Storytelling in the prequels.

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Postby Tleilax Master B » 14 Feb 2008 12:34

Freakzilla wrote:Yeah, I was the one asking about that.

I mean, if you were a relative of Brian and in the HLP even, I'd want to see it.


You're goddamn right I would. If I have a share in the profits of the partnership, I would want to make good and damn sure my investments were protected. I would insist on making a copy of everything and placing it in a secure location, such as a safety deposit box, etc.

Another thing, I would do a thorough review of everything in the notes and compare them to what KJA is writing and stating in interviews and make damn sure that there isn't anything fabricated. If that comes out later, and the HLP turns out to be phonies (yeah, "if" they turn out to be....) then the partnership is going to have very bad press and my shares in the partnership just went down in value. That don't pay da bills......
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Postby Freakzilla » 14 Feb 2008 13:08

I can understand wanting to trust your family, but they are after all just people, with all the foibles that entails. I would want to see them just to secure my own reputation before I went defending their claims.

Not to mention my own curiosity as a Dune fan.

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Postby GamePlayer » 14 Feb 2008 13:20

What is up with the secrecy/controls around these Frank Herbert notes? It makes no sense.

There is a market out there that would pay good money to get their hands on Frank Herbert's notes. Ergo, the HLP is sitting on another gold mine that they could use to make money.

Further, KJA and BH have said numerous times they don't care about those horrible "talifans" and their "evil" opinions. So there would be no harm in publishing the notes even if they happened to contradict the prequels since KJA/BH have said they don't care.

Lastly, no one else cares either! Sales of the prequel books will not be affected by publishing Frank Herbert's notes and they have to know it. You think people are going to stop buying Dune prequel books because some "talifans" have been vindicated for their negative opinions? No one cares!

So that returns us to the beginning. Why not publish? Does the HLP really have so little confidence in the worth of their prequel products that they fear sales can be derailed by fans posting "I hate KJA/BH" on the internet? Are KJA/BH actually lying and is it possible they really do care what "talifans" say about them? Suddenly the events on dunenovels.com seem more revealing than a thousand back-slapping interviews.

In the absence of any plausible word from the horses mouth, people are left feeling two things: pissed off and curious. No one from the HLP is saying anything, so we're left to assume the worst. Speaking of plausible...

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Postby Freakzilla » 14 Feb 2008 13:46

GamePlayer wrote:Are KJA/BH actually lying and is it possible they really do care what "talifans" say about them?


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Postby GamePlayer » 14 Feb 2008 14:14

Oh so very appropriate :)

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Postby Simon » 14 Feb 2008 22:05

Omphalos wrote:Family heirloom? Bullshit. Probably every book in Frank's library is sitting in a public library in Florence, Oregon. Every scrap he wrote in his professional career is in the special Frank Herbert collection at the University of California Fullerton, with the exception of a few mystery stories he wrote under a pseudonym that he did not ever want revealed.


They supposedly found thousands of pages of notes, but almost everything in the Road to Dune was taken from what they photocopied at the collection at Fullerton, while snubbing McNeilly at the same time regarding the encyclopedia and his relationship with Frank. Real classy...


Mr. Teg, fix this please.

I am in total disagreement here and don't wish anyone to think I support these views. At the end of the day the disk belongs to them. They can do what they want with it. (just my opinion)

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Postby Freakzilla » 14 Feb 2008 23:09

I fixed it.
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Postby SandChigger » 15 Feb 2008 02:05

Simon wrote:At the end of the day the disk belongs to them. They can do what they want with it.

Yeah...and if they're not going to release the contents, I've a few suggestions for what they can do with it, both individually (in series) and collectively. Just MY opinion.
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Postby GodEmperorJason » 15 Feb 2008 03:04

You're goddamn right I would. If I have a share in the profits of the partnership, I would want to make good and damn sure my investments were protected. I would insist on making a copy of everything and placing it in a secure location, such as a safety deposit box, etc.


That didn't work last time, look who found them!
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Postby Tleilax Master B » 15 Feb 2008 10:28

SandChigger wrote:
Simon wrote:At the end of the day the disk belongs to them. They can do what they want with it.

Yeah...and if they're not going to release the contents, I've a few suggestions for what they can do with it, both individually (in series) and collectively. Just MY opinion.


Hehe, that's exactly what I was thinking. That is certainly MY view as well.
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Postby Simon » 15 Feb 2008 17:37

SandChigger wrote:
Simon wrote:At the end of the day the disk belongs to them. They can do what they want with it.

Yeah...and if they're not going to release the contents, I've a few suggestions for what they can do with it, both individually (in series) and collectively. Just MY opinion.


:lol: ow!

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Postby Simon » 15 Feb 2008 17:41

Freakzilla wrote:I fixed it.


Thanks Freak!

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Postby Mr. Teg » 15 Feb 2008 21:17

Simon wrote:
Omphalos wrote:Family heirloom? Bullshit. Probably every book in Frank's library is sitting in a public library in Florence, Oregon. Every scrap he wrote in his professional career is in the special Frank Herbert collection at the University of California Fullerton, with the exception of a few mystery stories he wrote under a pseudonym that he did not ever want revealed.


They supposedly found thousands of pages of notes, but almost everything in the Road to Dune was taken from what they photocopied at the collection at Fullerton, while snubbing McNeilly at the same time regarding the encyclopedia and his relationship with Frank. Real classy...


Mr. Teg, fix this please.



Ah, got it. Sandchigger explained on the phone.
Btw. wasn't intentional.
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Postby Simon » 15 Feb 2008 21:49

I know man, I wasn't angery with you or anything, I just really disagree on this point and don't want any confusion on that :lol:

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Postby SandChigger » 15 Feb 2008 23:37

Omphalos wrote:Family heirloom? Bullshit. Probably every book in Frank's library is sitting in a public library in Florence, Oregon. Every scrap he wrote in his professional career is in the special Frank Herbert collection at the University of California Fullerton, with the exception of a few mystery stories he wrote under a pseudonym that he did not ever want revealed.

I assume, Simon, that the point you disagree on is what I have bolded, right?

Omph, what's your source for the other two points?

1. Frank's personal library being donated to a Florence public library
2. The scope of the Fullerton collection

Serious question, since this is something I know very little about.
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Postby Omphalos » 16 Feb 2008 00:26

SandChigger wrote:
Omphalos wrote:Family heirloom? Bullshit. Probably every book in Frank's library is sitting in a public library in Florence, Oregon. Every scrap he wrote in his professional career is in the special Frank Herbert collection at the University of California Fullerton, with the exception of a few mystery stories he wrote under a pseudonym that he did not ever want revealed.

I assume, Simon, that the point you disagree on is what I have bolded, right?

Omph, what's your source for the other two points?

1. Frank's personal library being donated to a Florence public library


Here is a link to a Florence, Oregon local newspaper article with the details of Penny Merritt's bequest of Frank Herbert's personal library to the Florence Public Library. Here is a link to the library itself.


SandChigger wrote:2. The scope of the Fullerton collection


Here is a link to the Frank Herbert archives at UC Fullerton. This is not the website of the special collections library. Rather it is a listing of what is held by the library in the FH special collection. I have a link somewhere where McNelly says that he personally solicited the material from FH. Now that I think of it, it may be in McNelly's introduction blurb to Herbert's epic poem, Carthag, Reflections of a Martian Dream. I have Mars, We Love You, where it was originally published. Ill look there tonight too. I may have exaggerated when I said "every scrap," but I not far off. Ill look for that link, as I could not find it here tonight.



SandChigger wrote:Serious question, since this is something I know very little about.


We are here to learn and share, my bug.


EDIT: Its not in Mars, We Love you. I suspect it may be in an article on the NcNelly tribute site. I'll keep looking for the cite to where McNelly says that he personally solicited FH's materials for the library and urged him to be complete in what he donated. Maybe Spice Grandson knows where it is.

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Postby Omphalos » 16 Feb 2008 03:32

Chig, here is the article that I was referring to above. If you want to see the entire original, go here. This copy is excised, and the emphasis is mine.

SCIENCE FICTION IN THE FULLERTON LIBRARY
by Dr. Willis E. McNelly
Professor of English, Emeritus

* * * * *

Frank Herbert's Dune was a new book in the late 1960s. Already a major popular success, it was beginning to attract readers from the mainstream who were interested in the ecological precepts Herbert championed. During our first meeting in 1967, he asked if we were interested in acquiring the various manuscripts of Dune, the novel which eventually became the first in what Herbert later termed "The Dune Chronicles." Interested? I fairly jumped at the opportunity. Thus a few months later I visited Herbert in the Bay area where he was then living, spent several days with him and his wife Beverly, and returned to Cal State with a car trunk full of manuscripts. I was exultant. We had the complete original manuscript of Dune and a carbon copy of his typescript of the then unpublished "Dune II," later called Dune Messiah.

Most notable among the many boxes of his papers which I brought back to Fullerton was not only the first draft of Dune, that fine novel, but the second, third, and fourth drafts as well. Originally typewritten on yellow 8x14 foolscap, the first draft was complete with typed strikeovers, bold x's deleting entire paragraphs, penciled notations, marginalia of all kinds--questions marks, notes to himself in various colored inks--suggestions for change, expansion or emendation, and so on. It would be invaluable to scholars. (A close examination of his planning notes revealed that early in the planning stages of the book, Herbert intended that the hero of the novel be Liet-Kynes, the planetary ecologist of Arrakis, the planet known as Dune. Only later did he change Paul Atreides from the relatively minor role of a 12-year-old boy to the off-world messiah-hero of the novel). We were given setting copies, galley proofs, page proofs--all the notes and plans of what many critics consider to be the best SF novel ever written. In addition, Herbert gave us the carefully preserved manuscripts of all of his fiction and much of his non-fiction writing from the beginning of his career. Altogether, it was a magnificent contribution.

Most interesting of all was the file of rejection letters from publishers who though Dune too long, too complicated, or too intricately plotted to publish. Indeed, one publisher, who must remain nameless, was quite correct when he wrote to Herbert, "I may be making a serious mistake, perhaps the mistake of the decade, but . . ." and then rejected the book. One wonders what he feels today. In contrast, editor John W. Campbell's eight or ten page single-spaced acceptance letter of Dune for "Analog" is remarkable for its insights into the problems faced by Herbert in creating a teen-age superhero. Such fascinating tidbits abound in the boxes of papers we acquired.

* * * * *

All of the writing from the nearly 50 authors whose work we had acquired had to be preserved. Some of it was in precarious condition and certainly none of it had been written on acid-free paper. Even the 8 x 14 yellowed pages of the first draft of Dune had been crumpled and folded to fit an 8 1/2 x 11 folder. The problem of preservation was eventually solved, at least temporarily, with acid-proof document boxes. Even pulp paper kept in one of these boxes would last for many decades, perhaps for centuries. However, using plastic envelopes to safeguard each individual issue of each pulp magazine can be only a temporary expedient. In other words, the question of microfilming the entire very extensive SF collection must still be addressed.

In order to solve one of the problems--overall classification--connected with the Herbert collection, Frank's wife, Beverly Herbert (who died in 1984) worked with Linda Herman to catalog and classify this marvelous donation. Together they decided to assign Opus numbers for ready reference and access, as well as making easier the question of their contents. Thus, Dune is Opus 25, for example, and the total extends to Opus 82.

In later years, before his untimely death in 1986, Frank Herbert continued sending Special Collections similar material for all of his later writings, working closely with Sharon Perry, now head of Special Collections. It is an extraordinary collection, and recent major donations by his widow, Theresa Shackleford, have amplified it considerably. For example, not only did she send us all of Herbert's personal copies of his books, both hardback and paperback, including The Dune Chronicles in every language in which they have been published, but in early 1991 she shipped to Fullerton 34 large boxes which contain, among many valuable items, Herbert's business correspondence, as well as his research for and copies of the many essays he wrote for "California Living" when he was a working journalist in the Bay area.

It can safely be said that no scholar will ever be able to write anything substantive about Herbert's career without consulting the Herbert Archives. Two books about Herbert utilizing the materials in Special Collections have already been published, and more are on the way. One of The Dune Encyclopedia which I compiled for Berkeley/Putnam in 1983, and the other was William Touponce's Frank Herbert written for the Twayne American Authors Series and published in 1988. Touponce spent considerable time in Fullerton working with the Archives. One young man came all the way from Singapore to consult the Herbert collection in preparation for writing his Ph.D. dissertation. With copies of the screenplay of the filmed version of the novel now safely in the vault, together with dozens of audio tapes of interviews and lectures, the Herbert Archives can now accurately be termed definitive.

While the Herbert Archives at Fullerton are the "star of the show," so to speak, they are followed in importance by the Philip K. Dick collection.

* * * * *

Fortunately, we had no similar problems with the extensive Herbert papers also sent to us on the same "permanent loan" basis. Shortly before his untimely death, Herbert assured me that he had made provisions in his will that we could keep The Herbert Archives, and in fact, his son Brian Herbert, also a writer, has expressed a desire to visit Fullerton to learn something of their extent and contents, assuring me that the estate is pleased that they are being preserved so well for posterity.

It is impossible, of course, to estimate the number of volumes of SF contained on the open shelves of the library. Part of the difficulty is inherent in the definition of SF itself. Should classic fantasy be included? Or books by such so-called "mainstream" authors as Kingsley Amis, John Hersey, Herman Wouk, or Thomas Pynchon to say nothing of H. G. Wells? No matter: Suffice it to say that the total is in the thousands, perhaps even in the tens of thousands. And as for paperbacks, the count is several thousands and still climbing.

Willis E. McNelly

Copyright © by Willis E. McNelly
All rights reserved.

Referring source page.

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Postby SandChigger » 16 Feb 2008 06:36

Thanks, Omph. Above and beyond the call! (As usual.) :D

Kinda makes you wonder, though, what was left over in all those garage attic boxes, no? I wonder if Brian has actually cataloged it all.

Next, I suppose comes Teg's assertion that almost everything in TRtD comes from the Fullerton Collection....
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Postby SandChigger » 16 Feb 2008 08:13

Actually, after I posted that, I pulled out The Road to Dune and did a little calculating.

When you really get down to it, the book is pretty much a rip off. Of the 494 pages, 319 are text written by Brian and Kevin, leaving only 175 or so by Frank Herbert. (It's even less than that, because it looks like about a quarter to a third of the text in the letters section is connective text written by Brian, I assume.)

"Spice Planet" (234 pp) is virtually worthless without inclusion of the actual materials written for it by FH. And the four short stories at the end (85 pp)...while it was big of them to include them in one book instead of just as bonuses on the end of the paperbacks (another marketing ploy?)...really have nothing to do with FH and his composition of Dune.

65% of the book, then, is the same ole BH/KJA crap.

Bu$ine$$ a$ u$ual.
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Postby Freakzilla » 16 Feb 2008 09:55

Hey, at least RtD had some FH content. More than you can say about their other books.

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Postby Mr. Teg » 16 Feb 2008 10:17

SandChigger wrote:Actually, after I posted that, I pulled out The Road to Dune and did a little calculating.

When you really get down to it, the book is pretty much a rip off. Of the 494 pages, 319 are text written by Brian and Kevin, leaving only 175 or so by Frank Herbert. (It's even less than that, because it looks like about a quarter to a third of the text in the letters section is connective text written by Brian, I assume.)

"Spice Planet" (234 pp) is virtually worthless without inclusion of the actual materials written for it by FH. And the four short stories at the end (85 pp)...while it was big of them to include them in one book instead of just as bonuses on the end of the paperbacks (another marketing ploy?)...really have nothing to do with FH and his composition of Dune.

65% of the book, then, is the same ole BH/KJA crap.

Bu$ine$$ a$ u$ual.


And of the remaining 35% (including the outline for Spice Planet) mostly from Fullerton if not all. So much for the treasure trove of thousands of pages of Franks notes and outlines... :roll:

Ripping off McNeilly's work...real classy bunch at the HLP!
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Postby Simon » 18 Mar 2008 01:38

SandChigger wrote:
Omphalos wrote:Family heirloom? Bullshit. Probably every book in Frank's library is sitting in a public library in Florence, Oregon. Every scrap he wrote in his professional career is in the special Frank Herbert collection at the University of California Fullerton, with the exception of a few mystery stories he wrote under a pseudonym that he did not ever want revealed.

I assume, Simon, that the point you disagree on is what I have bolded, right?

Omph, what's your source for the other two points?

1. Frank's personal library being donated to a Florence public library
2. The scope of the Fullerton collection

Serious question, since this is something I know very little about.


Not really, I'd love to see the notes like anyone but am not as... adamant (?) about it as Omph. My concern above (old hat tho it is now) was where Teg accidentally mis-posted.

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Postby Simon » 18 Mar 2008 02:04

To the topic of the story telling style:

I've been reading the Saga of the Seven Suns and it is really quite good! I know you bastards think I'm some KJA "fanboy", in fact until now I'd only read his Dune stuff and I dare say I like SotSS as much as I like the Nu-Dune (though admittedly it doesnt touch DUNE but then what does?).

I'm on book two and thus far it's been a surprisingly catchy tale, I see similarities between some of the themes in Nu-Dune and SOtSS, (for some reason the Klikiss robots remind me of Cymeks but with out
brain-balls lol).

I like Kevin's style of story telling, it's definitely geared towards entertaining and I am entertained. Not life altering effected as say I was when I read classic Dune, but entertained. If you only know him from Dune I'd recommend checking these books out.

I'll tell you what though, I can't wait until Brian and KJA team up for their non-Dune effort, I think for them it's going to be good to get away from Dune and do their own thing. I like the story flow of the Nu-Dune books (though I agree that some chapters are joke short) and will enjoy seeing what they come up with unfettered 8)

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Postby orald » 18 Mar 2008 06:39

Blasphemy!


May God Leto strike thee down, infidel!

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Postby SandChigger » 18 Mar 2008 06:51

(Oh, orald, would you please have a beer or two? :roll: :D And you got the nikkud slightly wrong on infidel, btw. ;) )

Simon, their new Dune books are about as "unfettered" as it gets. They pay only soiled-ass-smelling lip service to the principles of the universe they claim to be writing in.

I read some of Hidden Empire while home last summer, and have been skimming through Timeweb here recently. Both are the sort of badly written science-fantasy-masquerading-as-science-fiction that give science fiction a bad name. Just a little above the level of those Harlotin' Romance pulps that were my mother's guilty pleasure. (Much as it pains me to admit it, though, Kevin comes across as being the better writer of the two. Which isn't saying much, seeing how Timeweb reads like Brian himself didn't proofread it; you have to wonder WTF the editors got paid for.)

I got no problem with you enjoying them, though. Evidently a lot of people do. Me, though, I'm an elitist snob (just ask Kevin!). The only thing I want to put in the jar when I read is my dentures. :D

(When you get done with the Saga, have a look at Dan Simmons' Hyperion Cantos (only four books, not seven) and then let's talk about how original or good Kevin's series is. ;) )
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