Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

A Thing of Eternity wrote: Already, those are pretty harsh as well - maybe I'm remembering it wrong but I remember a passage where it's said that their use as berzerkers has to do with their inherant suicidal tendancies, and is related to how they do not reproduce.

I think that was in The Dosadi Experiment, actually.

SadisticCynic wrote:

A Thing of Eternity wrote: Already, those are pretty harsh as well - maybe I'm remembering it wrong but I remember a passage where it's said that their use as berzerkers has to do with their inherant suicidal tendancies, and is related to how they do not reproduce.

I think that was in The Dosadi Experiment, actually.

That's possible, I remember it from GEoD, but the last time I read either of those books was at least a few years ago.

Yeah, that was all I could find/remeber on the subject from GEoD.

Freakzilla wrote:"Perverts don't perpetuate!"
Moneo spoke in a soothing tone, but his words shook Idaho. "I will tell you this
only once. Homosexuals have been among the best warriors in our history, the
berserkers of last resort. They were among our best priests and priestesses.
Celibacy was no accident in religions. It is also no accident that adolescents
make the best soldiers."
"That's perversion!"
"Quite right. Military commanders have known about the perverted displacement of
sex into pain for thousands upon thousands of centuries."
"Is that what the Great Lord Leto's doing?"
Still mild, Moneo said: "Violence requires that you inflict pain and suffer it.
How much more manageable a military force driven to this by its deepest
urgings."

...

Moneo nodded. "The homosexual, latent or otherwise, who maintains that condition
for reasons which could be called purely psychological, tends to indulge in
pain-causing behavior-seeking it for himself and inflicting it upon others. Lord
Leto says this goes back to the testing behavior in the prehistoric pack."

...

"Ohhh, he says that when it breaks out of the adolescent homosexual restraints,
the male army is essentially rapist. Rape is often murderous and that's not
survival behavior."

I don't know that I disagree with any of that;
esp. the last one ...

The second one is pure nonsense, it starts with the assumption that anyone choses to be gay and then implies that homosexuals by nature are more "pain-causing" to themselves and others. Often enough they are, but it has nothing to do with them being gay, it has to do with how everyone treats them in our society for being gay. Heterosexual males remain the most violent demographic.

The first one is assuming that homosexuals have pain fetishism by nature, which is incorrect, that seems to be pretty evenly dispersed between straights and non-straights - and even if it is more common in homosexuals we have no idea whether that has to do with nature or nurture (in a society where everyone was more open about sexuality it'd probably be very different).

The third is true depending on how some of it is taken.

Hi all,

Just searched Bruce's name on net and came across this site. Bruce Calvin Herbert died in my home in San Rafael California in 1993. My partner Andrew Neddermeyer and I cared for Bruce until his death along with friends and members of The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence who helped us deal with this terrible disease called AIDS. I met Bruce in college in the 1970's. He had not yet come out as gay. We met in a communications class and I thought he was very very cute. However Bruce admitted very shortly thereafter that he was gay and we became the best of friends. When Bruce was diagnosed many years later Andy and I discussed the situation and reassured Bruce he would never be out on the streets, that he could live with us and we would care for him when the time came. And that is exactly what happened.

Funny, the obituary quoted was written by Brian, but this version leaves out mention of Andy and I. Oh well.

Bruce didn't turn to being gay because of his dad. He was born gay, was always gay. He said his mom always knew he was "fey". Frank and the rest of the family were not very accepting, especially sister Penny and even more especially Penny's husband (different mom I believe).

Brian really loved his bro and showed up those last of Bruce's days on earth. Brian's wife I remember as being steadfast and very loving, no sense at all of not accepting Bruce. We did not meet in happy circumstances.

Bruce considered himself the Son of Dune, but I guess Brian did too, so who knows.

I have video of Bruce and I when we first met in the communications class, shot in the old reel to reel black and white early consumer video days, maybe will put it up on YouTube. We talk about the future of technology, our mutual passion.

Elaine Trotter

Thanks for sharing that with us, Elaine.

(I don't think any of us really think Frank "turned him gay".)

thanks very much for this ....

we here all have our grudges against & complaints about Brian,
and we sometimes do become very mean-spirited & petty,
but that's mostly the frustration talking ...

Thanks for posting that, definitely none of us think anything "turned" Bruce gay (unless some of us are secretly idiots...), any more than anything turned me into a redhead.

Trying to understand Bruce's relationship with his father has for me at least shed some light on some of the things FH wrote about.

I would love to see those videos, I hope you post them someday.

Thanks for the post. As the others have stated, probably none of us think that he was "turned" gay. Interesting fact about Penny though. It's a shame it played out like that. It's great that he was able to find support like that at the end.

Mandy wrote:I would love to see those videos, I hope you post them someday.

Seconded! (Or thirded.)

Thank you for sharing these very personal memories. I would also really like to see the video's.

Nekhrun wrote:Thanks for the post. As the others have stated, probably none of us think that he was "turned" gay. Interesting fact about Penny though. It's a shame it played out like that. It's great that he was able to find support like that at the end.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Thanks for posting that, definitely none of us think anything "turned" Bruce gay (unless some of us are secretly idiots...), any more than anything turned me into a redhead.

Trying to understand Bruce's relationship with his father has for me at least shed some light on some of the things FH wrote about.

I am amazed that this topic is still going on. At the same time, I'm pissed at myself for sucky word choice in my first post, and for getting confused about Dreamer of Dune's account of Bruce in the first place. I'm still bummed out that Bruce is dead, because I wanted to know his side of the story about growing up with Frank. I don't think he would forgive me for what I wrote in this forum if we was still alive, even though I also wrote that he should be the legitimate DUNE heir. What if the Herbert Estate declares Kanly against me, forcing me to go renegade? I think I should fall on my Crysknfe soaked in Water of Life immediately before they catch me.

It would be nice for someone to write a memoir about Bruce, but I wouldn't want Brian to write it.

It'd probably be one hell of a book between his whacky famous father and all his personal strife and accomplishments. If I'm not mistaken he was something of a well known activist for gay rights/awareness, but I could be wrong about that.

rabbit wrote:Hi all,

Just searched Bruce's name on net and came across this site. Bruce Calvin Herbert died in my home in San Rafael California in 1993. My partner Andrew Neddermeyer and I cared for Bruce until his death along with friends and members of The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence who helped us deal with this terrible disease called AIDS. I met Bruce in college in the 1970's. He had not yet come out as gay. We met in a communications class and I thought he was very very cute. However Bruce admitted very shortly thereafter that he was gay and we became the best of friends. When Bruce was diagnosed many years later Andy and I discussed the situation and reassured Bruce he would never be out on the streets, that he could live with us and we would care for him when the time came. And that is exactly what happened.

Funny, the obituary quoted was written by Brian, but this version leaves out mention of Andy and I. Oh well.

Bruce didn't turn to being gay because of his dad. He was born gay, was always gay. He said his mom always knew he was "fey". Frank and the rest of the family were not very accepting, especially sister Penny and even more especially Penny's husband (different mom I believe).

Brian really loved his bro and showed up those last of Bruce's days on earth. Brian's wife I remember as being steadfast and very loving, no sense at all of not accepting Bruce. We did not meet in happy circumstances.

Bruce considered himself the Son of Dune, but I guess Brian did too, so who knows.

I have video of Bruce and I when we first met in the communications class, shot in the old reel to reel black and white early consumer video days, maybe will put it up on YouTube. We talk about the future of technology, our mutual passion.

Elaine Trotter

I wonder if she did upload those videos.
And I like the redeeming of Brian through his brotherly love, that's nice.