Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Forgive me for quoting Dreamer of Dune, and for quoting a sizable paragraph from the memoir as well, but it sets the stage for what I want discuss in this topic.

Bruce's homosexuality was had never been accepted by my father, and they had never reached full rapprochement. Still, when my brother came to Seatle he broke into tears while riding in the backseat of my car. Penny and Jan consoled him. My brother told me later that he didn't cry from love, because he didn't feel he loved the man. He said he cried from what he had never experienced in the relationship between his father.
I missed almost everything," Bruce said. "I never saw the good side he showed you. He wasn't there fore me."
He went on to say that he couldn't watch movies or television programs having to do with father-son relationships, because they upset him so much. I told him that Dad loved him, that he spoke of him often and fondly, and that he just didn't know how to show it. I reminded Bruce of all the ways he emulated our father, and of the many interests they shared . . . electronics, computers, science fiction, photography, flamenco guitar . . . and I asked if that could possible mean that he loved Dad after all. My brother fell silent.

I wouldn't say that Bruce's decision to become gay as a response to his father makes him necessarily gay (he just forced it upon himself), nor would I say that Brian is in any position to accurately acertain the psychology of his brother. Still, though Bruce Herbert is kind of the black sheep of the family, Brian's claim that Bruce shared many similarities with his father despite their uneven relationship is impressive nonetheless. Sorry if I am going to jump off to bold what-if scenarios, especially with other members of the Herbert family, but here it is

If Bruce does share a number of interests with his father, would that make him eligible as a likely legitimate heir to writing (or rewriting) the Dune prequels and sequels?

Again, I know I am being bold, so please don't draw my blood, take my water, and throw me to the desert for the worms too quickly.

Didn't he die?

If he did, I completely missed out on that information. Besides, the only information I have on Bruce is from Dreamer of Dune, and Brian's last mention of Bruce involves the paragraph which I just quoted. No mention of death in the book.

Fill me in, Jacurutu, if you know the answer.

It's called the search function, try it some time

June 18, 1993

BRUCE C. HERBERT

Electronics enthusiast - Bruce C. Herbert of San Rafael died at home Tuesday, June 15, 1993, of pneumonia as a result of AIDS. He was 41.

He was born in Santa Rosa in 1951 to science fiction author Frank Herbert and advertising manager Beverly Herbert.

Mr. Herbert graduated from Sir Francis Drake High School.

As a youngster he developed an interest in electronics, and became devoted to the field. At the age of 13 he built his own radio station at home In Fairfax.

Eventually he owned a radio and television repair company, Starburst Electronics in Fairfax, and worked for a television station in the Midwest.

He also worked creating and marketing computer software and was a professional photographer, specializing in video work.

An activist in the gay community, Mr. Herbert was a member of a number of organizations, including Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence.

He loved music, books and good conversation. He was an accomplished cook.

He is survived by a brother, Brian Herbert of Bellevue, Washington; a sister, Penny Merritt of Florence, Oregon; and several nieces and nephews.

Private services will be held.

Taken from the smellhole notes thread, info posted by da chigger.

Rob

It's too bad he never got on with his dad, and the Elder Herbert couldn't accept him for being gay. Relatively minor in the mass scheme of human suffering around the world, but probably very hard to go through.

It's called the search function, try it some time

Actually, I did use the search function, Robespierre. Obviously, you typed the name in a way that got better results than I did.

June 18, 1993

BRUCE C. HERBERT

Electronics enthusiast - Bruce C. Herbert of San Rafael died at home Tuesday, June 15, 1993, of pneumonia as a result of AIDS. He was 41.

Damn it. This is really sad. It sounded like he had a lot of potential. Why did Brian Herbert leave out his brother's death?
This really sucks, not to mention depressing.... I'm still rather curious how he would have happened if he had written the followup Dune chronicles, and whether he would have been better at it than his brother.

Often times, the people who are considered less likely to continue a legacy, end up doing it. Just like Winston Churchill continued Randolph Churchill's legacy, and his father hardly showed him his good side. I don't think Bruce got the chance to show if he was worthy successor. Then again, we don't even know if he even wanted to continue his father's work. Sad.

Thanks Robespierre for the obituary.

Out of curiosity, what did you type in when you did a search? I just used Bruce Herbert.

Rob

Superdog wrote:It's too bad he never got on with his dad, and the Elder Herbert couldn't accept him for being gay. Relatively minor in the mass scheme of human suffering around the world, but probably very hard to go through.

I agree, Superdog. At least we enlightened Dune fans realize that gay people are not like the Baron Harkonnen. (My perception is that what made the Baron really evil was his sexual predatory nature and animalistic desires, not the fact that he was gay). Unfortunately, Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderon in their portrayal of the Baron took the Baron's perverse homosexual appetities way too far in the prequels, far to the point of sick caricature. It almost insults Bruce's memory (but, as usual, this is another opinion mine).

Robspierre wrote:Out of curiosity, what did you type in when you did a search? I just used Bruce Herbert.

Rob

The same. Bruce Herbert. I did it on Yahoo, and I saw other Bruce Herberts, but not the main one I was looking for. Maybe I should search again.

Ahhhhh, I see, I did my search here on Jacurutu, odds are you'll get more refined results than the other search engines.

Rob

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:I wouldn't say that Bruce's decision to become gay as a response to his father makes him necessarily gay (he just forced it upon himself)

I do agree with this, though:

nor would I say that Brian is in any position to accurately acertain the psychology of his brother

The stuff about the gay couple in the first SMELLHOLE volume also calls into question Brian's sensitivity to these issues and exactly how he regards the memory of his brother. (But then, look how he's fucking the corpse of his father. Why should his brother get off any easier?)

(Isn't there something about Bruce's death in DoD? It's been a while since I looked through it and I don't have my copy handy at the moment, but I was thinking there's some mention of it in there... ??)

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:I wouldn't say that Bruce's decision to become gay as a response to his father makes him necessarily gay (he just forced it upon himself),

Are these your words or Brian's?

Serkanner wrote:

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:I wouldn't say that Bruce's decision to become gay as a response to his father makes him necessarily gay (he just forced it upon himself),

Are these your words or Brian's?

Misinterpretation of Brian's words, I'm afraid.

SandChigger wrote:

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:I wouldn't say that Bruce's decision to become gay as a response to his father makes him necessarily gay (he just forced it upon himself)

I do agree with this, though:

nor would I say that Brian is in any position to accurately acertain the psychology of his brother

The stuff about the gay couple in the first SMELLHOLE volume also calls into question Brian's sensitivity to these issues and exactly how he regards the memory of his brother. (But then, look how he's fucking the corpse of his father. Why should his brother get off any easier?)

(Isn't there something about Bruce's death in DoD? It's been a while since I looked through it and I don't have my copy handy at the moment, but I was thinking there's some mention of it in there... ??)

Damn it! I did it again! Sorry guys. I keep writing the wrong things and in the wrong way.
I don't even know for certain if there were signs of Bruce being gay before he announced it to his brother. All I know is that at one point of the book, he said he didn't want to marry, because he didn't want to treat his children the way Frank treated him and his brother. When he told Brian he was gay, Brian's phrasing made it seem as if he was turning a 90 degree angle in order to avoid making the same mistakes of his father as far as possible. What I should have said was that it appeared that Bruce was pushing himself the other way out of reaction to his father. I didn't mean to say that it was absolutely the case.

I think I might have misinterpreted the context based on the passages I read from the book, and I'm sorry for it.

Brian, in his book, does state that:

In part it was a reaction to our macho father, who spoke of homosexuality as if it were an immature, unseemly activity

As for the rest of Bruce, Brian doesn't say, but he must have been naturally gay, and it only surfaced more prominently when relations with his father got strained.

I should have phrased my topic better, if I had any hopes for Bruce being the next Dune writer (I know, I know. He's dead, but it seemed that he had the potential).

Mainly I was on Bruce's side, not a critic of his.

Serkanner wrote:

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:I wouldn't say that Bruce's decision to become gay as a response to his father makes him necessarily gay (he just forced it upon himself),

Are these your words or Brian's?

Exactly what I was wondering. Where the heck do you get that he chose to be gay? Naive assumption or supported in fact? If you just wrote that, then you really, really need to reread and think before you hig that Submit button. If you want to have rational conversations here, then stop that kind of thing, because it runis your credibility otherwise.

Omphalos wrote:

Serkanner wrote:

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:I wouldn't say that Bruce's decision to become gay as a response to his father makes him necessarily gay (he just forced it upon himself),

Are these your words or Brian's?

Exactly what I was wondering. Where the heck do you get that he chose to be gay? Naive assumption or supported in fact? If you just wrote that, then you really, really need to reread and think before you hig that Submit button. If you want to have rational conversations here, then stop that kind of thing, because it runis your credibility otherwise.

Omphalos, I just apologized for and explained my mistake in my last post. If you have read it, you would see that I was attempting to be rational after seeing what my mistake was. As I said, it was based off what appeared to be going on based off misinterpretation of Brian's words. I'm not trying to cause strife in Jacurutu. I'm sorry for offending you.

Actually, this argument wouldn't have occurred if I didn't write in parenthesis "he just forced it upon itself." If it was left out, the sentence would have just basically conveyed that the state of Bruce's homosexuality was unclear to me based off my impression of Brian's Dreamer of Dune. Throughout my posts in this topic, I've born no malice to Bruce himself. Would you prefer that I remove the parenthetical statement through editing?

too late for that !

Dreamer of Dune is Brian's vision of his father, but is there any real proof (man the stupid pun here...) that Frank didn't like Bruce because of his homosexuality ?

I never gave much thought to that fact but there is the Baron...

The Baron represents all that is traditionally held to be evil, which could include his homosexuality. Can't say that Frank necessarily held to those value systems. Also the Baron wanted children, not adult men, which I'm pretty sure is a significant difference.

A more telling point is the portrayal of homosexuality in God Emperor of Dune, which fits better with:

In part it was a reaction to our macho father, who spoke of homosexuality as if it were an immature, unseemly activity

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:Actually, this argument wouldn't have occurred if I didn't write in parenthesis "he just forced it upon itself." If it was left out, the sentence would have just basically conveyed that the state of Bruce's homosexuality was unclear to me based off my impression of Brian's Dreamer of Dune. Throughout my posts in this topic, I've born no malice to Bruce himself. Would you prefer that I remove the parenthetical statement through editing?

No, don't do that. We don't like that at all here. Just think and proof before you post. That's all. And realize that this is written communication, not in person. There are no non-verbal cues, so get used to explaining yourself fully.

... and us calling you out if you don't.

We all know that Brian doesn't understand people, or why they do things. And I think we can assume that the things he writes about his brother and father don't really shed light on either of them.

SadisticCynic wrote:The Baron represents all that is traditionally held to be evil, which could include his homosexuality. Can't say that Frank necessarily held to those value systems. Also the Baron wanted children, not adult men, which I'm pretty sure is a significant difference.

A more telling point is the portrayal of homosexuality in God Emperor of Dune, which fits better with:

In part it was a reaction to our macho father, who spoke of homosexuality as if it were an immature, unseemly activity

Well, In God Emperor the Fish Speakers practice same sex relations, which were common in many pre-modern warrior cultures, (samurai, ancient greece, etc). Presumably that was the inspiration for it.

The question is whether Duncan's reaction (disgust) is meant to be an author pov. Could be. But who knows? It's hard to figure out his political and personal beliefs by reading Dune. The only other instance of same sex desire is the Baron, which isn't very encouraging.

You all have very good points...
Is there any body inside or outside the Herbert family that doesn't have a questionable bias? (outside of Brian and his Museum Fremen troop)?

merkin muffley wrote:We all know that Brian doesn't understand people, or why they do things. And I think we can assume that the things he writes about his brother and father don't really shed light on either of them.

This.

Dreamer of Dune was not about Frank Herbert, it was about Brian trying and failing to understand his father. Frank very well might not of been a good father, however, Brian is not objective and everything he writes is colored by his lack of understanding.

Rob

Robspierre wrote:...everything he writes is colored by his lack of understanding.

I like the sound of that.