"New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

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"New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby dunaddict » 10 Jul 2009 12:13

This topic will list all the inconsistencies found on this board in the Dune prequels, sequel and "interquels". Feel free to PM me (or the mods) if the info is incorrect.
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby dunaddict » 10 Jul 2009 12:14

House Atreides

  1. In this book It appears to be general knowledge that the Tleilaxu are religious fanatics. So how come it is such a major revelation for the Bene Gesserit in HERETICS OF DUNE and is not known to any character in the Chronicles before that?
    Shaddam in HOUSE ATREIDES wrote:"He didn't like to think of the gnomelike men; religious fanatics, the Bene Tleilax were intensely secretive and did not invite guests."


  2. One of the central plot points is the death of Leto's father, Duke Paulus. This happens before Jessica is born. However, in DUNE, Jessica displays what can only be first-hand experience of the Old Duke:
    Jessica turned away, faced the painting of Leto's father. [...] She clenched her fists at her sides, glared at the painting. "Damn you! Damn you! Damn you!" she whispered.

    Jessica spoke, shattering the moment. "Besides, Wellington, the Duke is really two men. One of them I love very much. He's charming, witty, considerate... tender--everything a woman could desire. But the other man is... cold, callous, demanding, selfish--as harsh and cruel as a winter wind. That's the man shaped by the father." Her face contorted. "If only that old man had died when my Duke was born!"

    This also seems to indicate the man was a cruel man, not the humorous friendly father type described in HOUSE ATREIDES.

  3. In DUNE we are told that Harmonthep is "supposed to have been a no longer existent satellite of Delta Pavonis", yet it is mentioned several times in HOUSE ATREIDES. In DUNE, Delta Pavonis is the sun of Caladan (= Delta Pavonis III), so Harmonthep and Caladan were in the same system. It was destroyed by the time of the events in DUNE:
    HARMONTHEP: Ingsley gives this as the planet name for the sixth stop in the
    Zensunni migration. It is supposed to have been a no longer existent satellite
    of Delta Pavonis.
    ~Dune, Terminology of the Imperium


  4. Piter is addicted to sapho juice in this book, but that is never mentioned in Dune. In Dune he is a spice addict; which of course is never mentioned in House Atreides...

  5. Elacca wood is described as "wood from Elacca"in this book. According to Dune, elacca wood (note lack of capitalization) comes from Ecaz. The official explanation for this mistake was (if I remember correctly) that Elacca is the region on Ecaz where these trees grow)

  6. Dune Messiah refers to the Ixian Confederacy, indicating no noble House ruled Ix. In this book it is ruled by "House Vernius".

  7. In Dune it is said that it is generally known that Elrood "succumbed to chaumurky", yet in House Atreides they did this unnoticed.

  8. In HOUSE ATREIDES, a Guild initiate (D'murr Pilru) starts out as fully human, and then is exposed to a massive overdose of spice gas. He then instantly begins to mutate. Over the next few years, he changes into the Edric-type navigator we know from DM.
    In FH's books we were led to believe this was a change in the species that occured over many, many generations. A combination of zero-g living and dependance on the spice-gas atmosphere, leading to a kind of sub-species, much like the Tleilaxu (having distictive racial traits due to branching evolution).

  9. Fixing a crysknife is explained as "keyed to the body of the owner so it would dissolve upon his death" in this book. In Dune "Fixed knives are treated for storage"--Exactly the opposite.

  10. Castle Caladan in this book:
    THE NEXT DAY, a calm and sunny morning, Leto stood next to Rhombur at an open window, admiring the quays at the base of the promontory. The ocean spread out like a blue-green prairie, curving off to the distant horizon.

    Castle Caladan in DUNE:
    Jessica crossed to the window, flung wide the draperies, stared across the river orchards toward Mount Syubi.
    The Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam sat in a tapestried chair watching mother and son approach. Windows on each side of her overlooked the curving southern bend of the river and the green farmlands of the Atreides family holding, but the Reverend Mother ignored the view....
    Jessica stood facing the south windows. She saw and yet did not see the evening's banked colors across meadow and river. She heard and yet did not hear the Reverend Mother's question.

    The only time Castle Caladan is anywhere near the sea, is in the David Lynch movie... and in PAUL OF DUNE.

  11. Lasguns in HOUSE ATREIDES:
    "He fired a near-invisible bolt of white-orange fire from the lasgun..."

    Lasguns in DUNE:
    "Paul pointed to the violence above the distant cliff--the jetflares, the purple beams of lasguns lacing the desert."

    The authors have corrected their error by HOUSE HARKONNEN.

  12. Here the Battle of Corrin is said to be the final battle of the Butlerian Jihad, fought by the "Bridge of Hrethgir":
    Don't you know anything about the Battle of Corrin, the great betrayal, the Bridge of Hrethgir? How a cowardly Harkonnen ancestor almost cost the humans our victory against the hated machine-minds?

    Through battle and high peril, the Atreides family has never to my knowledge committed any treasonous or dishonorable act -- all the way back to their heroism and sacrifice at the Bridge of Hrethgir during the Butlerian Jihad.

    According to DUNE (Terminology of the Empire) it was a space battle that took place twenty years after the Butlerian Jihad was over:
    JIHAD, BUTLERIAN: (see also Great Revolt) -- the crusade against computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots begun in 201 B.G. and concluded in 108 B.G.
    CORRIN, BATTLE OF: the space battle from which the Imperial House Corrino took its name. The battle fought near Sigma Draconis in the year 88 B.G.


  13. House Atreides makes Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam out to be Jessica's mother. We know definitely that Frank Herbert did not intend this, as it was the only entry in The Dune Encyclopedia he objected to. (Willis McNelly convinced him to let it be included as a joke.) [SOURCE?
    In CHILDREN OF DUNE:
    "They know you're a Harkonnen! It'll be in their breeding records: Jessica out of Tanidia Nerus by the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen.

    In HOUSE HARKONNEN the authors explain away this discrepancy with this:
    The girl must never know her heritage, must never suspect. Even on the
    secret Bene Gesserit breeding charts, Mohiam was not identified by her Sisterhood-adopted name, but by her birth name of "Tanidia Nerus."

    The problem with this is; why doesn't Jessica call her by her real name later on, when she has OM?

  14. (thin) Baron Harkonnen rapes Mohiam. She infects him with a disease that makes him fat, when it clearly states in Frank's books:
    Leto II in GEoD wrote:He was a fat, monstrous..." "He was a seeker after sensations," Moneo said. "The fat was a side-effect, then perhaps something to experience for itself because it offended people and he enjoyed offending."

    speaking of Rabban in Dune wrote:There was yet some rigidity in his fat, but it was obvious to the eye that he'd come one day to the portable suspensors for carrying his excess weight.

    speaking of Feyd in Dune wrote:"Here's one who won't let himself go to fat"

    And of course, Alia starts getting fat when she is possesed by the Baron in Children of Dune, and STDs can of course not be transfered through OM.

  15. In GEoD we are told that Duncan had a sister that was killed by the Harkonnens. She's never mentioned in this book when he escapes from the Harkonnens.

  16. The construction of the Harkonnen no-room in HoD - HoD firmly establishes that "the whole no-globe complex, some two hundred meters in diameter, was a fossil preserved intact from the time of the Tyrant."
    Chigger asked KJA about this in an email interview, and his response was that this wasn't the chamber in Heretics, this was a completely different technology that was totally unrelated to the later no-chambers and no-ships. [NOTE: check the whole Baron/Jessica/Leto II OM knowledge of this "old" No-ship tech problem]

  17. Here cyborgs do not violate the tenents of the Butlerian Jihad.
    Shaddam frowned, leaning closer and smelling the sour spice beer on the old
    man's breath. "Cyborgs? But they are human minds attached to robot bodies, and
    therefore not in violation of the Jihad."

    According to CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE, they do:
    "Cyborgs?" [...] Didn't Idaho know the residue of revulsion left by the Butlerian Jihad even among the Bene Gesserit?


  18. Shaddam is crowned by a priest of Dur. However, Dur was a name given to Leto II in the Scattering, several thousand years later.
    It's been noted that the god Abu d' Dhur, "Father of the Indefinite Roads of Time" is mentioned in Dune Messiah, but that is a bit of a stretch.

  19. C'Tair on Ix invents the "cross-dimensional Rogo transceiver" communication device. Strangely enough, it is never heard from again in the later books by Frank Herbert.
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby dunaddict » 10 Jul 2009 12:14

House Harkonnen

  1. Jessica is made Duke Leto's concubine and Dr. Yueh joins the Atreides before Paul's death.
    However, more than fifteen years later, in DUNE, Jessica says:
    Jessica wrote:We've known each other six years

    The official explanation:
    There is more to the story (fifteen years between HOUSE CORRINO and DUNE), and we will fill in the answers in a planned later volume. While Jessica met Yueh briefly when he was tending Rhombur, the doctor did not come to be a part of the Atreides household, and close to Jessica -- until six years before DUNE.


  2. Gurney and Liet-Kynes meet and become good friends in HOUSE HARKONNEN. Yet when they meet again in DUNE they don't recognize each other at all.
    The authors try to explain this on the official website:
    More than fifteen years have passed. Gurney met Liet then on a different planet, when he was using a false name, and his appearance was different. It¹s not surprising he would not recognize Dr. Kynes.


  3. Jessica is almost forced on Duke Leto. But In DUNE, we read that the Duke actually sent buyers to purchase her:
    Not since the day when the Duke's buyers had taken her from the school had she felt this frightened and unsure of herself.

    And in Children of Dune:
    Not since those terrifying days before the Duke's buyers came for her, not since then had she felt such trembling uncertainty about her next moments.

    On the official dunenovels website, the authors offered the following explanation:
    The Leto/Jessica meeting scene in HOUSE HARKONNEN was actually written by Frank Herbert himself and found in his notes. The events shown in HOUSE HARKONNEN are consistent with the original notes.

    This is of course not a real explanation. Consistent with the original notes is still not consistent with the original books. This meeting scene is nothing more than a deleted scene that was not included in the story for a reason.

  4. The Bene Gesserit suddenly have telepathic powers: they can make themselves invisible:
    Rustling like bats, hundreds of Sisters filled the dining hall, amused to watch the Baron's antics, dodging him as if it were a game of invisible tag. Some crouched under tables; Jessica and Mohiam pressed against the wall. All the women were in silent breathing mode, concentrating on the illusion. No one spoke. They were in plain sight, but the befuddled Harkonnens could neither see nor sense them. The Baron saw only what the Bene Gesserit wanted him to see.
    In preparation for the mass hypnosis that now smothered the Baron and his men, Sister Cristane had allowed herself to be visible to them, so she could lead them into the web. But gradually the guide had faded from view as the Sisters concentrated, focusing their efforts on these pliable victims.

    For some reason, in all the original DUNE novels, they never do this again.

  5. Kynes tells a smuggler "I am Liet-Kynes, son of Pardot Kynes". The authors also claim that Liet was his sietch name. In that case it should be kept secret from outsiders.

  6. In HOUSE HARKONNEN, Gurney escapes the Harkonnens on his own. However, in DUNE, Gurney says this of Duke Leto:
    the man who rescued me from a Harkonnen slave pit, gave me freedom, life, and honor


  7. According to HOUSE HARKONNEN, the first time Duncan kills someone is when he stabs Trin Kronos (a Moritani) in the back with his sword to save his friend Resser. This takes place on planet Ginaz. In DUNE, Duncan claimes to have first killed on Grumman:
    “My sword was firs’ blooded on Grumman. Killed a Harkon….Harkon….killed ‘im f’r the duke.”

    The official "explanation" was later given in PAUL OF DUNE: Apparently, Duncan meant that particular sword was first blooded on Grumman.

  8. Dr. Yueh is described as a greedy man in this book. Although this quote seems to indicate otherwise in DUNE:
    Does greed touch even you, Wellington?


  9. In DUNE "House Ginaz" is obviously a House in the Landsraad, in this book it's a planet run by a school of swordsmen and no particularly family seems to be in charge.
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby dunaddict » 10 Jul 2009 12:15

House Corrino

  1. It’s revealed in this book that Axolotl tanks are impregnated females; yet tanks are a complete mystery to everyone until much later in the series (in fact, thousands of years later).

  2. How is it that the Bene Tleilax make “artificial spice” (amal), but then completely lose this capability until thousands of years later in Heretics—in which they are making actual Melange? Furthermore, how do you produce something “artificial” or “synthetic” in a womb? The whole point of using a womb is to utilize the natural cellular meioses/mitosis that a womb normally facilitates to produce offspring through gametes.

  3. This isn’t an inconsistency per se, but it’s questionable that the Guild would have allowed the transport of Moritani's and Rabban's attack force to Caladan, while supporting the Atreides liberation of Ix from the BT.

  4. In this book, Yueh tells Rhombur about his wife Wanna:
    A long time ago, my wife Wanna was seriously injured in an industrial accident. I found a specialist in artificial human control functions-very primitive compared with what you have, Prince. He replaced Wanna's hips, spleen, and uterus with synthetic parts, but she could never have children. We had planned to wait… but we waited too long. Of course Wanna is beyond childbearing age now,

    However, in Dune Yueh thinks to himself:
    "Why did Wanna never give me children? he asked himself. I know as a doctor there was no physical reason against it. Was there some Bene Gesserit reason?"

    The explanation on the official site is:
    Yueh later learns that Wandra's injury did not, in fact, make her incapable of bearing children -- but the Sisterhood had commanded her not to conceive.

    Yueh must be a very incompetent doctor?

  5. From the opening paragraph of DUNE on Paul Atreides:
    "Do not be deceived by the fact that he was born on Caladan and lived his first fifteen years there."

    and later:
    The Duke looked at him. "This will be your first time off planet," he said.

    and in DUNE MESSIAH:
    Despite the special reverence held for Caladan as the place of Paul's birth [...]

    and in the same book Paul thinks to himself:
    Water flowing in the desert! He recalled another kind of water flowing in a river of his birthworld, Caladan.

    There is no reason why Paul would think of some place other than Caladan as his birthworld.

    Yet, in HOUSE CORRINO, Paul is born on Kaitain! The official explanation on the dunenovels site:
    Paul was born on Kaitain, but his naming ceremony was on Caladan. He was taken to Caladan very soon after his birth and this has always been considered his birthplace.

    Considering the passages mentioned above, this seems highly unlikely.

  6. The Kwisatz Haderach breeding program is said to go back 10,000 years. According to Dune it has gone on for 90 generations. That would work out to 111 years per generation (the traditional figure is 20 [but this could be explained by the geriatric use of spice])

  7. Piter deVries in DUNE:
    "That's not my question," the Baron said. "You'll recall that you predicted
    the Bene Gesserit witch would bear a daughter to the Duke. You were wrong, eh,
    Mentat?"
    "I'm not often wrong, Baron," Piter said, and for the first time there was
    fear in his voice.

    In HOUSE ATREIDES Piter deVries dies soon after Paul is born:
    The swift kick snapped the Mentat's neck like dry kindling. Piter de Vries fell dead to the floor
    "Send a message to the Tleilaxu," [the Baron] growled. "Have them rush me another Mentat."

    New gholas do not recall things from previous gholas' lives. The Piter in DUNE must therefore be the same ghola that made the wrong prediction
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby dunaddict » 10 Jul 2009 12:16

The Butlerian Jihad

  1. The Sorceresses of Rossak have telekinetic powers. These sorceresses later became the Bene Gesserit.
    The Bene Gesserits in the origal DUNE novels, 10000 years later, never give any indication that they possess these 'magical powers'. Did they forget how to do all of that? With their Other Memory, this is impossible. The DUNE Appendix (Appendix II, Space Travel) speaks of
    a time of sorceresses whose powers were real
    but nowhere does it say these were 'magical' powers.

  2. From one of the epigraphs in HOUSE ATREIDES:
    "Tio Holtzman was one of the most productive Ixian inventors on record. He often went on creative binges, locking himself up for months on end so that he could work without interruption. Sometimes upon emerging he required hospitalization, and there were constant concerns over his sanity and well-being. Holtzman died young -- barely past thirty Standard Years -- but the results of his efforts changed the galaxy forever.
    -Biographical Capsules, an Imperial filmbook"

    In this book:
    "A clean-shaven man with shoulder-length gray hair, Holtzman appeared to be in his late middle years. His hands and fingernails were clean, his clothing impeccable and ornamented with stylish designs and badges."


  3. Ecaz — Unallied Planet. Not conquered by the machines. Earth however, is enslaved by the Titans.
    But in DUNE (Terminology of the empire) we read:
    ECAZ: fourth planet of Alpha Centauri B; the sculptors' paradise, so called because it is the home of fogwood, the plant growth capable of being shaped in situ solely by the power of human thought.

    The star Alpha Centauri B is our Sun's galactic neighbour, only 4.2 lightyears away. Why did the machines conquer Earth, but not the star-system right next to it?
    source

  4. In THE BUTLERIAN JIHAD, when Holtzman and Norma are testing the las-gun/shield interaction for the first time, only the shield generator explodes. In previous books both las-gun and shield were destroyed. Explanation from the official site:
    Norma herself has certain untapped powers of prescient manipulation -- she's not even aware of them yet in THE BUTLERIAN JIHAD. In all other instances, lasgun and shield both explode.

    Unfortunately, this does not explain how prescience prevents a lasgun/shield-explosion.
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby dunaddict » 10 Jul 2009 12:17

The Machine Crusade
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby dunaddict » 10 Jul 2009 12:17

The Battle of Corrin

  1. According to DUNE (Terminology of the Empire), the "thinking machines" were destroyed in the Butlerian Jihad:
    BENE GESSERIT: the ancient school of mental and physical training established primarily for female students after the Butlerian Jihad destroyed the so-called "thinking machines" and robots.


    The Butlerian Jihad ends in B.G. 108. But in this book the last machines are not destroyed until the Battle of Corrin in 88 B.G, twenty years later.

    What probably happened: The authors told us in HOUSE ATREIDES that the Battle of Corrin was part of The Butlerian Jihad against the machines. After they wrote the novel, they found out the Battle of Corrin was actually not part of the Butlerian Jihad. Their solution: B.G. 108 was just the "official end of the Jihad", but the "real" defeat of the machines was in B.G. 88, during the Battle of Corrin.
    The only problem...the authors missed or ignored the Terminology of the Empire-entry mentioned above, that proves the the machines were defeated in the Butlerian Jihad.

  2. According to DUNE (Terminology of the Empire) The Battle of Corrin was:
    The battle fought near Sigma Draconis in the year 88 B.G.

    In THE BUTLERIAN JIHAD, we learn:
    he and his fellow Titans reached Corrin after an interstellar voyage of nearly two months. ... The cymek moved out onto the paved boulevards under the enormous baleful eye of the red giant.

    But Sigma Draconis is not a red giant, it is an orange dwarf. It is unlikely that this star will become a red giant in just a few thousand years, just in time for the Butlerian Jihad... source
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby dunaddict » 10 Jul 2009 12:18

The Road to Dune (the three Legends of Dune short stories)
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby dunaddict » 10 Jul 2009 12:19

Hunters of Dune

  1. Sheeana and Duncan forgot all about about Miles' super speed ability.


  2. Sheeana has Serena Butler in her Other Memory. This is not possible, because Serena's had no descendants. Her only baby was killed.

  3. Bellonda is described as a fat woman. At the end of CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE however, she was starting to lose weight.

  4. The Baron ghola has Alia in his Other Memory. Is he the kwisatz haderach now? And if he is, why does he have ancestral memory of one of his descendants?

  5. The infinite scattering is surrounded by the machines

  6. In CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE, Daniel and Marty are clearly facedancers. Now they are the robots Erasmus and Omnius.
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby dunaddict » 10 Jul 2009 12:20

Sandworms of Dune

  1. A Navigator floating on gas?
    When the air pressure was no longer sufficient to buoy him, the Navigator collapsed to the floor of his tank. Weakly, he raised his webbed hands and demanded answers in a voice that was little more than a gasp. The Guildsman and his companions offered no explanations.

    It’s not air pressure that buoys the navigators. They float because there is no artificial gravity in their chambers, and on a planet their mobile chambers have suspensor fields to keep them floating.

  2. Worms creating melange?
    Liet added, "Already, small worms in the desert belt have created priceless amounts of
    melange just waiting to be mined.

    Worms do not create the spice. Sandtrout create the spice in spice blows.

  3. Miles Teg in CHAPTERHOUSE: DUNE:
    "The Sisters will now imagine I'm at least a potential Kwisatz Haderach. Another Muad'Dib. Bullcrap! As you're so fond of saying, Duncan. Neither of us would risk that. We know what he created and we're not stupid!"

    Duncan in this book:
    "Truly, I am the Kwisatz Haderach!" He wished Miles Teg could have been there with him.


  4. Obliterators changing the magnetic field?
    Waff knew exactly where he was going. Before coming to Rakis, he had dug up the old charts, and because the Honored Matres' Obliterators had altered even the planetary magnetic field, he had carefully recalibrated his maps from orbit.

    Obliterators create a fiery blast of immense heat. How does that change the magnetic field of a planet? A magnetic field is generated by the rotating core in the centre of a planet. It doesn't make any sense.
    And what does the polarity of the magnetic field have to do with a map of the planet? At worst your compass might point in the wrong direction, but the north and south poles are still pointing in the original directions relative to the solar plane.

  5. Bene Gesserits can't make up their mind:
    No education, training, or prescience can show us the secret abilities we
    contain within ourselves. We can only pray those special talents are available in
    our time of greatest need.
    - The Bene Gesserit Acolytes' Handbook

    No education? pray? In a Bene Gesserit handbook? That’s the complete opposite of Bene Gesserit philosophy! From DUNE (Terminology of the empire):
    BENE GESSERIT: the ancient school of mental and physical training established
    primarily for female students

    From DUNE (Appendix II - The religion of Dune):
    The Bene Gesserit, who privately denied they were a religious order


  6. In this book seven 40 meter long worms merge:
    The fleshy rings of the separate sandworms began to merge and metamorphose into a
    much larger form. The differentiation among the creatures became less distinct; the rings
    united, joining into one incredible sandworm: a behemoth greater even than the largest
    monsters from legendary Dune
    .

    In DUNE Paul summons a worm:
    Presently he saw the faraway outline of the creature's track against the dawnlight and
    realized he had never before seen a maker this large, never heard of one this
    size. It appeared to be more than half a league long, and the rise of the
    sandwave at its cresting head was like the approach of a mountain.

    Half a league is about 2500 meters. Seven 40 meter long worms can not transform into a 2500 meter worm.

  7. In this book:
    Administrator Gorus groaned. "Will they never stop?"
    "No." Murbella scowled at him for forcing her to state the obvious. "They are thinking
    machines."

    Leto II in GEOD:
    Machines always fail... given time.


  8. This book says Leto II was corrupted and wrong about The Golden Path. Nothing in the last three orginal Dune books indicates that Leto II was corrupted or wrong about anything.

    But power had eventually corrupted Leto II. How, then, could Duncan handle this even greater burden?

    When did power corrupt Leto II? He held true to the Golden Path even though he knew it meant his death. No significant thing he ever did was from corruption, just part of the necessary plan.

    Leto II's vision of the Golden Path had fragmented humanity so that they no longer followed a single charismatic leader, and now Murbella had to repair that damage. Diversity might once have been a path to survival, but unless the numerous worlds and armies could stand together against the far greater foe, they would all perish.

    Now the golden path is a mistake? And why would following a single charismatic leader suddenly be OK again?

    Leto II in SANDWORMS wrote:My father refused to make the choice I did - refused to pay
    the price in blood for the Golden Path, but I thought I knew better.
    Ah, how arrogant we can be in our youth!”

    Yes, everything the god emperor did was the wrong thing to do.

    When Leto II envisioned his Golden Path, he foresaw the direction that
    humankind should tale, but he had blind spots. He failed to see that he was not the
    ultimate Kwisatz Haderach.
    - Bene Gesserit fact-finding commission

    He never called himself the ultimate Kwisatz Haderach
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby dunaddict » 10 Jul 2009 12:21

Paul of Dune

  1. In this book young Paul travels to both Ecaz (twice) and Grumman. However, three or four years later, in DUNE:
    The Duke looked at him. "This will be your first time off planet," he said.

    The "explanation" for this error is given later on when Irulan asks Paul about the book "The Life of Muad'Dib":
    “You told me you had never left Caladan before your House moved to Arrakis. Whole parts of your youth have been left out.

    “Painful parts.” He frowned at her. “But, more importantly, irrelevant parts. We’ve streamlined the story for mass consumption, just as when you wrote that I was born on Caladan and not Kaitain. It sounds better that way, doesn’t it?”

    The problem: in DUNE, the "first time off planet" quote is in the main body of the text, not in the "Life of Muad'Dib" epigraphs. This means the entire original DUNE novel must now be considered propaganda. That is of course ridiculous.

  2. In HUNTERS OF DUNE:
    "Later, during Muad'Dib's jihad, an exiled Hasimir Fenring—himself a failed Kwisatz Haderach-acquired the dagger. In a vile plot, he stabbed Muad'Dib deeply in the back. Some say that he died that day from the wound, but that Heaven sent him back among the living, for his work was not yet done. In a miracle he returned to us."

    In this book:
    In that instant, Count Fenring moved like a coiled viper, his muscles trained and retrained with years of practice as the Emperor's most reliable assassin. Fenring yanked the Emperor's dagger out of Marie's body and drove the blade deep into Paul's chest.
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby dunaddict » 10 Jul 2009 12:21

Winds of Dune

  1. In WINDS OF DUNE Alia, thinking back on Paul's life, remembers him running away with the Jongleurs. And Duncan muses in an epigraph about how he protected Paul on Caladan and Grumman.

    In DUNE:
    The Duke looked at him. "This will be your first time off planet," he said.

    Paul never left Caladan before the move to Arrakis.

  2. in WINDS OF DUNE:
    At a session of her Regent's Council, by unilateral decree, Alia amended the long-standing rules of the Great Convention that applied to atomics. Previously, Great Houses had been permitted to keep their warheads, which could be used only under strictly defined defensive circumstances. Henceforth, as a temporary emergency measure, no one except the Imperial Regent herself could possess such weaponry.

    But how to pry the dangerous warheads from entrenched Landsraad families? To begin with, she set up an exchange program, under which noble houses could trade their family atomics for large rewards of spice, voting shares in CHOAM, or other perquisites. In the weeks following the Regent's decree, many Great Houses dutifully surrendered their atomics, hungry for cash and spice after the hardships of the Jihad. Atomics hadn't been openly used in warfare against rival families in millennia anyway.

    In GOD EMPEROR OF DUNE:
    ...Idaho said. "I presume the Great Convention against atomics is still in force and working well?"

    "Working even better since we searched out all of the Family atomics and removed them to a safe place," Leto said.


    The families didn't give their atomics to Alia. Leto was responsible for removing all of the Family atomics, years later.

  3. In WINDS OF DUNE Stilgar rides a Worm:
    When he was in place on top of the head, he cranked the next spreader open wider and took up his goad. He jabbed the worm, yelled in an attempt to turn it. "Haiiii-yoh!" He had no reason to believe this beast had ever been ridden before, had ever heard a steersman's call. The sandworm fought back like a nightmare bull, intent on him rather than on the cacophony of tempting noises at the outskirts of the city.

    in DUNE:
    "Ach, haiiiii-yoh!" he shouted in the traditional call. The left-side
    steersman opened a ring segment there.
    In a majestic circle, the maker turned to protect its opened segment. Full
    around it came and when it was headed back to the south, Paul shouted: "Geyrat!"
    The steersman released his hook. The maker lined out in a straight course.


    The steersmen didn't call to the worms, the worms weren't domesticated and didn't understand voice commands. The steersmen called to the other Fremen.

  4. Duncan and Gurney are trying to find Bronso because Gurney and Jessica had seen Wayku stewards passing out Bronso's tracts on a Heighliner. The two decide to look for the Wayku who helped them find Paul and Bronso years earlier. They board a Heighliner and demand to see some documentation:

    An hour went by, then two, then three, while Gurney waited patiently. Finally, Duncan rose behind the pile of documents on the table. His ghola face held a satisfied smile, though his metal eyes were unreadable. "I've found him, Gurney. I know which ship carries Ennzyn. We will command the Navigator to divert this vessel so that we may intercept it."
    ...
    [The next next section, about seven paragraphs later]

    The heighliner carrying Ennzyn was forcibly delayed in orbit above Balut, its next stop, and the Guild offered no explanations to the numerous passengers aboard. As soon as the second Guildship arrived, Duncan and Gurney shuttled across, aided by Guild security.


    If the Guildship Duncan and Gurney are on is diverted to intercept the one Ennzyn is on, wouldn't theirs be the first ship to reach his? So how would they know at Balut to delay Ennzyn's ship BEFORE Duncan & Gurney's arrived? Though none is mentioned explicitly, you would have to assume some sort of instantaneous communication device or method.

    In DUNE, there is no such method.

  5. Facedancers on Wallach IX:

    Now, after being on the run for years, he had managed to slip a few Face Dancer infiltrators onto Wallach IX, if only briefly, and his spies had discovered the information he needed to know, where his mother was, and the security arrangements surrounding her.

    All that remained was to implement a plan. The four Sisters and the other two men with him were Face Dancers. His Face Dancers.

    In the original DUNE books, Bene Gesserit are able to detect a facedancer immediately.

  6. In WINDS OF DUNE:
    The rugged red-walled canyon opened into a sheltered valley, far from prison settlements or Shaddam's domed city. On schedule, the Tleilaxu corpse ship settled on the hard-packed ground, stirring a haze of rusty grit with a roar of suspensor engines.

    There is nothing in DUNE that indicates suspensors operate by displacing air (or anything else).

  7. In WINDS OF DUNE navigator Edric seems to float on the gas in his tank:
    The captive Steersman Edric had wielded the power of the Spacing Guild and carried the political weight of an appointed ambassador, but his safety depended on civilized restraints that meant nothing to Stilgar. Smashing the tank had been simple. When the spice gas drained away and the Steersman flopped about like a spindly aquatic creature cast up on a hostile shore, Stilgar had gripped the mutant's rubbery flesh and snapped the cartilaginous neck. He had taken no great pleasure in it.

    But it's suspensors that support the Navigators in their tanks, not the gas.
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Schu » 10 Jul 2009 18:42

@ House Corrino & anything else with young Paul being anywhere other than Caladan:

In Dune, Leto says that this is Paul's first time off planet when they travel to Dune/Arrakis. This is later explained away as a doctoring of history by Irulan, as instructed by Paul, thereby de-canonising the Original novels.

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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Mandy » 10 Jul 2009 20:39

Schu wrote:@ House Corrino & anything else with young Paul being anywhere other than Caladan:

In Dune, Leto says that this is Paul's first time off planet when they travel to Dune/Arrakis. This is later explained away as a doctoring of history by Irulan, as instructed by Paul, thereby de-canonising the Original novels.


Paul also calls Caladan his birth world in Messiah, I just read that bit this morning. He was thinking it, not saying it.. don't see why he'd need to lie about his planet of birth in his thoughts.
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Schu » 12 Jul 2009 00:07

Mandy wrote:
Schu wrote:@ House Corrino & anything else with young Paul being anywhere other than Caladan:

In Dune, Leto says that this is Paul's first time off planet when they travel to Dune/Arrakis. This is later explained away as a doctoring of history by Irulan, as instructed by Paul, thereby de-canonising the Original novels.


Paul also calls Caladan his birth world in Messiah, I just read that bit this morning. He was thinking it, not saying it.. don't see why he'd need to lie about his planet of birth in his thoughts.


Because they're all just flawed histories, and Irulan could dictate Paul's thoughts (and wanted to portray herself as a flawed whiney illogical bitch because she was a masochist or something. :puke:

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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Mandy » 12 Jul 2009 17:16

:lol: I know! I was thinking the same thing when I read Mohiam's thoughts about Irulan.

I wish all history books were written like novels!
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Leto » 17 Aug 2009 07:04

dunaddict wrote:Paul of Dune

[*]In HUNTERS OF DUNE:
"Later, during Muad'Dib's jihad, an exiled Hasimir Fenring—himself a failed Kwisatz Haderach-acquired the dagger. In a vile plot, he stabbed Muad'Dib deeply in the back. Some say that he died that day from the wound, but that Heaven sent him back among the living, for his work was not yet done. In a miracle he returned to us."

In this book:
In that instant, Count Fenring moved like a coiled viper, his muscles trained and retrained with years of practice as the Emperor's most reliable assassin. Fenring yanked the Emperor's dagger out of Marie's body and drove the blade deep into Paul's chest.
[/list]


waouh!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

They succeeded contradicting themselves (on something never mentioned in the FH's Chronicles)!!!

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Another point regarding House Vernius (Ix friends of Leto) : they totally disappeared in th Chronicles (especially when House Atreides leaves to Dune)!! And so much more inconstencies....
I did not know there were "official" explanations of such things (how did they explained the death of the Shaddam's wife?).
'cause in Dune, she's alive .... and, if it's not mentionned, I'm sure that Peter will kill the Empress, just for a kid... :shhh:
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Redstar » 17 Aug 2009 08:13

Eh. I'd look for something that can't be so easily explained away.

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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Freakzilla » 17 Aug 2009 08:51

Leto wrote:I did not know there were "official" explanations of such things (how did they explained the death of the Shaddam's wife?).
'cause in Dune, she's alive .... and, if it's not mentionned, I'm sure that Peter will kill the Empress, just for a kid... :shhh:


Ghola. Next... :P
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 17 Aug 2009 11:24

They'll say that's a record keeping error, the first quote is from some kind of history.
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby SandRider » 17 Aug 2009 15:13

Redstar wrote:Eh. I'd look for something that can't be so easily explained away.


hmmm.
The only explanation I can see is that Keith is careless,
doesn't read over his dictation, and the editors @Tor
are idiots.

I think it's a great example of the careless way Keith "writes" ...
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Redstar » 17 Aug 2009 19:12

SandRider wrote:
Redstar wrote:Eh. I'd look for something that can't be so easily explained away.


hmmm.
The only explanation I can see is that Keith is careless,
doesn't read over his dictation, and the editors @Tor
are idiots.

I think it's a great example of the careless way Keith "writes" ...

As above, I was thinking altered history. Fenring stabbed Paul in the chest, but to make him seem more cowardly they made it in the back for propaganda which then made it into the history books.

If I can come up with that, so can he.

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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Hunchback Jack » 17 Aug 2009 22:01

Well, he'll be able to come up with it *now*. :doh:

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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby SandChigger » 17 Aug 2009 22:22

:lol:

Nah, that's the kind of little detail (that could be explained by historical distortion) that KJA would throw in intentionally in hopes we'd chase after it and our own tails. ;)
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Redstar » 18 Aug 2009 02:16

I like KJA's work. It inspires me to write better. I think we should all give him big thanks for his mighty contribution to literature.


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