"New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

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SadisticCynic
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby SadisticCynic » 25 Aug 2009 22:59

Freakzilla wrote:
Redstar wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I guess it was his hair that made me think he was black. Allthough I never really figured out what karukul hair was.

That's interesting. I never would have thought him black, since my idea of curly was more the typical rendition of curly hair... If FH had said "kinky hair" I might have gotten the same mental image as you, but the goat-hair comparison does seem to fit both ways.

I guess I'm one of those "white unless stated otherwise" kinda readers, which is unfortunate. Heinlein had a lot of dark-skinned or black characters that he would wait until a quarter or even half-way through the book to surprise the reader and their preconceived notions of "hero".


I don't think it's a mental image I had when I first read Dune (and the pale skin reference from HoD kinda kills it anyway) but throughout the series race (skin color) seems to be totally random. Duke Leto was olive skinned, however Leto II's face is described as pink. Malky and Hwi are certainly black. There are blonde Fremen, there are olive skinned Fremen.

After reading this thread I'm probably always going to think of Christopher Walken as Duncan. :P


I remember Hwi being black, but Malky? I always assumed he was white i.e. complete opposite to Hwi. I think it is mentioned that Hwi is female for this reason and so I always assumed the same with skin colour. Unless there is a quote saying Malky is black, in which case: :oops:
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Slugger » 25 Aug 2009 23:24

SadisticCynic wrote:I remember Hwi being black, but Malky? I always assumed he was white i.e. complete opposite to Hwi. I think it is mentioned that Hwi is female for this reason and so I always assumed the same with skin colour. Unless there is a quote saying Malky is black, in which case: :oops:


His first view of Hwi Noree revealed a remarkable likeness to her Uncle Malky,
but her grave movements and the calmness of her stride were equally remarkable
in their difference from Malky. She did have that dark skin, though, the oval
face with its regular features. Placid brown eyes stared back at Leto. And
where Malky's hair had been gray, hers was a luminous brown.

Page 109 of my PDF.

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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby SadisticCynic » 25 Aug 2009 23:30

:oops:
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Aug 2009 23:31

:cylon101:

*sigh*

Hwi was the genetic opposite of Malky, designed to entice The God Emperor.

Don't make me whip out my GEoD on you...

His first view of Hwi Noree revealed a remarkable likeness to her Uncle Malky,
but her grave movements and the calmness of her stride were equally remarkable
in their difference from Malky. She did have that dark skin, though, the oval
face with its regular features. Placid brown eyes stared back at Leto. And
where Malky's hair had been gray, hers was a luminous brown. Hwi Noree radiated
an inner peace which Leto sensed spreading its influence around her as she
approached. She stopped ten paces away, below him. There was a classical balance
about her, something not accidental.
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Aug 2009 23:31

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>

Bows to Slugger.

Nice hit, man.
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Aug 2009 23:33

DON'T EVER DOUBT ME AGAIN! :lol:
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 26 Aug 2009 11:22

TheDukester wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:But isn't the fact that he isn't white fairly obvious?

Not really. He's "Johnny" on every page of the book but that last ... all of the characters speak a bland sort of American English until Johnny's Tagalog quote on the last page ... it's little stuff like that that probably had (has) the average Amercian reader just sort of assuming he's a WASP.

Actually, what happens is that you reach the end of the book and realize that Heinlein really hasn't described Rico much at all. Other characters, yes (Zim is big; Carl is smart, etc.), but you get to the end of Troopers without knowing a lot about Rico's physical qualities (other than he's generally tough enough to thrive at boot camp, etc.).


Really? I guess my memory has lost that snippit of info, I thought he was called Rico at several points. Oops.
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Zak » 18 Nov 2009 17:25

Dosen't Dune Messiah mentionthat Duncan has epacanthic folds? That should mean he's Asian or at least non-white. Wiki says it's a sign of retardation in white folk.

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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Redstar » 18 Nov 2009 19:22

That trait isn't general to "Asians". Please realize that Asia is a pretty large area, so there's a lot of places and a lot of people. Looks vary.

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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Freakzilla » 18 Nov 2009 19:23

The epicanthic fold can occur among people of North Asian, Central Asian, East Asian and Southeast Asian descent, such as the Mongols, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Vietnamese, Kazakhs, Hazaras, and some other Asian ethnic groups like Burmese, Bangladeshis, Filipinos, Cambodians, Malays, Thais, Bhutanese, northern Nepalis, Tibetans, Ladakhis, and the inhabitants of North Eastern India (for example, the Mizo and the Garo), among others. Mixed race people of partially Asian descent, such as Eurasians and Afro-Asians may inherit epicanthic folds.

Epicanthic folds are also common among Native Americans and Inuit. They can also be found inherited among some Oceanic peoples including Tongans, Samoans, Micronesians and Hawaiians.

Some African ethnic groups also have epicanthic folds; these include the Khoisans (Capoids) in Africa and certain groups from southern Sudan such as the Dinka and the Nuer.

Epicanthic folds are also found in a minority of Europeans having no known Asian background, especially in eastern Europe and across northern Europe in areas such as Scandinavia.
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Hunchback Jack » 18 Nov 2009 22:25

Okay, so Duncan was asian. Cool.

;)

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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Freakzilla » 19 Nov 2009 07:41

Hunchback Jack wrote:Okay, so Duncan was asian. Cool.

;)

HBJ



Or maybe African... :P
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Zak » 19 Nov 2009 07:55

That trait isn't general to "Asians". Please realize that Asia is a pretty large area, so there's a lot of places and a lot of people. Looks vary.


I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean. The vast majority of people with epacanthic folds are Asian. I'd never even actually learned the word in English until I read Dune; that's why it stuck in my mind. In Mandarin we always just said "Shuang Yan Pi" which means "Double eye skin." I am well aware that only certain ethnic groups have them and I even googled it to see if others did. Freak's post below is the first I've heard about it being a normal thing in Scandinavians. I was aware that pacific islander groups had them, so I added the "non-white" part. Since that's what we were talking about in the first place no? PC racial distributions in Dune?

Freakzilla wrote:The epicanthic fold can occur among people of North Asian, Central Asian, East Asian and Southeast Asian descent, such as the Mongols, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Vietnamese, Kazakhs, Hazaras, and some other Asian ethnic groups like Burmese, Bangladeshis, Filipinos, Cambodians, Malays, Thais, Bhutanese, northern Nepalis, Tibetans, Ladakhis, and the inhabitants of North Eastern India (for example, the Mizo and the Garo), among others. Mixed race people of partially Asian descent, such as Eurasians and Afro-Asians may inherit epicanthic folds.

Epicanthic folds are also common among Native Americans and Inuit. They can also be found inherited among some Oceanic peoples including Tongans, Samoans, Micronesians and Hawaiians.

Some African ethnic groups also have epicanthic folds; these include the Khoisans (Capoids) in Africa and certain groups from southern Sudan such as the Dinka and the Nuer.

Epicanthic folds are also found in a minority of Europeans having no known Asian background, especially in eastern Europe and across northern Europe in areas such as Scandinavia.


Can you link me to something about the folds in Eastern Europeans and Scandinavians? I looked around for it but couldn't find much.

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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Redstar » 19 Nov 2009 08:03

Zak wrote:
Redstar wrote:That trait isn't general to "Asians". Please realize that Asia is a pretty large area, so there's a lot of places and a lot of people. Looks vary.

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean. The vast majority of people with epacanthic folds are Asian. I'd never even actually learned the word in English until I read Dune; that's why it stuck in my mind. In Mandarin we always just said "Shuang Yan Pi" which means "Double eye skin." I am well aware that only certain ethnic groups have them and I even googled it to see if others did. Freak's post below is the first I've heard about it being a normal thing in Scandinavians. I was aware that pacific islander groups had them, so I added the "non-white" part. Since that's what we were talking about in the first place no? PC racial distributions in Dune?

There's plenty of Asian ethnic groups that don't have epicanthic folds, as well as some non-Asian ethnic groups that do have them. My point is that Duncan isn't automatically Asian just because he has them, especially considering he was born on a different planet after 10,000+ years of human evolution.

(For the longest time I had no idea what people were talking about when they mentioned these folds... I was talking to a Filipino friend of mine, and she told me about how she has them, and I had to look up a side-by-side comparison to know just what she was talking about. I never really noticed there was a difference)

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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Freakzilla » 19 Nov 2009 08:41

Zak wrote:
That trait isn't general to "Asians". Please realize that Asia is a pretty large area, so there's a lot of places and a lot of people. Looks vary.


I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean. The vast majority of people with epacanthic folds are Asian. I'd never even actually learned the word in English until I read Dune; that's why it stuck in my mind. In Mandarin we always just said "Shuang Yan Pi" which means "Double eye skin." I am well aware that only certain ethnic groups have them and I even googled it to see if others did. Freak's post below is the first I've heard about it being a normal thing in Scandinavians. I was aware that pacific islander groups had them, so I added the "non-white" part. Since that's what we were talking about in the first place no? PC racial distributions in Dune?

Freakzilla wrote:The epicanthic fold can occur among people of North Asian, Central Asian, East Asian and Southeast Asian descent, such as the Mongols, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Vietnamese, Kazakhs, Hazaras, and some other Asian ethnic groups like Burmese, Bangladeshis, Filipinos, Cambodians, Malays, Thais, Bhutanese, northern Nepalis, Tibetans, Ladakhis, and the inhabitants of North Eastern India (for example, the Mizo and the Garo), among others. Mixed race people of partially Asian descent, such as Eurasians and Afro-Asians may inherit epicanthic folds.

Epicanthic folds are also common among Native Americans and Inuit. They can also be found inherited among some Oceanic peoples including Tongans, Samoans, Micronesians and Hawaiians.

Some African ethnic groups also have epicanthic folds; these include the Khoisans (Capoids) in Africa and certain groups from southern Sudan such as the Dinka and the Nuer.

Epicanthic folds are also found in a minority of Europeans having no known Asian background, especially in eastern Europe and across northern Europe in areas such as Scandinavia.


Can you link me to something about the folds in Eastern Europeans and Scandinavians? I looked around for it but couldn't find much.


I copied that from Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicanthic_fold
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Zak » 19 Nov 2009 09:01

Ah ok thanks. I read that too. Unfortunately the only one of the sources for that page mentions it, and only in passing. The others say that it's only found in some Asian groups.

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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Zak » 20 Nov 2009 20:22

There's plenty of Asian ethnic groups that don't have epicanthic folds, as well as some non-Asian ethnic groups that do have them. My point is that Duncan isn't automatically Asian just because he has them, especially considering he was born on a different planet after 10,000+ years of human evolution.



Oh absolutely. I'm sorry if I came off as meaning that all Asian people have epicanthic folds. I was almost certain that all people with the trait are non-white, I was only aware of one exception so I noted it. So I included this statement, but it wasn't meant to be reversible. (I.e. "All people with epicanthic folds are non-white" DOES NOT equal: "all non-white people have epicanthic folds".) I was just pointing out that Frank Herbert had included something that could be a clue to what Duncan looks like. Specifically I was pointing out that someone who has epicanthic folds probably isn't white by modern demographic distributions, and definitely isn't the kind of generic white hero we might expect from a book written in 1965 by an American author.

I thought it was actually a pretty cool detail that I only picked up after a detail oriented re-reading of Dune.

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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Freakzilla » 20 Nov 2009 22:02

Vulcans have 'em, too. :D
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby Frybread » 28 Dec 2009 11:37

Zak wrote:Dosen't Dune Messiah mentionthat Duncan has epacanthic folds? That should mean he's Asian or at least non-white. Wiki says it's a sign of retardation in white folk.


I think by 21,267 A.D. (or whenever Dune is supposed to take place) everybody in the Empire would be mixed-race and there would be no pure Asians or Europeans or whatever. Duncan's epicanthic folds are more cosmetic than an indicator of his being Asian.

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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby inhuien » 29 Dec 2009 14:33

Frybread wrote:
Zak wrote:Dosen't Dune Messiah mentionthat Duncan has epacanthic folds? That should mean he's Asian or at least non-white. Wiki says it's a sign of retardation in white folk.


I think by 21,267 A.D. (or whenever Dune is supposed to take place) everybody in the Empire would be mixed-race and there would be no pure Asians or Europeans or whatever. Duncan's epicanthic folds are more cosmetic than an indicator of his being Asian.

Really, perhaps you should go and tell that to the Jews, of course there will always be enclaves of ethnic "purity".

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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 29 Dec 2009 15:25

20K to 30K Years should be plenty of time for new (visually identifiable) ethnic groups to crop up anyways, especially with a minimum of travel between planets taking place. It wouldn't be very difficult for someone to keep their group seperate from others.
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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby reverendmotherQ. » 20 Mar 2010 12:52

A Thing of Eternity wrote:20K to 30K Years should be plenty of time for new (visually identifiable) ethnic groups to crop up anyways, especially with a minimum of travel between planets taking place. It wouldn't be very difficult for someone to keep their group seperate from others.

Just look at modern examples. Even in cities and with the advent of instant communication, groups still cluster together according to common identities. All they need is an offf shoot into a new solar system to mix things up.

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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby A Little Galach » 02 Apr 2010 09:47

Hello all. First post and I have to say that this board and this forum in particular has made me realize that I was mind-raped by the authors of the pre- and sequels. I feel cheap and violated. I have recently read Dune for the third time, am in DM for the 3rd, but the other real books I have only read once.

Anyway, some of these may be able to be explained away or plausiubly worked-around by a shameless hack author, but by any reasonable standard I think they are inconsistencies.

*In DM the Navigators are described as being able to float in their chamber in 0 Gravity in space, and Edric floats in a suspensor-type chamber that simulates that effect while planet-side. NOT floating in an air pressure chamber...which is dumb.

*When Leto and Paul are in the Guildship on the way to Arrakis, Leto goes to some length to mention that passenger frigates are anonymous, and if someone (I think he said Harkonnens?) was next to them they wouldn't have any idea. Maybe it's just me, but if I was a Duke grooming my royal heir, I would let him know that there was once an attack in a guildship...by a Harkonnen...WITH A NO-SHIP!

*For a guy that was infected and disfigured by a Bene Gesserit that he raped, the Baron is pretty mild to the BG, especially Mohiam. And the same can be said of both of them when they meet on Dune later. It's as if...IT NEVER HAPPENED.

*The BG seem to give several indications, in inner monologues, that the Baron is fat because of personal habits, not a sinister BG STD which is common knowledge among the BG in the prequels.

*In Dune, Poitrin is mentioned as a laid-back paradise world by the Fremen from their wanderings or hajj or whatever. Jessica has a OM experience from Poitrin that says they were captured by slavers...not whisked away by a slaver to paradise after having coerced him at gunpoint during the slave uprising.

*Dune has several mentions of Ix without mention of House Vernius. The confederacy of Ix is negotiating with the Jihad in DM, but Paul doesn't give any mention of his bubble-boy uncle. I would figure that Paul might cut them a break based on that relationship but he doesn't. It's as if it NEVER HAPPENED.

*The Duke, Thufir and others seem to be shocked -or at least somewhat surprised- that there are sardaukar among the Harkonnens on DUne. Yet Leto's best bud's world was invaded and occupied with sardaukar. That seems odd to me. Like maybe they should have expected it, unless it never happened.

*Jessica seems to have first hand knowledge of the old duke, and adverse feelings. This has been covered, but the jolly old man that was killed by the harkonnen plot before Jessica was dropped off at Caladan (someone already covered that one) seems to have been a revision at best. The fact that Leto never tells Paul "You have to watch the Harkonnens son, you know they killed my daddy" points to it as well.

*If the Atreides were taken down because of their ability to field a small army that was comprable with the Sardaukar, wouldn't it follow that: 1)There would not be so many Swordmasters that graduated regularly to so many houses as depicted in the Prequels and B) The Emperor would want to suppress or put down the House that was full of Jedis and had the Jedi Academy on their planet?

*Rossak is part of the Hajj..yet no zensunnis appear on it in the prequels.

*CHOAM is depicted as being much less lenient of a drop in revenue in Dune, yet Ix and Lankveil are allowed to drop their productiuon for lengthy periods in the prequels. This is a stretch.

*Navigators: in DM Edric seems to communicate freely with norms. Yet in the Prequels DTSY'a'HJGWE'r can't seem to carry on a conversation.


Like I said these are nit-picky, but they bother me. It just seems to me that KJA wanted to write about some kewl stuff and he could get his hands on a (D)universe and paying audience to use. I doubt BH had killer robots, Jedis, swashbuckling musketeer jedi instructors, brains in mason jars, cyborg walkers, cyborg condor spaceships, Hoth, shape shifting goddesses or Elvira lightning women in his notes when he put together the back story of the Duniverse.

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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby lotek » 02 Apr 2010 09:53

welcome to the house of pain!


A Little Galach wrote: I doubt BH had killer robots, Jedis, swashbuckling musketeer jedi instructors, brains in mason jars, cyborg walkers, cyborg condor spaceships, Hoth, shape shifting goddesses or Elvira lightning women in his notes when he put together the back story of the Duniverse.


BH has nothing in mind other than the hack puts there :)

I think "typo"?

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Re: "New Canon" Inconsistency Concordance

Postby A Little Galach » 02 Apr 2010 10:35

Yeah, that's a typo.

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