"New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

[SandRider]

Nah, that's the kind of little detail (that could be explained by historical distortion) that KJA would throw in intentionally in hopes we'd chase after it and our own tails.

if that's true, then the ploy backfires, in my mind.

it just proves what I already believe,
that he's a careless asshat, a hack,
and an idiot who doesn't read or think
about his own work once it's done.
(another example are his dumbass twitters)

I just don't believe he's that clever.

[redbugpest]

House Atreides

1. In this book It appears to be general knowledge that the Tleilaxu are religious fanatics. So how come it is such a major revelation for the Bene Gesserit in HERETICS OF DUNE and is not known to any character in the Chronicles before that?

   "He didn't like to think of the gnomelike men; religious fanatics, the Bene Tleilax were intensely secretive and did not invite guests."

   I need to get my copy of Heretics back from a friend, but I seem to recall that it wasn’t so much their being religious, but more about the particular belief structure that was a surprise.
2. One of the central plot points is the death of Leto's father, Duke Paulus. This happens before Jessica is born. However, in DUNE, Jessica displays what can only be first-hand experience of the Old Duke:

   Jessica turned away, faced the painting of Leto's father. [...] She clenched her fists at her sides, glared at the painting. "Damn you! Damn you! Damn you!" she whispered.

   Jessica spoke, shattering the moment. "Besides, Wellington, the Duke is really two men. One of them I love very much. He's charming, witty, considerate... tender--everything a woman could desire. But the other man is... cold, callous, demanding, selfish--as harsh and cruel as a winter wind. That's the man shaped by the father." Her face contorted. "If only that old man had died when my Duke was born!"

   This is not conclusive that she had firsthand knowledge, just a deep understanding of the family dynamics. I am sure that the BG would have made sure she was fully briefed on the Duke and his family history before placing her there.
   
   This also seems to indicate the man was a cruel man, not the humorous friendly father type described in HOUSE ATREIDES.
   
   This may be ascribed to Brian drawing more off of his own relationship with his father (the later life relationship) or Brian attempting to write the old duke in a way that reflected the father / son relationship he desired in his youth and did not receive.
3. In DUNE we are told that Harmonthep is "supposed to have been a no longer existent satellite of Delta Pavonis", yet it is mentioned several times in HOUSE ATREIDES. In DUNE, Delta Pavonis is the sun of Caladan (= Delta Pavonis III), so Harmonthep and Caladan were in the same system. It was destroyed by the time of the events in DUNE:

   HARMONTHEP: Ingsley gives this as the planet name for the sixth stop in the
   Zensunni migration. It is supposed to have been a no longer existent satellite
   of Delta Pavonis.
   ~Dune, Terminology of the Imperium

   Not sure what the significance of this is. Is there a reason that the two could not have been in the same system?
4. Piter is addicted to sapho juice in this book, but that is never mentioned in Dune. In Dune he is a spice addict; which of course is never mentioned in House Atreides...
   
   I didn’t buy the house books, so I cannot look this up, but wasn’t this because there was a Piter that was killed, and the Piter of Dune was a replacement (Might have been a PoD thing).
5. Elacca wood is described as "wood from Elacca"in this book. According to Dune, elacca wood (note lack of capitalization) comes from Ecaz. The official explanation for this mistake was (if I remember correctly) that Elacca is the region on Ecaz where these trees grow)
   
   I find this to be an acceptable explanation. Shouldn’t the e in the original have been capitalized? It does strike me as a proper name.
6. Dune Messiah refers to the Ixian Confederacy, indicating no noble House ruled Ix. In this book it is ruled by "House Vernius".
   
   If I follow the combined story line correctly, it is because the Confederacy took control away from the ruling family, turning them into a figurehead. This would be similar to the English Crown losing its ability to call the shots.
7. In Dune it is said that it is generally known that Elrood "succumbed to chaumurky", yet in House Atreides they did this unnoticed.
   
   I can’t comment without going back and rereading this book.
8. In HOUSE ATREIDES, a Guild initiate (D'murr Pilru) starts out as fully human, and then is exposed to a massive overdose of spice gas. He then instantly begins to mutate. Over the next few years, he changes into the Edric-type navigator we know from DM.
   In FH's books we were led to believe this was a change in the species that occured over many, many generations. A combination of zero-g living and dependance on the spice-gas atmosphere, leading to a kind of sub-species, much like the Tleilaxu (having distictive racial traits due to branching evolution).
   
   I don’t think Frank really says enough to get a good read on this. He never talks about mating, or any gender (that I recall). I think that it is quite plausible to attribute this to a spice reaction to the scale of immersion that is alluded to in the originals.
9. Fixing a crysknife is explained as "keyed to the body of the owner so it would dissolve upon his death" in this book. In Dune "Fixed knives are treated for storage"--Exactly the opposite.
   
   Need more info before I would comment on this.
10. Castle Caladan in this book:

    THE NEXT DAY, a calm and sunny morning, Leto stood next to Rhombur at an open window, admiring the quays at the base of the promontory. The ocean spread out like a blue-green prairie, curving off to the distant horizon.

    Castle Caladan in DUNE:

    Jessica crossed to the window, flung wide the draperies, stared across the river orchards toward Mount Syubi.

    The Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam sat in a tapestried chair watching mother and son approach. Windows on each side of her overlooked the curving southern bend of the river and the green farmlands of the Atreides family holding, but the Reverend Mother ignored the view....

    Jessica stood facing the south windows. She saw and yet did not see the evening's banked colors across meadow and river. She heard and yet did not hear the Reverend Mother's question.

    The only time Castle Caladan is anywhere near the sea, is in the David Lynch movie... and in PAUL OF DUNE.
    
    Castle Caladan could have views that would be in keeping both of these. FH never said it was an inland Castle. It is easy to envision a Castle situated with one side to the sea, one side to a tributary river leading into the sea, and surrounded by farmland.
11. Lasguns in HOUSE ATREIDES:

    "He fired a near-invisible bolt of white-orange fire from the lasgun..."

    Lasguns in DUNE:

    "Paul pointed to the violence above the distant cliff--the jetflares, the purple beams of lasguns lacing the desert."

    The authors have corrected their error by HOUSE HARKONNEN.
    
    Totally irreverent errata (mistake or not)
12. Here the Battle of Corrin is said to be the final battle of the Butlerian Jihad, fought by the "Bridge of Hrethgir":

    Don't you know anything about the Battle of Corrin, the great betrayal, the Bridge of Hrethgir? How a cowardly Harkonnen ancestor almost cost the humans our victory against the hated machine-minds?

    Through battle and high peril, the Atreides family has never to my knowledge committed any treasonous or dishonorable act -- all the way back to their heroism and sacrifice at the Bridge of Hrethgir during the Butlerian Jihad.

    According to DUNE (Terminology of the Empire) it was a space battle that took place twenty years after the Butlerian Jihad was over:

    JIHAD, BUTLERIAN: (see also Great Revolt) -- the crusade against computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots begun in 201 B.G. and concluded in 108 B.G.

    CORRIN, BATTLE OF: the space battle from which the Imperial House Corrino took its name. The battle fought near Sigma Draconis in the year 88 B.G.

    Appears to be a real discrepancy, but is insignificant. The only place any dates are mentioned are in this spot. I will have to go back and reread BoC to see if they explicitly say that this is in or after the crusade.
13. House Atreides makes Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam out to be Jessica's mother. We know definitely that Frank Herbert did not intend this, as it was the only entry in The Dune Encyclopedia he objected to. (Willis McNelly convinced him to let it be included as a joke.) [SOURCE?
    
    I could not find anywhere where FH said this was not true, just references that claim it was a joke. Does anyone have a link to source material for this?
    
    In CHILDREN OF DUNE:

    "They know you're a Harkonnen! It'll be in their breeding records: Jessica out of Tanidia Nerus by the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen.

    In HOUSE HARKONNEN the authors explain away this discrepancy with this:

    The girl must never know her heritage, must never suspect. Even on the
    secret Bene Gesserit breeding charts, Mohiam was not identified by her Sisterhood-adopted name, but by her birth name of "Tanidia Nerus."

    The problem with this is; why doesn't Jessica call her by her real name later on, when she has OM?
    
    See my OM comments at the bottom
14. (thin) Baron Harkonnen rapes Mohiam. She infects him with a disease that makes him fat, when it clearly states in Frank's books:

    He was a fat, monstrous..." "He was a seeker after sensations," Moneo said. "The fat was a side-effect, then perhaps something to experience for itself because it offended people and he enjoyed offending."

    There was yet some rigidity in his fat, but it was obvious to the eye that he'd come one day to the portable suspensors for carrying his excess weight.

    "Here's one who won't let himself go to fat"

    And of course, Alia starts getting fat when she is possesed by the Baron in Children of Dune, and STDs can of course not be transfered through OM.
    
    Moneo did not know the Baron directly, so this could be an embellished tale. I believe that the Baron kept it secret in HH. The Baron did revel in his excesses during the rest of his life, so there is no real conflict with Alia gaining some weight before her death.
15. In GEoD we are told that Duncan had a sister that was killed by the Harkonnens. She's never mentioned in this book when he escapes from the Harkonnens.
    
    I don’t think this is important. If it were important FH would have mentioned it in Dune, and not waited until GEoD.
16. The construction of the Harkonnen no-room in HoD - HoD firmly establishes that "the whole no-globe complex, some two hundred meters in diameter, was a fossil preserved intact from the time of the Tyrant."
    Chigger asked KJA about this in an email interview, and his response was that this wasn't the chamber in Heretics, this was a completely different technology that was totally unrelated to the later no-chambers and no-ships. [NOTE: check the whole Baron/Jessica/Leto II OM knowledge of this "old" No-ship tech problem]
    
    See my OM quotes at the bottom.
17. Here cyborgs do not violate the tenents of the Butlerian Jihad.

    Shaddam frowned, leaning closer and smelling the sour spice beer on the old
    man's breath. "Cyborgs? But they are human minds attached to robot bodies, and
    therefore not in violation of the Jihad."

    According to CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE, they do:

    "Cyborgs?" [...] Didn't Idaho know the residue of revulsion left by the Butlerian Jihad even among the Bene Gesserit?

    I’d have to go back and reread this part to comment – I need a better context.
18. Shaddam is crowned by a priest of Dur. However, Dur was a name given to Leto II in the Scattering, several thousand years later.
    It's been noted that the god Abu d' Dhur, "Father of the Indefinite Roads of Time" is mentioned in Dune Messiah, but that is a bit of a stretch.
    
    Yes, you hate this argument, but that could have been something from FH’s notes. It needs more research.
19. C'Tair on Ix invents the "cross-dimensional Rogo transceiver" communication device. Strangely enough, it is never heard from again in the later books by Frank Herbert.

No comment on this. Need more information first.

The OM argument is the one that I think needs to be explored more fully. I do not believe that ANY person with OM has total and instant recall of all of the memories of all of the past lives. I dropped a quote in another thread that I think supports this, and will repost it here along with another quote I found last night from Children of Dune that I think is pertinent.

Let me know what you think…

Children of Dune – Page 213 half way down.
“There were in olden times certain tribes which were known to be water hunters. They were called Iduali, which meant ‘water insects,’ because those people wouldn’t hesitate to steal the water of another Fremen. If they caught you alone in the desert they would not even leave yoy the water of the flesh. There was this place where they lived: Stetch Jacurutu. That’s where the other tribes banded and wiped out the Iduali. Thea was a long time ago, before Kynes even – in my great-great-grandfather’s days. And from that day to this, no Freman has gone to Jacurutu. It is tabu.”
Thus had Leto been reminded of knowledge which lay in his memory. It had been an important lesson about the working of memory. A memory was not enough, even for one whose past was as multiform as his, unless its use was known and its value revealed to judgment.

Here is an example from Chapterhouse, where Tam is being questioned by Odrade about her desert experience:

“Other Memory tells me what I need to know” (Tam)
“It’s not the same, Tam. You have to do it yourself”

I think this also supports the difference between other memory and Gohla memory.

[SandChigger]

Wow! KJA finally come through with some answers now that he's back from the tour?

I need to get my copy of Heretics back from a friend, but I seem to recall that it wasn’t so much their being religious, but more about the particular belief structure that was a surprise.

Blah blah blah. Supporting quotes or shut up about it until you get your book back.

In DUNE we are told that Harmonthep is "supposed to have been a no longer existent satellite of Delta Pavonis", yet it is mentioned several times in HOUSE ATREIDES. In DUNE, Delta Pavonis is the sun of Caladan (= Delta Pavonis III), so Harmonthep and Caladan were in the same system. It was destroyed by the time of the events in DUNE:

HARMONTHEP: Ingsley gives this as the planet name for the sixth stop in the
Zensunni migration. It is supposed to have been a no longer existent satellite
of Delta Pavonis.
~Dune, Terminology of the Imperium

Not sure what the significance of this is. Is there a reason that the two could not have been in the same system?

The "significance" is that the two HAD to be in the same system (only one Delta Pavonis) and there's no mention or description in any book of Harmonthep's destruction ... which, since it would have had to have happened between the time of Leto I's youth and the time of Dune, IN the same solar system as Caladan, the Atreides home world, would probably have been a noteworthy event. Plus in House Atreides it's described as being in ANOTHER star system.

Either way you spin it, INCONSISTENCY.

I didn’t buy the house books, so I cannot look this up, but wasn’t this because there was a Piter that was killed, and the Piter of Dune was a replacement (Might have been a PoD thing).

Support with quotes or shut up. If you can't keep what happened in which book straight, shut up until you get it straight.

Elacca wood is described as "wood from Elacca" in this book. According to Dune, elacca wood (note lack of capitalization) comes from Ecaz. The official explanation for this mistake was (if I remember correctly) that Elacca is the region on Ecaz where these trees grow)

I find this to be an acceptable explanation. Shouldn’t the e in the original have been capitalized? It does strike me as a proper name.

Ah, but of course! FH was WRONG! He forgot to capitalize it! (Never eat off china, I suppose.)

Dune Messiah refers to the Ixian Confederacy, indicating no noble House ruled Ix. In this book it is ruled by "House Vernius".

If I follow the combined story line correctly, it is because the Confederacy took control away from the ruling family, turning them into a figurehead. This would be similar to the English Crown losing its ability to call the shots.

Except there's no mention anywhere IN THE ORIGINALS of House Vernius. Or Rhombur the cyborg. People of such importance to House Atreides would deserve at least ONE mention, no?

In Dune it is said that it is generally known that Elrood "succumbed to chaumurky", yet in House Atreides they did this unnoticed.

I can’t comment without going back and rereading this book.

No, of course not. So ... shut up.

In HOUSE ATREIDES, a Guild initiate (D'murr Pilru) starts out as fully human, and then is exposed to a massive overdose of spice gas. He then instantly begins to mutate. Over the next few years, he changes into the Edric-type navigator we know from DM.

In FH's books we were led to believe this was a change in the species that occured over many, many generations. A combination of zero-g living and dependance on the spice-gas atmosphere, leading to a kind of sub-species, much like the Tleilaxu (having distictive racial traits due to branching evolution).

I don’t think Frank really says enough to get a good read on this. He never talks about mating, or any gender (that I recall). I think that it is quite plausible to attribute this to a spice reaction to the scale of immersion that is alluded to in the originals.

Think again, plumcake:

He thought about this. Guild navigators diverged widely from humankind's more common shape. Born in space and living out their lives in tanks of melange gas, they distorted the original form, elongated and repositioned limbs and organs. But a young navigator in estrus and before entering the tank could breed with a norm. It had been demonstrated. They became non-human but not in the way of the Bene Gesserit.

Oh, right, you don't have your copy of Heretics right now. How fucking convenient!

Fixing a crysknife is explained as "keyed to the body of the owner so it would dissolve upon his death" in this book. In Dune "Fixed knives are treated for storage"--Exactly the opposite.

Need more info before I would comment on this.

Naturally. STFU.

Castle Caladan in this book:

THE NEXT DAY, a calm and sunny morning, Leto stood next to Rhombur at an open window, admiring the quays at the base of the promontory. The ocean spread out like a blue-green prairie, curving off to the distant horizon.

Castle Caladan in DUNE:

Jessica crossed to the window, flung wide the draperies, stared across the river orchards toward Mount Syubi.

The Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam sat in a tapestried chair watching mother and son approach. Windows on each side of her overlooked the curving southern bend of the river and the green farmlands of the Atreides family holding, but the Reverend Mother ignored the view....

Jessica stood facing the south windows. She saw and yet did not see the evening's banked colors across meadow and river. She heard and yet did not hear the Reverend Mother's question.

The only time Castle Caladan is anywhere near the sea, is in the David Lynch movie... and in PAUL OF DUNE.

Castle Caladan could have views that would be in keeping both of these. FH never said it was an inland Castle. It is easy to envision a Castle situated with one side to the sea, one side to a tributary river leading into the sea, and surrounded by farmland.

But of course. Overlooking a fishing village down below.

Lasguns in HOUSE ATREIDES:

"He fired a near-invisible bolt of white-orange fire from the lasgun..."

Lasguns in DUNE:

"Paul pointed to the violence above the distant cliff--the jetflares, the purple beams of lasguns lacing the desert."

The authors have corrected their error by HOUSE HARKONNEN.

Totally irreverent errata (mistake or not)

Sorry, you don't get to declare things "irreverent", especially when you mean IRRELEVANT. It's a mistake, period. They didn't research, they didn't care.

Here the Battle of Corrin is said to be the final battle of the Butlerian Jihad, fought by the "Bridge of Hrethgir":

Don't you know anything about the Battle of Corrin, the great betrayal, the Bridge of Hrethgir? How a cowardly Harkonnen ancestor almost cost the humans our victory against the hated machine-minds?

Through battle and high peril, the Atreides family has never to my knowledge committed any treasonous or dishonorable act -- all the way back to their heroism and sacrifice at the Bridge of Hrethgir during the Butlerian Jihad.

According to DUNE (Terminology of the Empire) it was a space battle that took place twenty years after the Butlerian Jihad was over:

JIHAD, BUTLERIAN: (see also Great Revolt) -- the crusade against computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots begun in 201 B.G. and concluded in 108 B.G.

CORRIN, BATTLE OF: the space battle from which the Imperial House Corrino took its name. The battle fought near Sigma Draconis in the year 88 B.G.

Appears to be a real discrepancy, but is insignificant. The only place any dates are mentioned are in this spot. I will have to go back and reread BoC to see if they explicitly say that this is in or after the crusade.

Doesn't matter. The Jihad was FINISHED in 108 B.G. The Battle of Corrin had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE JIHAD. It was a HUMAN ON HUMAN battle to determine WHO RULED THE IMPERIUM.

In GEoD we are told that Duncan had a sister that was killed by the Harkonnens. She's never mentioned in this book when he escapes from the Harkonnens.

I don’t think this is important. If it were important FH would have mentioned it in Dune, and not waited until GEoD.

You don't think, period.

Here cyborgs do not violate the tenents of the Butlerian Jihad.

Shaddam frowned, leaning closer and smelling the sour spice beer on the old man's breath. "Cyborgs? But they are human minds attached to robot bodies, and therefore not in violation of the Jihad."

According to CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE, they do:

"Cyborgs?" [...] Didn't Idaho know the residue of revulsion left by the Butlerian Jihad even among the Bene Gesserit?

I’d have to go back and reread this part to comment – I need a better context.

Not an answer.

Shaddam is crowned by a priest of Dur. However, Dur was a name given to Leto II in the Scattering, several thousand years later.
It's been noted that the god Abu d' Dhur, "Father of the Indefinite Roads of Time" is mentioned in Dune Messiah, but that is a bit of a stretch.

Yes, you hate this argument, but that could have been something from FH’s notes. It needs more research.

Yes, I hate it because it's STUPID and shows just how LANGUAGE IGNORANT KJA/BH are. 'D' and 'DH' are two different sounds. (DHat's the way the Dung falls.) And if it's from FH's Notes, why don't they say so? (Oh, DO ask KJA about the totally BOGUS "Chisra Sala Muad'Dib" BULLSHIT in WoD while you're at it, there's a dear.)

C'Tair on Ix invents the "cross-dimensional Rogo transceiver" communication device. Strangely enough, it is never heard from again in the later books by Frank Herbert.

No comment on this. Need more information first.

But of course.

In CHILDREN OF DUNE:

"They know you're a Harkonnen! It'll be in their breeding records: Jessica out of Tanidia Nerus by the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen.

In HOUSE HARKONNEN the authors explain away this discrepancy with this:

The girl must never know her heritage, must never suspect. Even on the secret Bene Gesserit breeding charts, Mohiam was not identified by her Sisterhood-adopted name, but by her birth name of "Tanidia Nerus."

The problem with this is; why doesn't Jessica call her by her real name later on, when she has OM?

See my OM comments at the bottom

Seen and judged irrelevant.

Characters don't have to have "instant recall of all of the memories of all of the past lives". ALL they would have had to do was but think of Mohiam and there she would be, ONE OR TWO ANCESTORS BACK, if she were really Jessica's mother. This isn't the same thing as details about people in a Fremen story from "olden times". (Presumably there were no Iduali among Leto II's ancestors.)

I think this also supports the difference between other memory and Gohla memory.

I see no basis for this.

GRADE: MASSIVE FAIL.

Tell Kevin to try harder next time.

[Hunchback Jack]

Wow. That was ... incredible.

Conway, why are you even *trying* to explain away these pretty obvious mistakes - or stating they are "irrelevant" or "unimportant" when you do concede they are mistakes?

It's pretty obvious that you will still love the books and continue to buy them even if there were a thousand more mistakes like this. It's clear that BH and KJA don't care about the details of Dune ... and you don't care that they don't care.

At some point, you'd be better off just cutting your losses and saying "Yes, they fucked up, but it doesn't bother me. I'm sorry that it bothers you so much", rather than using semantic contortions - or even worse, deliberately twisting the text of the originals - to try to cover the mistakes. It just makes you look ridiculous and obtuse.

HBJ

[SandRider]

Piter is addicted to sapho juice in this book, but that is never mentioned in Dune. In Dune he is a spice addict; which of course is never mentioned in House Atreides...

I didn’t buy the house books, so I cannot look this up, but wasn’t this because there was a Piter that was killed, and the Piter of Dune was a replacement (Might have been a PoD thing).

This is why it's so difficult to discuss Frank's book with people like you.
You can't keep the real story straight because of KJA ....


In Dune it is said that it is generally known that Elrood "succumbed to chaumurky", yet in House Atreides they did this unnoticed.

I can’t comment without going back and rereading this book.

and yet you just did ...


Fixing a crysknife is explained as "keyed to the body of the owner so it would dissolve upon his death" in this book. In Dune "Fixed knives are treated for storage"--Exactly the opposite.

Need more info before I would comment on this.

all the info you need is right there.

or do you think dunaddict is just pumping sunshine up skirts ?
on a board full of Dune Scholars who'd pounce and correct a canon error in a heartbeat ?

If you're going to require a scanned jpeg of every page from Frank's books
to be posted when someone makes a statement of known fact, fuck off. Asshat.

That really just pissed me off.




In GEoD we are told that Duncan had a sister that was killed by the Harkonnens. She's never mentioned in this book when he escapes from the Harkonnens.

I don’t think this is important. If it were important FH would have mentioned it in Dune, and not waited until GEoD.

you COMPLETELY missed the point of this one.

if Keith, the fucking biggest Dune fan in the fucking universe, decided to tell Duncan's
backstory, including the escape from the Harkonnens, and not take into account the
story of the sister, the basis for Duncan's hatred of the Harkonnens, then we will
assume this is because Keith himself didn't remember this detail, because, as with all
these other "little details", he hasn't actually studied Frank's work. Maybe read over
it once or twice, most likey with an eye to what he could exploit.

Keith isn't even a Dune-fan on the level of most pretards. I'd bet YOU'D even
beat him at Dune trivia.

Well, no, but you get my point ...

or you probably don't.


Shaddam is crowned by a priest of Dur. However, Dur was a name given to Leto II in the Scattering, several thousand years later.
It's been noted that the god Abu d' Dhur, "Father of the Indefinite Roads of Time" is mentioned in Dune Messiah, but that is a bit of a stretch.

Yes, you hate this argument, but that could have been something from FH’s notes. It needs more research.

first thing you've EVER said that I could agree with.

not that the priest of Dur bullshit, but that Frank's notes should be available
for research.

Why don't you ask your buddy Keith in his private forum when they are going to
turn over all of Frank's notes in HLP hands to the Fullerton Archive.

(you may need to explain to Keith just what & where the Fullerton Archive is ...)




and I didn't understand what point you're trying to make about Other Memory.
not sure that you did, either.

***********

just read thru Chig's response - he's a little bitchy & unforgiving tonight.

I'm drunk & full of muscle relaxants, so I feel prety good, and while you
pissed me off good once, and most of your answers reveal a serious lack of
understanding of Frank's Dune, I'll give you credit for trying, atleast.

I think the only way you're going to find any peace here is to admit to
the Simon Gambit - KJA sucks as a real writer, the new Dune books are not
worth more than a quick airport read, they have little to nothing to do
with Frank's book except for some names & places, they're written on an
8th grade reading level, but hey - I like them. I like Star Wars and
Warhammer books, too, I have stacks of comic books in my Mom's basement,
and really don't like to be challenged when I read ....

if you come around here with that attitude, I'd be much more tolerant.

(Chigger won't, he nurses grudges for years.)

[lotek]

Conway: 0
Sandchigger: 1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1...

Totally irreverent errata (mistake or not)

Don't you luv' your "rr"?

Btw errata is the plural form of erratum isn't it?
Btw2 here's your definition of "erratum":

erratum
Noun
pl -ta an error in writing or printing [Latin]
ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Noun 1. erratum - a mistake in printed matter resulting from mechanical failures of some kind
literal, literal error, misprint, typo, typographical error
mistake, error - part of a statement that is not correct; "the book was full of errors"

So saying it's a "totally irrelevent(don't mind me I like using the correct words when I try to show off)erratum(sorry done it again)(mistake or not)" is called a redundancy(let's forget the "or not" which cannot be as an erratum is always a mistake )

In language, redundancy is the use of duplicative, unnecessary or useless wording. Some people expand the definition to include self-contradictory wording.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redundancy_(language" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) (ok wiki isn't the most reliable source, but i'll quote you on this one and say I don't have the time to look it up)

Feel free to use that new word again, you'll need it if you carry on reading the Mcdunes

[Leto]

In GEoD we are told that Duncan had a sister that was killed by the Harkonnens. She's never mentioned in this book when he escapes from the Harkonnens.

I don’t think this is important. If it were important FH would have mentioned it in Dune, and not waited until GEoD.

you COMPLETELY missed the point of this one.

if Keith, the fucking biggest Dune fan in the fucking universe, decided to tell Duncan's backstory, including the escape from the Harkonnens, and not take into account the story of the sister, the basis for Duncan's hatred of the Harkonnens, then we will assume this is because Keith himself didn't remember this detail, because, as with all these other "little details", he hasn't actually studied Frank's work. Maybe read over it once or twice, most likey with an eye to what he could exploit.

+1
Furthermore, I believed Brian & Kevin wrote a Concordance (mentionned here by Brian himself!!) in which they noticed anything RELEVANT about Dune, in order to have the most beautiful database on Dune (and, as Brian says, that's why they are the most legitimate to write sequels/prequels/interquels/Dune's comics aso...).
That's why it's IMPORTANT. With such a Concordance tool, it's impossible to fail such an event except if :
1° you haven't such a tool (or you botched it)
2° you haven't read sufficiently the Chronicles

Choose you side : are they liers or dumbers?

if you come around here with that attitude, I'd be much more tolerant.

We all were (is this correct english?!).

p.s : 'rider, I do love comics, what should I do??

[Nekhrun]

Redbug: You are trying to answer these while at the same time admitting that you don't know enough about FH's work to answer them properly. This is exactly why we're so upset. WE KNOW FRANK'S BOOKS! You clearly don't, if you have to go back and look up the simplest things. Why don't you take a few more weeks off, actually read the FH novels and then try again. You've made yourself look even sillier by trying to explain these away without addressing what the problems with consistency are. You've wasted everyone's time with this post.

How about answering this question first...

Do you think that while writing in another person's established universe that is loved by millions that it is imperative to remain consistent to the source material?

[SandChigger]

And do you also realize that you have done nothing to dispel the notion that you are getting answers from KJA?

'Cause he don't know nuttin' about Dune, either.

[Slugger]

(snip-snip-snip)
The OM argument is the one that I think needs to be explored more fully. I do not believe that ANY person with OM has total and instant recall of all of the memories of all of the past lives. I dropped a quote in another thread that I think supports this, and will repost it here along with another quote I found last night from Children of Dune that I think is pertinent.
(snip)
Here is an example from Chapterhouse, where Tam is being questioned by Odrade about her desert experience:
“Other Memory tells me what I need to know” (Tam)
“It’s not the same, Tam. You have to do it yourself”

Well, in Heretics:

(Teg's thinking) Odrade, this daughter out of his past, was a full Reverend Mother with
extraordinary powers of muscle and nerve control -- full memories on the female
side!

(That's on page 105 of my PDF copy, btw).

I don't know how much clearer you can get?

[Freakzilla]

Wow... WOW!

I just read some of your "answers" Red. I'm at my paren't house right now with my kids and don't have time to deal with this.

In fact, your Dune miseducation is going to take YEARS to correct.

Let me start by saying that the BT being Zensunni-sufi itself was a complete suprise to the BG.

I suggest you forget everything Pinky & The Brian wrote, go read FH's books, then come back because this is very nearly a lost cause.

The sad thing is, you'll probably not find anyone more willing to discuss FH's Dune with you than me.

[redbugpest]

(snip-snip-snip)
The OM argument is the one that I think needs to be explored more fully. I do not believe that ANY person with OM has total and instant recall of all of the memories of all of the past lives. I dropped a quote in another thread that I think supports this, and will repost it here along with another quote I found last night from Children of Dune that I think is pertinent.
(snip)
Here is an example from Chapterhouse, where Tam is being questioned by Odrade about her desert experience:
“Other Memory tells me what I need to know” (Tam)
“It’s not the same, Tam. You have to do it yourself”

Well, in Heretics:

(Teg's thinking) Odrade, this daughter out of his past, was a full Reverend Mother with
extraordinary powers of muscle and nerve control -- full memories on the female
side!

(That's on page 105 of my PDF copy, btw).

I don't know how much clearer you can get?

I’m not saying that they do not have full memories as RMs, just that having them does not mean that there is instant / automatic recall of everything that is contained in those memories. It seems to me that it workes more like accessing our natural memories.

[Freakzilla]

How desperately she wanted to project her beleaguered self into past
identities and feel what it had been to live then. The immediate peril of
this enticement chilled her. She felt Other Memory crowding the edges of
awareness. "It was like this!" "No! It was more like this!" How greedy
they were. You had to pick and choose, discreetly animating the past.
And was that not the purpose of consciousness, the very essence of being
alive?

...

..........................................Reverend Mothers were supposed
to dig into Other Memory this way only with Chapterhouse permission
and then only with guidance and support from companion Sisters.

~Chapterhouse: Dune

[Redstar]

(snip-snip-snip)
The OM argument is the one that I think needs to be explored more fully. I do not believe that ANY person with OM has total and instant recall of all of the memories of all of the past lives. I dropped a quote in another thread that I think supports this, and will repost it here along with another quote I found last night from Children of Dune that I think is pertinent.
(snip)
Here is an example from Chapterhouse, where Tam is being questioned by Odrade about her desert experience:
“Other Memory tells me what I need to know” (Tam)
“It’s not the same, Tam. You have to do it yourself”

Well, in Heretics:

(Teg's thinking) Odrade, this daughter out of his past, was a full Reverend Mother with
extraordinary powers of muscle and nerve control -- full memories on the female
side!

(That's on page 105 of my PDF copy, btw).

I don't know how much clearer you can get?

I’m not saying that they do not have full memories as RMs, just that having them does not mean that there is instant / automatic recall of everything that is contained in those memories. It seems to me that it workes more like accessing our natural memories.

If you compare OM/AM to natural memories like that, then I'd say that's instantaneous enough... Does it really take you more than a few seconds to recall something that happened even a year ago?

[redbugpest]

Wow... WOW!

I just read some of your "answers" Red. I'm at my paren't house right now with my kids and don't have time to deal with this.

In fact, your Dune miseducation is going to take YEARS to correct.

Let me start by saying that the BT being Zensunni-sufi itself was a complete suprise to the BG.

I suggest you forget everything Pinky & The Brian wrote, go read FH's books, then come back because this is very nearly a lost cause.

The sad thing is, you'll probably not find anyone more willing to discuss FH's Dune with you than me.

I am rereading the series now because I enjoy it and I am more of a “want to see it for myself” person.

I’ll take this opportunity to repost a few of my comments from the Good Morning thread:

“… I admit that there are some folks here that do have a lot of Dune knowledge - it's just unfortunate that we do not agree on the new Dune works.


…and expanding my Dune understanding...

… I have my own strong opinions, and look forward to debating the topics. I don't pretend to be an expert, but I think I am capable of looking at information and determining if it is really fact, or just someone’s interpretations.

I always keep an open mind, and am willing to change my belief structure as new information becomes available. This will go where it goes.”

I meant what I said.

I’ll leave you with this thought out of Children:

“When you believe something is right or wrong, true or false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.”

I think it can be said to apply to both sides of the issue.

[SandRider]

I don't think you want to quote Frank at us, Brian.

And fix the HTML code in your sig.

Obvious troll fail is obvious.

[redbugpest]

(snip-snip-snip)
The OM argument is the one that I think needs to be explored more fully. I do not believe that ANY person with OM has total and instant recall of all of the memories of all of the past lives. I dropped a quote in another thread that I think supports this, and will repost it here along with another quote I found last night from Children of Dune that I think is pertinent.
(snip)
Here is an example from Chapterhouse, where Tam is being questioned by Odrade about her desert experience:
“Other Memory tells me what I need to know” (Tam)
“It’s not the same, Tam. You have to do it yourself”

Well, in Heretics:

(Teg's thinking) Odrade, this daughter out of his past, was a full Reverend Mother with
extraordinary powers of muscle and nerve control -- full memories on the female
side!

(That's on page 105 of my PDF copy, btw).

I don't know how much clearer you can get?

I’m not saying that they do not have full memories as RMs, just that having them does not mean that there is instant / automatic recall of everything that is contained in those memories. It seems to me that it workes more like accessing our natural memories.

If you compare OM/AM to natural memories like that, then I'd say that's instantaneous enough... Does it really take you more than a few seconds to recall something that happened even a year ago?

How about something from when you were 2 or 3 years old - not so easy. Memory is complicated and messy. It is not like a computer database that can be searched on keywords.

Memory is more of multidimensional loosely associated blending of datum. Sometimes it is a simple as a scent that triggers it, sometimes you will not remember something that happened to you, but someone else will recall it with vivid clarity.

Now, take all of the details of your life experiences and multiply them by one billion.

Can you see why I think that it is just not so simple as to say “she had OM”?

[Redstar]

(snip-snip-snip)
The OM argument is the one that I think needs to be explored more fully. I do not believe that ANY person with OM has total and instant recall of all of the memories of all of the past lives. I dropped a quote in another thread that I think supports this, and will repost it here along with another quote I found last night from Children of Dune that I think is pertinent.
(snip)
Here is an example from Chapterhouse, where Tam is being questioned by Odrade about her desert experience:
“Other Memory tells me what I need to know” (Tam)
“It’s not the same, Tam. You have to do it yourself”

Well, in Heretics:

(Teg's thinking) Odrade, this daughter out of his past, was a full Reverend Mother with
extraordinary powers of muscle and nerve control -- full memories on the female
side!

(That's on page 105 of my PDF copy, btw).

I don't know how much clearer you can get?

I’m not saying that they do not have full memories as RMs, just that having them does not mean that there is instant / automatic recall of everything that is contained in those memories. It seems to me that it workes more like accessing our natural memories.

If you compare OM/AM to natural memories like that, then I'd say that's instantaneous enough... Does it really take you more than a few seconds to recall something that happened even a year ago?

How about something from when you were 2 or 3 years old - not so easy. Memory is complicated and messy. It is not like a computer database that can be searched on keywords.

Memory is more of multidimensional loosely associated blending of datum. Sometimes it is a simple as a scent that triggers it, sometimes you will not remember something that happened to you, but someone else will recall it with vivid clarity.

Now, take all of the details of your life experiences and multiply them by one billion.

Can you see why I think that it is just not so simple as to say “she had OM”?

Yeah, you got me there... I can't, except the Bene Gesserit aren't modern humans. They're the product of thousands of years of selective breeding, are raised with utmost psychological care and educational stimuli, and provided with specific diet and medical care. Yeah, I think they can handle it.

[SandRider]

Look, brian, think about it this way -

bene gesserit are jedi - they just use the force, mmmm'kay?

close the tags in you sig

[redbugpest]

That is contradictory to what I quoted earlier...

"Thus had Leto been reminded of knowledge which lay in his memory. It had been an important lesson about the working of memory. A memory was not enough, even for one whose past was as multiform as his, unless its use was known and its value revealed to judgment."

I think that here FH is telling us that they have to associate it the same as any other memory. Otherwise, Leto would not have had to wonder about if the stories about what happened at Jacurutu were right accurate. He would have known with a certainty if the water had been poisoned, as he was looking for signs of life when he got there, and would have never doubted that it was the right place as he did.

[SandRider]

Leto had much greater OM than the bene gesserit .....

what was your point in the first place ?

[redbugpest]

Leto had much greater OM than the bene gesserit .....

what was your point in the first place ?

(snip-snip-snip)
The OM argument is the one that I think needs to be explored more fully. I do not believe that ANY person with OM has total and instant recall of all of the memories of all of the past lives. I dropped a quote in another thread that I think supports this, and will repost it here along with another quote I found last night from Children of Dune that I think is pertinent.
(snip)
Here is an example from Chapterhouse, where Tam is being questioned by Odrade about her desert experience:
“Other Memory tells me what I need to know” (Tam)
“It’s not the same, Tam. You have to do it yourself”

Well, in Heretics:

(Teg's thinking) Odrade, this daughter out of his past, was a full Reverend Mother with
extraordinary powers of muscle and nerve control -- full memories on the female
side!

(That's on page 105 of my PDF copy, btw).

I don't know how much clearer you can get?

I’m not saying that they do not have full memories as RMs, just that having them does not mean that there is instant / automatic recall of everything that is contained in those memories. It seems to me that it workes more like accessing our natural memories.

If you compare OM/AM to natural memories like that, then I'd say that's instantaneous enough... Does it really take you more than a few seconds to recall something that happened even a year ago?

How about something from when you were 2 or 3 years old - not so easy. Memory is complicated and messy. It is not like a computer database that can be searched on keywords.

Memory is more of multidimensional loosely associated blending of datum. Sometimes it is a simple as a scent that triggers it, sometimes you will not remember something that happened to you, but someone else will recall it with vivid clarity.

Now, take all of the details of your life experiences and multiply them by one billion.

Can you see why I think that it is just not so simple as to say “she had OM”?

A short recap just for you.

So are you saying that Leto's OM was inferior to the RMs version of it? He obviously needed to have his memory jogged a bit, but it seems that you all believe that RM's just "Know"

[SandChigger]

How the fuck do you go from

Leto had much greater OM than the bene gesserit .....

to

So are you saying that Leto's OM was inferior to the RMs version of it?

That doesn't even make sense as one of your usual obfuscations.

He obviously needed to have his memory jogged a bit, but it seems that you all believe that RM's just "Know"

Where has anyone said that?

I think that here FH is telling us that they have to associate it the same as any other memory. Otherwise, Leto would not have had to wonder about if the stories about what happened at Jacurutu were right accurate. He would have known with a certainty if the water had been poisoned, as he was looking for signs of life when he got there, and would have never doubted that it was the right place as he did.

Simple solution: he has no memories from anyone who had a direct part in the destruction of Jacurutu. It had taken place only four or five generations earlier; not really time for the memories to get spread to everyone in the tribe.

A little later he certainly seems to have no problems recalling FOR SIMPLE DIVERSION the memories of an ancestor who made the pilgrimage to Canterbury.

[Freakzilla]

I just provided you a quote that said Odrade could delve into OM and FEEL what it was like to live then.

When you think of memories of your childhood, do you FEEL what living then was like?

No, if that were so we would treat our children much differently.





I don't PRETEND to be an expert either, I've studied these books for over twenty years.

[redbugpest]

I just provided you a quote that said Odrade could delve into OM and FEEL what it was like to live then.

When you think of memories of your childhood, do you FEEL what living then was like?

No, if that were so we would treat our children much differently.





I don't PRETEND to be an expert either, I've studied these books for over twenty years.

Was the quote in a different thread? I am not seeing it here.

I don’t disagree with the concept of OM allowing the person to re-experience the events, but rather that they do not have all encompassing immediate access to any memory that would be beneficial at any given moment. It is too easy to say that they “should have known it because of OM”

Even Leto, who by GEoD did have such unrestricted access, had to assimilate and organize these memories within him (see quote). I find it difficult to believe that RMs had this same level of recall.

Page 291 Children of Dune
Leto thinking to himself:

“The total recall of all those lives within him was of no use at all until he could organize the data and remember it at will.”

RM’s also were limited to the knowledge and experience of the female lines as well.