Random Sequel Aside

    Abandon all sanity ye who enter here

Moderators: Omphalos, Freakzilla, ᴶᵛᵀᴬ

A Little Galach
Posts: 172
Joined: 26 Mar 2010 16:37

Random Sequel Aside

Postby A Little Galach » 08 Jun 2010 09:20

I finsished Chapterhouse recently, completing a re-read of all 6 original books. In regards to the ending and how FH's intention of the characters escaping the Old Empire was hijacked, I have a thought that has been bothering me. I know that KJA & Co have offended most intelligent Dune fans' orthodox sensibilities with their inconsistencies and pre-emption, but I have an additional gripe.

The writing of the prequels and sequels offends me because if KJA had any creative DNA and if BH had any balls they could have written sequels that depicted the rogue group's travels and subsequent colonization of a new planet(s?) in some distant galaxy. They were basically handed a blank canvas on which to "paint" dozens of books and detach them from FH's in terms of storyline and need for much consistency, and they decided to try and piss on the first 6 instead, and saturate them as thoroughly as possible at that. Hell, HLP could have allowed one damn book to be written by a real writer to wrap up the Old Empire and lay the groundwork for the Rogues and then opened the flood gates to franchise "Sheeana's Scattering" novels that would have probably given them a more consistent and morally acceptable revenue stream.


Honestly, I look at it as an large scale equivalent to Star Trek: Voyager, where a successful brand with household-knowledge technology was given a fresh start and the ability to write outside of the constraints of the universe the previous writers had created. A writer with creative ability, imagination and TALENT could have written something really good by combining a legacy with their own vision. Both products ended up sucking, it's a shame Dune's sucked because of ego and greed.

[/frustrated semi-rant]

User avatar
merkin muffley
Posts: 1584
Joined: 23 Apr 2010 15:18
Location: War Room

Re: Random Sequel Aside

Postby merkin muffley » 08 Jun 2010 09:28

A Little Galach wrote:IThey were basically handed a blank canvas on which to "paint" dozens of books and detach them from FH's in terms of storyline and need for much consistency, and they decided to try and piss on the first 6 instead, and saturate them as thoroughly as possible at that.


I didn't care nearly as much until they started writing the interquels.
"I must admit, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor...."

User avatar
Hunchback Jack
Posts: 1983
Joined: 30 May 2008 15:02
Location: California, USA

Re: Random Sequel Aside

Postby Hunchback Jack » 08 Jun 2010 09:33

I have mixed reactions to your suggestion.

On the one hand, you're right. The stage was set for anything to happen, and you had Duncan, Teg, Sheeana, Scytale, the ghola cells, the jews and a bunch of sandworms in a new universe - a great starting point for a new series of books. In terms of wasted opportunity, KJA and BH reached new limits.

But a strong part of me thinks that if Dune 7 exists at all, it should be completed according to Frank's original intentions. What little evidence we have suggests that Frank was planning to wrap up the series in just one more book. Personally, I think that book would have seen the end of all the remaining old empire power structures, and some exploration of the "Sheeana future" and its consequences. I would rather see that one book done well than a series of adventures set in a universe that no longer has much to do with FH's Dune.

So yes, what they did was a travesty, and a more self-contained series of sequels might have been better. But best of all would have been a single sequel written according to FH's original plans. IMHO, anyway.

HBJ
"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
- Carl Sagan

I'm still very proud of The Quarry but … let's face it; in the end the real best way to sign off would have been with a great big rollicking Culture novel.
- Iain Banks

User avatar
merkin muffley
Posts: 1584
Joined: 23 Apr 2010 15:18
Location: War Room

Re: Random Sequel Aside

Postby merkin muffley » 08 Jun 2010 10:06

Hunchback Jack wrote:But best of all would have been a single sequel written according to FH's original plans.


That is probably the best-case scenario.
"I must admit, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor...."

A Little Galach
Posts: 172
Joined: 26 Mar 2010 16:37

Re: Random Sequel Aside

Postby A Little Galach » 08 Jun 2010 13:05

merkin muffley wrote:
Hunchback Jack wrote:But best of all would have been a single sequel written according to FH's original plans.


That is probably the best-case scenario.


I agree and I think this goes without saying. However, once Frank Herbert passed I don't think it was a possibility since none of his offspring have penises, consciences, literary taste or strong wills.

Going with the assumption that his family was going to hump his dead literary corpse in order to make a buck, I would have preferred they do so in a way that at least allowed the original 6 to remain unsoiled and didn't insult people with brains.

User avatar
SandRider
Watermaster
Posts: 6163
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
Location: In the back of your mind. Always.
Contact:

Re: Random Sequel Aside

Postby SandRider » 08 Jun 2010 16:38

the only selling point they had was "Dune 7" from "Frank's Notes" ... you can bet Spanky bulldozed Brian
into the "prequels" to milk the cow .... and they "had" to write the prequels, otherwise their "Dune 7"
"wouldn't have made sense" .... telling me there were no (usable) notes, and Spanky had to write the
prequels to explain the bullshit he knew he wanted to put into "Dune 7" ....without "Dune 7 from The Notes",
(and Brian's Last Name) there is no salable product .... Kevin J. Who is writing an "Expanded Universe" for
Dune ? Ain't the guy that fucked up Star Wars ?

and you know what ? right now, at this moment, I'm no longer mad at Keith ... he's an assclown,
doing what he can to make a buck ... I believe him when he said "Sure, it would've been better if
Frank had been around to write Dune7; we did the best we could" ... and the best Spanky can do
is mediocre at best ... he's a total shitheel, so you can't hold it against him that he doesn't realize
how bad his writing is, or what an ass he comes off as, &etc ... if he did, he'd be a regular guy
instead of a shitheel .... the Village Idiot doesn't realize he's the Village Idiot ... he thinks people
toss him coins on the street when he dances and babbles on because they like him ... those broads
on Jerry Springer who yell at the audience "Y'all just jealous !!" really believe that ....

so I'm not blaming Keith ... he's a product of this society, and he is doing his job ... I'm blaming the
asshole enablers - the fucking retarded fans, first off, anyone who's bought, read, enjoyed, and
twitted Spanky about one of his "books" .... I'll blame the Living Herbert Parasites ... and how many
of you really, actually believe Spanky McDune is some kind of evil-genius mastermind who manipulated
Brian and the rest into doing his bidding ? Keith's just not that smart .... I can't see him formulating and
executing any kind of plan more complex than the next meal ... he's a shitheel hack ... he's just
doing his job ....

mostly tho, I'm going to blame the major numbah one asshole enabler: the fucking publishers ....

let's put some names and faces on the execs at Tor who're greenlighting this bullshit ...
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008

A Little Galach
Posts: 172
Joined: 26 Mar 2010 16:37

Re: Random Sequel Aside

Postby A Little Galach » 08 Jun 2010 16:58

I agree. Let's blame the publisher for publishing and selling books. Perhaps the bookstore for selling them too.

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14492
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: A continuing state of irritation
Contact:

Re: Random Sequel Aside

Postby SandChigger » 08 Jun 2010 22:57

Well, they could both choose NOT to pander to the least common denominator.

"I'm sorry, WE only sell the REAL Dune books, with just Frank Herbert's name on them. If you're looking for trash, try the corner newsstand!" :snooty:

And hurrah for 'Rider for supporting the EVIL BRIAN THEORY! :lol:
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"

A Little Galach
Posts: 172
Joined: 26 Mar 2010 16:37

Re: Random Sequel Aside

Postby A Little Galach » 09 Jun 2010 08:55

My sarcastic point was to underscore that as a business, especially as a big business in a time of dwindling book sales in the face of every other developing media, your #1 job is to sell books. If they thought a book would sell they owe it to themselves (and shareholders? are they public?) to publish it. Most of the publishers that would not print these books are probably out of business, how did that lack of pandering work out for them and their employees? What major publisher would not have printed these if given the chance?

And yes, since it's the internet everyone will wail over the injustices of capitalism and money over taste. I'd rather have the current system that encourages economy of scale and the opportunity to buy new books for $8 instead of whatever universe Sand Rider wants in order to prevent bad books from being published.

Have you ever been to a bookstore? There's a lot of crap there being peddled to the LCD, and a big publisher probably prints most of it. Hell, there's a lot that's probably makes Arnoldo say "Wow, no one is dumb enough to read that. That right there is some bad poetry!" Not every book and every posthumous sequel can be up to the original standard, ESPECIALLY if it's FH's standard.

The fact that these books have the approval from the Herbert estate should be enough "protecting the legacy of FH" for the publisher. A reasonable expectation is for any estate to not crap all over their deceased relative's work. HLP has not behaved reasonably.

MrFlibble
Posts: 314
Joined: 06 Jan 2010 11:25

Re: Random Sequel Aside

Postby MrFlibble » 09 Jun 2010 09:41

A Little Galach wrote:The writing of the prequels and sequels offends me because if KJA had any creative DNA and if BH had any balls they could have written sequels that depicted the rogue group's travels and subsequent colonization of a new planet(s?) in some distant galaxy. They were basically handed a blank canvas on which to "paint" dozens of books and detach them from FH's in terms of storyline and need for much consistency, and they decided to try and piss on the first 6 instead, and saturate them as thoroughly as possible at that.

You know, you're right about that, this way they could have virtually no creative limitations. The same way, they could have written books about the Scattering and maybe the genesis of the HM etc. etc. However, I'm inclined to think they deliberately took the "easy" way of writing what they believe to be "missing pieces" in the already established universe.

And besides, let's face it: BH and KJA wouldn't be able to create anything decent in the "Scattering" universe either. Just take a look at the Legends books, the situation is quite comparable with what you have proposed (a high degree of creative freedom because the Butlerian Jihad is only scarcely described in the hexalogy), but the result is utter mediocrity. And think about all the inconsistencies in the prequels, the scale of which was such that they had to create a new series solely designed to establish their flawed, screwed-up image of the Dune universe as "canon", while the original books have suddenly become an in-universe propaganda for the dumb.
WHAT IF YOU NO LONGER HEAR THE MUSIC OF LIFE?
MEMORIES ARE NOT ENOUGH UNLESS THEY CALL YOU TO NOBLE PURPOSE!

A Little Galach
Posts: 172
Joined: 26 Mar 2010 16:37

Re: Random Sequel Aside

Postby A Little Galach » 09 Jun 2010 14:01

Oh, anything KJA & BH worked on would inevitably be mediocre or best. At least that way they could offend fewer people.