Mentats of Dune

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Tleszer
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Tleszer » 29 Mar 2014 07:20

Ampoliros wrote:Caladan has Sea Worms.


There's got to be a cream for that.
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Robspierre » 29 Mar 2014 09:53

Ampoliros wrote:Caladan has Sea Worms.



What the fuck??? Seriously, what the fuck? Caladan doesn't have worms! If they did, Paul would not of been nearly as fascinated by the worms of Arrakis when he was studying them before the Atreides left Caladan. There would of been a comment made about the differences between them!


Rob

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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 29 Mar 2014 12:57

Robspierre wrote:
Ampoliros wrote:Caladan has Sea Worms.



What the fuck??? Seriously, what the fuck? Caladan doesn't have worms! If they did, Paul would not of been nearly as fascinated by the worms of Arrakis when he was studying them before the Atreides left Caladan. There would of been a comment made about the differences between them!


Rob


There is so much wrong with this scene on so many many levels that I felt it was better to just say that one bit and be done with it. If it makes you feel better, Vor didn't know about them either, and he's lived on Caladan.
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Serkanner » 30 Mar 2014 05:48

Ampoliros wrote:Caladan has Sea Worms.


Wait. Wut?

You are joking, aren't you?
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby SandRider » 30 Mar 2014 21:14

You know he ain't. You ain't never seen Amp "joke" about the horrendous,
mind-twitching bullshit these two pickle-fuckers squeeze from their assholes
and paint "DUNE" all over.

hell, I member back several years ago, y'all told me Marty & Daniel were
actually ancient homogay robots ... I said, "Y'all are joking, right?"
But you weren't. Not at all.
now that was some fucked-up shit ...
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 30 Mar 2014 21:26

On Deck, Vor saw the rolling curve of a large marine animal that surfaced far off, then descended. Moments later, the back of another creature rolled through the water, extending a triangular fin the size of a warehouse door, before gliding back beneath the surface. Vor didn't recognize the species.
He called down into the engine compartment, "We have visitors--Several animals. Big ones"
..."Not Good" William said. "That's all one animal--an Alada sea snake, the largest I've ever seen."


Alada. Missing a C and an N.

"they usually stay deep," Orry ran inside the cabin and returned with three rifles. "I've heard they can drag down whole boats."
"Lets hope that's not true." Vor took one of the rifles from Orry, and Willem took another. As they watched the curves of the dark sea snake ripple up and down, part of the beast's back lifted to buffet the boat, and Willem fired two rounds at it.

Puffs of blood spurted from the think hide, and the serpent's body flinched away, then struck the hull again more aggressively. Off the port side, Vor saw the monster's head surface--it seemed impossibly far away to be part of the same body. He fired at it several times, but the animal snapped its plated head back, and the shots missed.

The serpent collided with the boat and nearly capsized it, but the extended stablizers kept the vessel afloat. The beast then curved around, its head cutting a wake as it churned closer. Smelling the fishy stench of the creature, Vor continued to fire the rifle, hitting it this time, but not deterring the beast. Orry and Willem also peppered the sea snake with bullets. The serpent recoiled, but still circled the boat.

Vor heard a distant buzz in the sky and saw two aircraft approaching. Willem looked at his brother. "You called the Air Patrol? We could have fixed the boat ourselves."

Orry seemed embarrassed, "I thought I'd give the search-and-rescue some practice. Besides, we don't have the parts we need for the fuel system."

The wounded sea snake lunged at the boat again, ramming the hull with its armored head. Vor Heard wood splintering. "Put your pride away. I'm glad they are here."

The plane buzzed overhead and dropped concussion charges that made loud splashes in the water. the sea snake writhed and finally dipped beneath the waves to get away.

Feeling a wash of relief, Vor Let himself grin. "Thanks for an exciting outing boys."
...
"Glad you helped drive that sea snake away," Willem said. "Though we could have handled it on our own."
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby lotek » 31 Mar 2014 04:49

Feeling a wash of relief, Vor Let himself grin. "Thanks for an exciting outing boys."
...
"Glad you helped drive that sea snake away," Willem said. "Though we could have handled it on our own."


Outing and sea snake handling. They must have been surrounded by seamen.
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Serkanner » 31 Mar 2014 06:07

:cry:
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 31 Mar 2014 11:12

One of the things that makes this light-hearted joyous aquatic frivolity so wrong is that it takes place a few days after the two younger Atreides' father had been murdered and they had found his body floating while out working for the Caladan Air Patrol.

The Landsraad exists. But I haven't seen a single House that acts like one.

Again, they act like small businessmen working off a dock or a strip mall.
Again, the person who is writing this is doing it while hiking in the mountains, and the sense of scale is never consistent, correct, or even genuine.

Another gem for you:

Valya was the Sisterhood's Mother Superior now.
Valya Harkonnen.


emphasis theirs
and barring any horrible yet hilarious item I have to rush to post here, I should finish it today and post my full review.
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Frybread » 31 Mar 2014 15:58

Ampoliros wrote:One of the things that makes this light-hearted joyous aquatic frivolity so wrong is that it takes place a few days after the two younger Atreides' father had been murdered and they had found his body floating while out working for the Caladan Air Patrol.

The Landsraad exists. But I haven't seen a single House that acts like one.

Again, they act like small businessmen working off a dock or a strip mall.
Again, the person who is writing this is doing it while hiking in the mountains, and the sense of scale is never consistent, correct, or even genuine.

Another gem for you:

Valya was the Sisterhood's Mother Superior now.
Valya Harkonnen.


emphasis theirs
and barring any horrible yet hilarious item I have to rush to post here, I should finish it today and post my full review.


I look forward to your review. I'll never read the crap and I'm tired of the 4- and 5-star reviews on Amazon.

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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 31 Mar 2014 17:47

Frybread wrote:I look forward to your review. I'll never read the crap and I'm tired of the 4- and 5-star reviews on Amazon.


I'm certain that quite a few of those 5-star reviews are paid shills. More than half. One thing you can do is read the reviews and vote up or down the reviews which take time to make a point (regardless of how many stars they give). That puts the pointless shill reviews at the bottom and the people who actually took time to flesh out an opinion at the top.
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 31 Mar 2014 21:23

Ludicrous Twilight of Dune

Reading this book is like going on a commando raid at night, cutting your way through a forest with flamethrowers and light-enhancing goggles. And then, when you get to your destination, using the voice to force the people who came with you to do what they willingly came with you to do.

Perhaps I should have put a SPOILER in front of that. I'll just put it here. Spoiler's ahead.

In my review for Sisterhood of Dune I gave them the 'praise' that it was the best Dune book they had 'produced'. Aside from Dune 7's this is by far the worst. It ties up most of the storylines from Sisterhood setting up surprisingly little for the next book to do, however the way it ties them up, and the manner in which these books were setup just makes them even more pointless and essentially filler that creates a demand for it to supply. The next book is supposed to be "Swordmasters of Dune" which is an interesting choice considering we have only 1 major swordmaster character, and she's sworn her life to the Butlerians.

90% of what goes wrong in these books is due to there being maybe 2 characters that actually act in a 'rational' manner, but that is sadly par for the course. And by Rational I mean the know what they should do, but they don't do it until they are pretty much forced to.

I have to break this down by the different factions, and while I'm doing this I'd like you to think about who the protagonist is in this book.

The Butlerians are the same mindless, insane mob of fanatics they were in Sisterhood. Law where they are considered has been thrown out the window. Seriously, its not until a child of the royal family is trampled in the streets that anyone even considered trying to stop them in any serious manner. And what exactly do they want? "The mind of man is holy." And like all hypocritical fanatics they ignore some of the things they need and then destroy everything else. The level of acceptable tech varies widely depending on who and what the action is centered on.

The Bene Gesseritt--Oh god. FFS seriously these parts of the book are just atrocious. Essentially its the story of Mother Superior trying to bring the "Orthodox" sisters from Sisterhood back into the fold before she dies. Every chapter we're reminded about how close to death she is and how she's using all of her bodily control to stay alive. Except for the one chapter she feels revitalized and goes jogging. Truthsayers become the new ball to toss around, with everyone having to use 'clever' wording to get out of getting caught in a lie. Other than that one time a RM calls someone on a lie of omission. Everyone is super scared of the Truthsayers and they are 100% accurate as long as it doesn't interfere with the plot. But it only interferes with the plot twice.

Valya Harkonnen actually requires her own paragraph. She becomes Wonder Mother by being the first to create Voice. She then proceeds to use it on just about everyone else in the Sisterhood. I actually can't remember if she uses it on someone that isn't in the Sisterhood. She is dead set on becoming the new mother superior so she can use that power to ruin the Atreides. But she's totally 100% loyal to the Sisterhood. She just has to wait for the RM Superior to heal the breach...by threatening to kill herself. Yeah the one that is on death's door threatens to kill herself if they don't agree to reconcile. So they reconcile, the RMS tells Valya and the head of the Orthodox sisters she names them both as her successor and wants them to work together. She then gives all her OM to the Orthodox sister and dies. Valya then uses voice on her and makes her kill herself. She then tells all the Truthsayers the sister was distraught and killed herself. While being a straight up lie, they don't detect it. The Orthodox sisters use their own Truthsayers who also believe her and boom, Sisterhood is born.

Although. Lets think about this for a second. 1. Now they don't have the first RMS' OM. Cause she passed it on to someone who immediately died and had no children. Let me say this now, if a daughter of this person shows up with the OM...not only does it not work, its rather a grievous breech of their own damn story since the daughter was pretty damned pissed off about being abandoned by her birth mother and grandmother, who happened to be the RMS.

2. Valya can't share her memories or have kids that become RM's OR pass on her own memories to the next RMS. Why? I don't know, maybe its because then everyone would know she murdered the co-RMS and its her fault those memories weren't passed on. Its also a rather large and continuing problem, you know because of Other Memory.

The Mentats. Well the book is named after them, and a lot happens here. This is supposed to be a school to teach humans how to use there minds to make mental projections, which I've redefined as chin scratching, because not one of them makes a projection that wouldn't make a great "Thank you Captain Obvious" meme. Basically, John Wayne Gacy* creeps into Anna's room at night in something I basically read as child molestation or rape. Its not physical, its the mental kind of manipulation a child molester uses with something he sees as a toy. Knowing who John Wayne Gacy is, that is what is happening, but the authors want you to think that Gacy is actually the protagonist of the story. Seriously, they talk about him being a psychotic murdering d-bag like its a good thing. Or at least, no one he talks to cares that he's a PSYCHOPATHIC. MASS MURDERING. SLAVER. Nope, Gacy is the god-damn protagonist. They are all worried about someone finding out he's there at the school for some reason.... but none of the people they tell even think of him as anything other than a great and true friend. Then Eddard Stark gets decapitated for being honorable, flat out refusing refusing rescue, and Princess Child Abuse and (Khal) 'Draigo' escape into the forest before the Butlerians can 'keep their word' and not murder the entire school.

Did I mention that Albans had DAYS to evacuate the school or escape? No, better to wait for the Butlerians to come siege the school, appeal to the murderous psychotic barbarians with logic and emotion, which actually works.... then refuse to leave your cell when your best student breaks...sorry walks into camp and rescues you. And by cell I meant tent.

*I don't call him by the name they give him. He's a mass-murdering psychopathic child rapist, so John Wayne Gacy fits a lot better.

This book has a disturbing amount of gore-porn in it. And I'm not protesting its existence, it has its place. But here it feels like either
1. A Psychopathic writer using ink to get his jollies rather than on real people
2. A bad writer thinking that somehow horrific death/mangling will somehow make the story more edgy and mature.
3. A lazy editor who was watching Walking Dead, Saw, or Game of Thrones while they "edited".
4. All of the above.

Freemen. I'll just reiterate what I've said before: These Freemen make the Museum Fremen look like real Fremen in comparison. They wear collars and sell Fremen for their water. Then, they go emo about killing people and agree to go on one last mission to kill someone. Then in the middle of that mission they decide killing people really is wrong and quit.

Oh, and hey, the Landsraad exists...but where they might be something that would be IMPORTANT and could GET **** DONE. I think they are mentioned 2, maybe 3 times in the whole book. Not that it matters, every House we see seems to operate like a small business out of a strip mall. Aside from Directeur Venport who never uses his title but apparently has one, not one House seems to have ANY kind of feudal Lord status.

PS. Everyone sees both a dead Navigator and Norma attending the Imperial Court and while there are a few gasps, no one seems to make a big deal out of it. Other than the Butlerians, who are enraged that Venport would mutate humans to navigate a ship.

This one was really hard to finish, I literally had to take the day and sit down and force myself. I want to issue a challenge. Give me a page number, and I'll flip to it and find at least one thing wrong with the book either internally or within accepted Dune Canon.

I'm serious about that too.
Last edited by Ampoliros on 02 Apr 2014 21:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Tleszer » 31 Mar 2014 21:48

Wow. :shock: I'm so sorry you read that.

Since you're up for a challenge: page 435.
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 31 Mar 2014 22:36

Tleszer wrote:Wow. :shock: I'm so sorry you read that.

Since you're up for a challenge: page 435.


Page 435 is basically Mother Superior Valya doing an interior monologue wondering why Venport would be building up more military ships and how dumb the Emperor was to try and seize spice mining from Venport, then wondering what happened to the Emperor who had apparently disappeared after visiting a spice harvester and wondering if possibly Venport was bold enough to assassinate him (Yes, he did). Then she decides to use the Sisterhood to become a manipulator of politics to make everyone depend on them...

page 436 ...so she can maybe even one day put a Harkonnen on the throne.

FYI: Book is 446 pages.
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby lotek » 01 Apr 2014 05:31

Ampoliros wrote:use 'clever' wording to get out of getting caught in a lie.


the neither yes nor no game

(nb : is that the correct name for this game in English?)

Jeez' man, it reminds me of the times where someone will come round here and rant about all the hate and that it's been a while, guys, why can't you let it lie, etc.
Well, that's why.

Ampoliros wrote:In my review for Sisterhood of Dune I gave them the 'praise' that it was the best Dune book they had 'produced'. Aside from Dune 7's this is by far the worst.


Every single fucking time they push out a stinkier, smellier and stickier word conglomerate, and you can't help but to think of what could have been if the other monkey had won the race for the hlp...

Last edited by lotek on 01 Apr 2014 06:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Naïve mind » 01 Apr 2014 06:04

page 239

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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Freakzilla » 01 Apr 2014 06:58

Thanks for taking (another) one for the team, Amp. :clap:
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 01 Apr 2014 09:37

Naïve mind wrote:page 239


After arranging to provide the financial lifeline House Harkonnen needed to solidify its position, Vor had traveled again, wandering from place to place.
After that its just Vor's inner monologue about returning to Caladan after such a long time.
Yeah, Vor wants to heal the breach between the two families, so he anonymously invests money in their failing whaling industry.

Earlier in the book he even went and helped them run the whaling boat! The head of House Harkonnen acts as the captain on the boat...I mean they say in the book they have a whaling fleet, but in the same strip-mall small businessman fashion everything happens on a whaling boat that doesn't feel any bigger than any other fishing boat. Vor signs on (again anonymously) while visiting them, promising to work for free (his cover is as a journalist). He hangs out in their house and tries to get to know the family better. Later he totally doesn't recognize their daughter when she seduces and murders his great(x4) grandson. But hey he never met her, only saw a Family picture.
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Serkanner » 01 Apr 2014 14:08

How your eyes must bleed.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Frybread » 01 Apr 2014 19:28

Ampoliros wrote:
Naïve mind wrote:page 239


After arranging to provide the financial lifeline House Harkonnen needed to solidify its position, Vor had traveled again, wandering from place to place.
After that its just Vor's inner monologue about returning to Caladan after such a long time.
Yeah, Vor wants to heal the breach between the two families, so he anonymously invests money in their failing whaling industry.

Earlier in the book he even went and helped them run the whaling boat! The head of House Harkonnen acts as the captain on the boat...I mean they say in the book they have a whaling fleet, but in the same strip-mall small businessman fashion everything happens on a whaling boat that doesn't feel any bigger than any other fishing boat. Vor signs on (again anonymously) while visiting them, promising to work for free (his cover is as a journalist). He hangs out in their house and tries to get to know the family better. Later he totally doesn't recognize their daughter when she seduces and murders his great(x4) grandson. But hey he never met her, only saw a Family picture.


I haven't read McDune since I couldn't finish PoD but I don't understand what the hacks are trying to do with the Vorian storyline. I just never cared for the character.

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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 02 Apr 2014 01:26

The Vor storyline exists so we can have an Atreides in the book.
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Hunchback Jack » 02 Apr 2014 02:22

Amp, thanks for doing this. Really. And please don't be offended by what I'm about to say. It's no reflection on your writing, or lack of appreciation for you efforts, but ...

I can't bring myself to even read your comments about the book. That's how painfully bad the book is. Even though your descriptions of the plot and characters are intended to show how awful the book is, the awfulness they portray is too much for me to stand. I just bounce off. Not only is it not Dune, it's not good as fiction of any kind.

Maybe when I have steeled myself, I'll read through this thread again. Just to do your efforts justice.

How you brought yourself to read the actual book is beyond me. You're a better man, etc.

HBJ
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 02 Apr 2014 02:43

Paul and Winds and even Hellhole were easy and I gleefully tore them apart.

Sisterhood took work and Mentats was just hard. I think it comes from just how utterly pointless they are in the grand scheme of things.

I don't blame you for not reading even the comments.


Review is up on Amazon and Goodreads
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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 24 Apr 2014 00:46

After reviewing the new book, do you think it's probably about time for another BH+KJA parody contest?
'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky

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Re: Mentats of Dune

Postby Ampoliros » 25 Apr 2014 14:04

Soon...but for now its still an ember.

Honestly I don't think I'll do the next book...depends on how far off it is.

I sincerely think KJA is directly trolling the OH now in the books, just because he can.
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