"New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Image
    Abandon all sanity ye who enter here

Moderators: ᴶᵛᵀᴬ, Omphalos, Freakzilla

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18164
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Freakzilla » 30 Nov 2011 10:39

So, nothing in Dune, then.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

Crizius
Posts: 90
Joined: 20 Nov 2011 13:55

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Crizius » 01 Dec 2011 09:16

I can see that
I rarely post because most of the time I feel I have nothing to add

There is nothing to fear but fear itself for Fear is the mind-killer.Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. Fear kills me over and over. Without fear, I die but once.

User avatar
Jodorowsky's Acolyte
Posts: 370
Joined: 10 Jul 2010 10:55

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 17 Dec 2011 16:03

When will the Inconsistency Concordance be completed? A site must be built containing all the inconsistencies the DUNE prequels/sequels have contained! Release it, before DUNE CONCORDANCE does!

....By the way, shouldn't have DUNE CONCORDANCE been released at this point?
'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky

User avatar
Serkanner
Posts: 2833
Joined: 17 Feb 2008 18:44
Location: Den Haag - The Netherlands

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Serkanner » 17 Dec 2011 18:25

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:When will the Inconsistency Concordance be completed?


After they stop writing more atrocities of course ... duh!
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14490
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"
Contact:

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby SandChigger » 19 Dec 2011 10:17

Or maybe that'll be the slops KJA leaves for Byron. :laughing-rolling:

(Suck it up, Merritt. Mmmmm... tastes good, no?)

User avatar
dunaddict
Posts: 211
Joined: 24 Sep 2008 09:09
Location: The Netherlands

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby dunaddict » 26 Jun 2012 13:45

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:When will the Inconsistency Concordance be completed?

Anything missing then? I haven't read any McDune lately (thankfully) and it doesn't look like I'm going to read ´Sisterhood´ anytime soon, if ever.

I saw Amp's SoD notes thread. Ampoliros, what are the major inconsistencies in there? I will add them to the list.

User avatar
Ampoliros
Posts: 2518
Joined: 14 Mar 2008 11:22
Location: I think we took a wrong turn...

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Ampoliros » 27 Jun 2012 00:19

Oh.... You bastard.

Inconsistencies begin on the fucking cover. There are 3 to begin with here.

Final cover. Unrealistic and needlessly photoshopped. Meh
Image

Next inconsistency:

Image
Why is that an inconsistency? Here's why: this is a "McDune" signing.
Image


Then you get to the plot which is:

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image


If you want more:
Image
Semper Fidelis Tyrannosaurus

User avatar
Ampoliros
Posts: 2518
Joined: 14 Mar 2008 11:22
Location: I think we took a wrong turn...

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Ampoliros » 27 Jun 2012 00:20

Let the healing begin:

Image
Semper Fidelis Tyrannosaurus

User avatar
dunaddict
Posts: 211
Joined: 24 Sep 2008 09:09
Location: The Netherlands

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby dunaddict » 27 Jun 2012 04:29

Ampoliros wrote:Oh.... You bastard.

Glad to be of service. :)

Ampoliros wrote:Why is that an inconsistency? Here's why: this is a "McDune" signing.
Image

Oh..my...God. Is that for real? Tells you a lot about his real target audience then.

User avatar
dunaddict
Posts: 211
Joined: 24 Sep 2008 09:09
Location: The Netherlands

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby dunaddict » 27 Jun 2012 04:32

Ampoliros wrote:Let the healing begin:

No!!! I don't want my Pain taken away, I need my Pain!

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby lotek » 27 Jun 2012 04:33

(that cat's eyes are the same colour... that's weird)
Spice is the worm's gonads.

FangedFaerie
Posts: 1
Joined: 14 Jul 2012 16:15

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby FangedFaerie » 14 Jul 2012 16:52

In addition to the passage in Dune where Jessica curses at the Old Duke, there's a passage in Dune Messiah where Paul is examining himself in a mirror:

He looked the proper grandson for an Atreides who'd died in the bullring creating a spectacle for his people.

Something the old man had said slipped then into Paul's mind: "One who rules assumes irrevocable responsibility for the ruled. You are a husbandman. This demands, at times, a selfless act of love which may only be amusing to those you rule."

People still remembered that old man with affection.


I took from that an implication that Paul, himself, had heard that quote as a boy or a young man. Of course, by this time his access to Other Memory is firmly established, so it's a bit of a weak argument. Still, it's bothered me for a long time.

Another thing that has bothered me forever is how the marriage of Leto and Jessica came about. There are repeated phrases in Dune about his "buyers" taking her from the Bene Gesserit school, and this in particular:

He remembered that the lay sisters at the school had called her skinny, so his buyers had told him.


Mohiam, of course, mentions that she was a serving wench for 14 years, and many of Jessica's memories of the school seem to reinforce the idea that she must have been a teenager when she became Leto's concubine. I always thought that their pairing must have been a subtle affair on the part of the Bene Gesserit, to tempt Leto into "buying" her.

Of course, BH and KJA wouldn't know subtle if it bit them on the...

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14490
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"
Contact:

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby SandChigger » 24 Jul 2012 15:50

KJA wouldn't know subtle if he bit it on the wiener. :twisted:
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

User avatar
Omphalos
Inglorious Bastard
Posts: 6637
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 11:07
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Omphalos » 24 Jul 2012 18:46

SandChigger wrote:KJA wouldn't know subtle if he bit it on the wiener. :twisted:


Don't you mean "nibbled?"

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14490
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"
Contact:

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby SandChigger » 25 Jul 2012 07:01

Nah. That'd be too subtle for him. ;)
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

User avatar
Mr. Teg
Moderator
Posts: 699
Joined: 11 Feb 2008 10:14
Location: Chair
Contact:

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Mr. Teg » 26 Jul 2012 18:21

Omphalos wrote:
SandChigger wrote:KJA wouldn't know subtle if he bit it on the wiener. :twisted:


Don't you mean "nibbled?"


The source of friction during previous tours...
Brian's morning "stuble" irritated KJA as he "fiddled" with his wiener.
CHOAM
Combine Herbert Ober Anderson Mercantile, Narf!
Brian, Kevin & Byron Image The HLP

User avatar
Naïve mind
Posts: 388
Joined: 26 Aug 2012 05:58

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Naïve mind » 11 May 2013 15:25

dunaddict wrote:Hunters of Dune

  1. The Baron ghola has Alia in his Other Memory. Is he the kwisatz haderach now? And if he is, why does he have ancestral memory of one of his descendants?


I was reminded of this by this post.

"I do not take the Emperor's orders," Alia said. She turned, looked up at the old Reverend Mother. "She knows."
The Emperor glanced up at his Truthsayer. "What does she mean?"
"That child is an abomination!" the old woman said. "Her mother deserves a punishment greater than anything in history. Death! It cannot come too quickly for that child or for the one who spawned her!" The old woman pointed a finger at Alia. "Get out of my mind!"
"T-P?" the Emperor whispered. He snapped his attention back to Alia. "By the Great Mother!"
"You don't understand. Majesty," the old woman said. "Not telepathy. She's in my mind. She's like the ones before me, the ones who gave me their memories. She stands in my mind! She cannot be there, but she is!"


I think that, in all fairness, we have to give some consistency points back to the prequel novels here. Yes, people shouldn't have other memory of their descendants ... but Alia did it before.

User avatar
Ampoliros
Posts: 2518
Joined: 14 Mar 2008 11:22
Location: I think we took a wrong turn...

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Ampoliros » 12 May 2013 01:26

She's in the Reverend Mother's mind because an abomination is basically a woman who becomes a reverend mother before they are born: They have no self made personality other than the one amalgam of Reverend Mother voices.

Suffice to say "Abomination" could all have the same personality and it is manifest in every Reverend Mother, but the fact that the Spice Agony comes after years of training and actually kills those who fail makes it a gateway to those who can control it.

Thus "Alia" being in the Mohaim's mind does make sense.

Alia being in the Baron's Other Memory makes absolutely no sense.

The Baron wouldn't survive the spice agony. He is not and never was a contender for being a Kwisatz Haderach. If he had even been considered as a failed one, this would have been important enough to be mentioned. Frank mentions it about Fenring and its an important part of his character.

The representation in Hunters is of Alia, not an abomination. Remember these are the people who had Alia act like a child so she could experience it, even though she has millenia of experience of being a child. They just wanted an excuse to make Alia stupid so she wouldn't notice GAPING PLOT HOLES and could play with...

dammit you JUST HAD TO GO THERE AND MAKE ME REMEMBER THE ONE TRUE ABOMINATION: THE TERMINATOR TODDLER POWER PRINCESS.

FUCK YOU KJA.
Semper Fidelis Tyrannosaurus

User avatar
Sardaukar Capt
Posts: 167
Joined: 30 Oct 2011 12:28
Location: Texas

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Sardaukar Capt » 24 Aug 2013 01:53

That scene between Alia and Mohaim in Dune can be difficult to reconcile. However, I think there is more subtlety going on here just like with so much other material in the book. Frank was into Jung if I remember right. This is probably a subtle reference to projection or transference going on. The fact that an "abomination" doesn't have a persona or personality of their own but is an amalgam of all the OM in there, Mohaim can see that by reading Alia and so there is some psychological transference or projection going on there where Mohaim doesn't see Alia as a single person but as just the collection of OM boiling up inside her consciousness so that is mirrored in Mohaim's own mind almost like a psychological symptom that Alia is in her mind staring back at her when there is actually no Alia as a single persona but instead just a group of OM and nothing else.

I don't think Alia is literally there in Mohaim's OM or else you think it would have come up in DM at least. So I don't buy the simple on the surface crap about seeing descents in OM although I never read Cunters or Sandturds of Dune to see how they did that.

Of course I can see hack writers using this as something literal when Frank wasn't that ham-fisted and using it as a crutch as proof that Mohaim is Jessica's mother.
The name Atreides was also consciously chosen. It is the family name of Agamemnon. Says Herbert, "I wanted a sense of monumental aristocracy, but with tragedy hanging over them--and in our culture, Agamemnon personifies that."
Frank Herbert by Tim O'Reilly
http://tim.oreilly.com/herbert/

Ghanima said. "We Atreides go back to Agamemnon..."
Distracted, Irulan asked: "Who's Agamemnon?"

Children of Dune by Frank Herbert

WTF? A BG forgets the Titans?! :)

User avatar
Naïve mind
Posts: 388
Joined: 26 Aug 2012 05:58

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Naïve mind » 24 Aug 2013 05:25

I think Frank Herbert wasn't above breaking the rules of his universe just for the sake of narrative effect. This scene happens at the end of the novel; as a reader, you've figured out what Other Memory is by now.

By showing something that Other Memory isn't supposed to permit, you (as a reader) get to share a bit of Mohiam's distress. The Kwisatz Haderach and his sister are breaking all the rules, even the ones that seemed to be natural laws.

User avatar
Mr. Melange
Posts: 31
Joined: 08 May 2014 12:14
Location: Certainly not Arrakis.

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Mr. Melange » 09 Sep 2014 19:40

dunaddict wrote:
[*]This book says Leto II was corrupted and wrong about The Golden Path. Nothing in the last three orginal Dune books indicates that Leto II was corrupted or wrong about anything.

But power had eventually corrupted Leto II. How, then, could Duncan handle this even greater burden?

When did power corrupt Leto II? He held true to the Golden Path even though he knew it meant his death. No significant thing he ever did was from corruption, just part of the necessary plan.

Leto II's vision of the Golden Path had fragmented humanity so that they no longer followed a single charismatic leader, and now Murbella had to repair that damage. Diversity might once have been a path to survival, but unless the numerous worlds and armies could stand together against the far greater foe, they would all perish.

Now the golden path is a mistake? And why would following a single charismatic leader suddenly be OK again?

Leto II in SANDWORMS wrote:My father refused to make the choice I did - refused to pay
the price in blood for the Golden Path, but I thought I knew better.
Ah, how arrogant we can be in our youth!”

Yes, everything the god emperor did was the wrong thing to do.

When Leto II envisioned his Golden Path, he foresaw the direction that
humankind should tale, but he had blind spots. He failed to see that he was not the
ultimate Kwisatz Haderach.
- Bene Gesserit fact-finding commission

He never called himself the ultimate Kwisatz Haderach[/list]

I never knew this. I knew they did some shit, but I had no idea they went all out heresy on the God Emporer. I am stunned they would discredit the Golden Path. Thats like the crux of the series. Why the fuck do I care about Dune if the Golden Path is a lie?

Oh why Norma Cenva of fucking course...
"Imagine being told that the forging of the ring was really not a plan of Saurons, he just helped - and it was really for the good, because it was needed to defeat these mega-spiders which were somehow related to Shelob (in a way inconsistent with the Silmarillion)...
Meanwhile, a hobbit named Norma becomes a valar because she dies horribly due to a spider-bite, returns to Middle Earth and walks around a bit, inventing everything interesting you ever hear of in LoTR."
-Lundse

User avatar
Mr. Melange
Posts: 31
Joined: 08 May 2014 12:14
Location: Certainly not Arrakis.

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Mr. Melange » 09 Sep 2014 19:47

Its sad that Norma Cenva, only ever mentioned by FH through Leto ll, would eventually dethrone Leto ll as the "Dune Badass".
"Imagine being told that the forging of the ring was really not a plan of Saurons, he just helped - and it was really for the good, because it was needed to defeat these mega-spiders which were somehow related to Shelob (in a way inconsistent with the Silmarillion)...
Meanwhile, a hobbit named Norma becomes a valar because she dies horribly due to a spider-bite, returns to Middle Earth and walks around a bit, inventing everything interesting you ever hear of in LoTR."
-Lundse

User avatar
Mr. Melange
Posts: 31
Joined: 08 May 2014 12:14
Location: Certainly not Arrakis.

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Mr. Melange » 09 Sep 2014 19:48

I fucking hate Norma Cenva...
"Imagine being told that the forging of the ring was really not a plan of Saurons, he just helped - and it was really for the good, because it was needed to defeat these mega-spiders which were somehow related to Shelob (in a way inconsistent with the Silmarillion)...
Meanwhile, a hobbit named Norma becomes a valar because she dies horribly due to a spider-bite, returns to Middle Earth and walks around a bit, inventing everything interesting you ever hear of in LoTR."
-Lundse

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18164
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Freakzilla » 09 Sep 2014 22:26

Mr. Melange wrote:I fucking hate Norma Cenva...


Say something more constructive or you'll be banned in the morning.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
Mr. Melange
Posts: 31
Joined: 08 May 2014 12:14
Location: Certainly not Arrakis.

Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Mr. Melange » 09 Sep 2014 23:15

Sorry. Im vulgar and eccentric and talk Dune nowhere else but here.

I very much dislike Norma Cenva for she contradicts one of the central themes of Dune which is the problem in a dependency on "heroes".
"Imagine being told that the forging of the ring was really not a plan of Saurons, he just helped - and it was really for the good, because it was needed to defeat these mega-spiders which were somehow related to Shelob (in a way inconsistent with the Silmarillion)...
Meanwhile, a hobbit named Norma becomes a valar because she dies horribly due to a spider-bite, returns to Middle Earth and walks around a bit, inventing everything interesting you ever hear of in LoTR."
-Lundse


Return to “˲”