...

The Foundation is dying.

But on the distant planet of Arrakis, a movement has taken hold.

A movement led by a supposed prophet named Muad'Dib. A movement that could reunite the galaxy.

If the Foundation can control him, it could mean the end of millennia of conflict.

And if they can't, it will ignite a galactic holy war.

JANET ASIMOV / BRIAN HERBERT
FOUNDATION AND DUNE
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
-Omphalos

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18164
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Freakzilla » 19 Mar 2014 06:19

:doh:
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
Omphalos
Inglorious Bastard
Posts: 6636
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 11:07
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Omphalos » 19 Mar 2014 11:53

I swear I had a dream years ago about the Empire, led by Duncan Idaho, getting into a war with the Tralfamadorians, led by Montana Wildhack. I woke up and called it The Inter-Mountain West War of Dune.

User avatar
Jodorowsky's Acolyte
Posts: 370
Joined: 10 Jul 2010 10:55

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 20 Mar 2014 02:11

Omphalos wrote:I swear I had a dream years ago about the Empire, led by Duncan Idaho, getting into a war with the Tralfamadorians, led by Montana Wildhack. I woke up and called it The Inter-Mountain West War of Dune.


My High Lord Omphalos, that is one of the single most awesome things I've seen you post. A crazy dream combining Dune and Slaughterhouse-Five is up my alley. Let me be your disciple! :bow-yellow:
'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky

User avatar
Ampoliros
Posts: 2518
Joined: 14 Mar 2008 11:22
Location: I think we took a wrong turn...

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 21 Mar 2014 14:07

Well I found the rare +1 in this book, but its more of a +.1

Taref, the Freeman who got some of his buddies to go off world and work for Venport is sent back to try and recruit more Freemen to come work as saboteurs for Venport*. (No, this isn't the +1 part)

When he gets home, wearing his superior offworld stillsuit (KJA just won't let that one go...) his Freemen family (Naib and two sons that are ahead of him in inheritance...) chastise him for all the right reasons.

However, they only kick him out, (and this is why its only a +.1) they don't kill him for selling Freemen for their water, or wearing a collar, or endangering the tribe, or failing to follow water discipline with an untrusted suit, or just plain being an idiot.

I give the rare plus because I was amazed that they even conceived of the Freemen saying No, and had a Fremen reason for it. It of course could have been purely accidental, or perhaps one of the 2-3 paragraphs in this book that Brian actually wrote.

This +1 is annihilated by the micro-plot that has the Emperor's Truthsayer facing off against the Emperor's Suk Scalpel Interrogator to see who is better at their job. They decide to let the Truthsayer go first, since the Scalpel doctor too often kills his subjects.

The truthsayer uncovers that the Suk Scalpel doctor was intentionally killing off his subjects to sell their organs on the black market, and that the Empress was in on it.

So the Emperor hands the Suk Scalpel over to his own interrogation team, who find out the Empress was blackmailing him into being her lover, and then they kill him and sell his organs.

I swear everyone in this book reads like a small businessman. There is NO scale.

You know, its even more ironic that Keith can't comprehend scale when he's dictating this while hiking in the fucking Rocky Mountains. Then again, he spends most of the time in his own head and with that caveat, there can be no accurate scale.

*they hire young Freeman, disguise their eyes, and train them how to sabotage a space-folder ship in a manner that looks like an accident, because the young Freemen hooligans seem to enjoy destroying their spice harvesters, so they must be good at it. Y'know, rather than:

1.Bribing people who already work on the ship
2. Outright buying the company or offering a merger, which they do to another company that is on its last leg.
3. Getting their own engineers/spies to do it.

"Turning his back on the sietch that did not want him, Taref worked his way across the desert back to Arrakis City. The weeklong trek was ardous, and the desert austere and uncomfortable, but he endured the deprivation."
Semper Fidelis Tyrannosaurus

User avatar
Redstar
Posts: 1184
Joined: 25 Feb 2009 04:13

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Redstar » 21 Mar 2014 17:22

Ampoliros wrote:The truthsayer uncovers that the Suk Scalpel doctor was intentionally killing off his subjects to sell their organs on the black market, and that the Empress was in on it.

So the Emperor hands the Suk Scalpel over to his own interrogation team, who find out the Empress was blackmailing him into being her lover, and then they kill him and sell his organs.

I swear everyone in this book reads like a small businessman. There is NO scale.

Just to be clear, there is no deeper motivation for selling organs on the black market? It's just the Suk "Scalpel" trying to make some extra cash? There's not "man in the shadows" orchestrating this for some nefarious purpose?

I also feel like human organ transplants are probably taboo in some circles of post-Butlerian Jihad society.

User avatar
Ampoliros
Posts: 2518
Joined: 14 Mar 2008 11:22
Location: I think we took a wrong turn...

Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 22 Mar 2014 00:26

Redstar wrote:
Ampoliros wrote:The truthsayer uncovers that the Suk Scalpel doctor was intentionally killing off his subjects to sell their organs on the black market, and that the Empress was in on it.

So the Emperor hands the Suk Scalpel over to his own interrogation team, who find out the Empress was blackmailing him into being her lover, and then they kill him and sell his organs.

I swear everyone in this book reads like a small businessman. There is NO scale.

Just to be clear, there is no deeper motivation for selling organs on the black market? It's just the Suk "Scalpel" trying to make some extra cash? There's not "man in the shadows" orchestrating this for some nefarious purpose?

I also feel like human organ transplants are probably taboo in some circles of post-Butlerian Jihad society.


Oh no, this is KJA. its not even as deep as 'making some cash' its 'i need a micro-plot for a chapter'. He needed to fill 4 pages for a chapter. That is pretty much the entire reason.

the small Businessman/no-scale bit comes from everything being both HUGE and compact...like a suburb...at the same time. Or the fact that the Head Interrogator for the Emperor is so desperate for cash he apparently needs to sell black market organs... I mean the Emperor told his brother he wished he could increase his pay. HIS PAY. I fuckin swear KJA has probably at one point had to edit out the Emperor taking everyone to TGIF's. He probably had a great micro-plot where someone whined they weren't going to Olive Garden for endless breadsticks.

I've theorized that KJA writes with only the immediate moment your eyes are actually reading in mind, mostly as a result of dictation. He's talking into a recorder so he can't stop in the middle of a flow and look at the page to see what he just wrote. It also explains the repetition.

I've also recently been thinking about how these books get so many 5-star reviews and I think it simply that they do not threaten people's minds with thought. Frank's books made you think, and they made you work to read them, but they also made you love doing it. KJA doesn't make you work, heck the less you think the better it gets.
Semper Fidelis Tyrannosaurus


Return to “˲”