Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby Freakzilla » 05 Aug 2009 09:08

redbugpest wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
redbugpest wrote:
Hunchback Jack wrote:
redbugpest wrote:I'll have to find the reference in Machine to determine how long before - and am still looking into the faster than light / light speed issue.


I think you'll find it pretty early on in TBJ, from memory. I read the first two-thirds of that book (and none of the rest), and remembered that plot point. I realized at the time that I had enough info to go on to Dune 7 if/when it was published.

(Yes, sadly, it was *that* predictable).

HBJ


Couldn't find it in Battle, I'll have to get my copy of Machine back from the person who borrowed it to check that. At any rate, the signal could have been received well within the confines of the empire early on, and the restored Omnius then would have fled somewhere to rebuild it's empire.

It's really just a literary device to preserve the bad guy in such a way that everyone thinks that they are destroyed, so the author can bring them back at a later point. For that matter, I am not comfortable with your interpretations that the HM returned from "the farthest edge". I couldn't find that reference as well, just that they returned from the scattering.

Please feel free to enlighten me...


You can't provide a quote to back up your claim but want us to provide a quote to prove a non-issue?

:lol:

You're right, it is just a literary device, one with no backing in science. This is a SCIENCE-fiction book, right?


Fiction = "A literary work whose content is produced by the imagination and is not necessarily based on fact."

This thread focused on how the writing was crap because it is not scientifically accurate. Its science-FICTION.


No, it's SCIENCE-fiction. If we want fiction it has it's own row in the book store.

I will get you that quote as soon as I can. You have to understand, I have not taken the time to create digitized research copies of any of these new books, as some of you have with Dune. I have to do it the old fashioned way.


All you have to do is ask.
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby Freakzilla » 05 Aug 2009 09:11

science fiction
n. A literary or cinematic genre in which fantasy, typically based on speculative scientific discoveries or developments, environmental changes, space travel, or life on other planets, forms part of the plot or background.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby Freakzilla » 05 Aug 2009 09:13

Besides, even if Omnius COULD englobe humanity, the tactic is useless against foldspace engines, which can just jump beyond the englobement in an instant.
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby SandChigger » 05 Aug 2009 09:16

redbugpest wrote:Couldn't find it in Battle, I'll have to get my copy of Machine back from the person who borrowed it to check that. At any rate, the signal could have been received well within the confines of the empire early on, and the restored Omnius then would have fled somewhere to rebuild it's empire.

How convenient, that you don't have your copy of MC. :roll:

What quote is it exactly that you're looking for, Precious? Shall we do your work for you?

And was there any mention of the probe traveling or fleeing elsewhere? No.

"Come now, Omnius, you never imagined such a dramatic defeat," Erasmus said, not scolding but merely stating a fact. "You transmitted a complete copy of yourself off into nothingness. A last-gasp attempt at survival. A desperate hope—something a human might feel."

"Do not insult me."

That transmission had traveled for thousands of years, degrading along the way, deteriorating into something else. Erasmus had no memory of that endless, silent journey at the speed of light. After their incalculable trek through static and interstellar waste, the Omnius signal had encountered one of the long-dispatched probes and seized upon it as a beachhead. Far, far from any taint of human civilization, the restored Omnius began to re-create itself. Over millennia it had regenerated, building a new Synchronized Empire-and Omnius had begun making plans to return, this time with a far superior machine force.

Or are you going to GRASP AT STRAWS and interpret that "Far, far from any taint of human civilization..." as meaning that the probe travelled further away, instead of taking it at face value as meaning the probe received the signal in such a place ... which is the ERROR and the real issue here?

Tell Kevin to come up with something more original.

Oh ... no ... that was the whole cause of this problem in the first place, right?

It's really just a literary device to preserve the bad guy in such a way that everyone thinks that they are destroyed, so the author can bring them back at a later point. For that matter, I am not comfortable with your interpretations that the HM returned from "the farthest edge". I couldn't find that reference as well, just that they returned from the scattering.

Please feel free to enlighten me...

Obfuscation.

As for your bullshit about "science-FICTION", thanks for proving that YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND SHIT about the genre as a whole, either.

And if you don't have electronic copies it's just because you haven't bothered looking for them. And please don't bullshit about the morality of copies obtained for free online. By your shilling you've amply demonstrated that you have no integrity or morality.
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby redbugpest » 05 Aug 2009 09:21

Freakzilla wrote:Besides, even if Omnius COULD englobe humanity, the tactic is useless against foldspace engines, which can just jump beyond the englobement in an instant.


I hope I can take this to mean that you see at least some validity in my argument.

I'll be coming back to the englobment thing shortly - Have real work to do for a while now.
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby Freakzilla » 05 Aug 2009 09:26

redbugpest wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Besides, even if Omnius COULD englobe humanity, the tactic is useless against foldspace engines, which can just jump beyond the englobement in an instant.


I hope I can take this to mean that you see at least some validity in my argument.

I'll be coming back to the englobment thing shortly - Have real work to do for a while now.


No, I'm actually completely ignoring your argument and just assuming, just for fun, that this could have happened, to show that even if this englobement succeeded it would be instantly defeated.
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby redbugpest » 05 Aug 2009 09:32

Just when I thought that you may be open to alternative points of view....

Too bad.
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby SandChigger » 05 Aug 2009 09:35

You haven't provided ANY argument yet and your "alternative point of view" is just a mindless regurgitation of KJA's bullshit.

Waste of time.
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby Freakzilla » 05 Aug 2009 09:36

redbugpest wrote:Just when I thought that you may be open to alternative points of view....

Too bad.


What point of view was that again? That a probe sent from within the Old Empire intercepted Omnius' dying signal and built a new empire outside of humainties multi-galactic empire in under 15,000 years?

Any alternative viewpoint must be scientificaly plausible. This one is not even POSSIBLE.
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby TheDukester » 05 Aug 2009 09:58

redbugpest wrote:It's really just a literary device ...

Oh, so that's what it is ... :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby loremaster » 05 Aug 2009 10:40

I've said it before and i shall say it again: If you cannot clearly see discrepancies of this magnitude you are not worth arguing with. You're arguing over such a tedious point which, (that?) even if it were true would still NOT redeem the books.

This is not a maths calculation, it's not of those situations where you're going to point out a missed decimal point and we'll all exclaim "I see it now, those books have been pretty good all along".

EVEN IF KJA went back and re-wrote that the machines did use FTL engines (and i get the feeling he only included the wording about lightspeed etc to make it sound technical anyway, it's neither particularly important to the plot nor impressive in its own right. It's just typical of KJA babbling without thinking).

Anyway, even if he did, the books would still be shit.

Deer Tracks, Boar Tracks, Train Tracks.... you're so completely missing the point i cant see any hope of you ever seeing OUR point of view.... RBP - are you trying to tell us that actually, we're all just plain wrong? that WE are the ones who do not understand?
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby Rakis » 05 Aug 2009 10:58

redbugpest wrote:Just when I thought that you may be open to alternative points of view....

Too bad.


Hey, i have an opened mind :)

Can i have that quote from Machine, now?
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby TheDukester » 05 Aug 2009 11:07

redbugpest wrote:Just when I thought that you may be open to alternative points of view....

Ah, the classics ...

Ladies and gents: say hello to KJA Apologist Argument #1-A:

"Agree with me, or else you're close-minded."

It's officially Approved By Keith™ and everything!
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 05 Aug 2009 11:21

redbugpest wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
redbugpest wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:This is a pretty huge mistake by KJA. 15kLY is not very far, our galaxy is around 100kLY across. And Galaxies are MILLIONS of LY apart. Even if the signal started at the edge of our galaxy (which it didn’t), the furthest away from our galaxy it could have travelled is 15kLY… but the empire was already in OTHER galaxies by the time of the God Emperor… and the Scattering took humanity so much further beyond that point that the empire lost track of where everyone went… and the HM came back from the Scattering… which is a hell of a lot further from the Old Empire than this signal could have travelled…
I think you see the problem. That signal couldn’t have gotten Omius very far WITHIN the empire, let alone outside it, really let alone outside the scattering.
And if you think this is a big mistake in their writing, wait for my next thread – this mistake is actually just laying the groundwork for a muuuuuch larger mistake.

Well, lets start with this. The mistake if taking one small paragraph from "The Battle of Corrin" and applying the narrowest possible interpretation as if it is gospel. As I recall, earlier in the series (in Machines i think) one of the other copies of the synchronized Omnius Everminds had the bright idea to send out a few thousand copies of itself in a machine version of the scattering. I think that it is just as plausible that the data packet beamed by the Corrin Omnius could have been received either by one of those Omnius copies.
More later, when I have more time (like I said on an earlier post, still about a week out on getting through all of my priority projects, though I am getting *some* more time now...

So... you're saying that probes are faster then electromagnetic waves? :crazy:

No - sent out prior to the data packet on update ships - I'll have to find the reference in Machine to determine how long before - and am still looking into the faster than light / light speed issue.
Off for the night :)



ALLLLLrighty than. I see everyone else has already gone over most of the obvious reasons that your argument makes little sense.

I didn't take one little paragraph from the battle of corrin, I took info from the Dune 7 novels - where it specifically says that the transmission WAS picked up by one of the probes that had been sent out (which actually DID travel at faster than light speeds, you are correct) - this changes nothing, the transmission still would have only been able to travel 10 or so thousand lightyears.

I knew there was going to be some goofy ideas to retcon this mistake, but I was expecting better than this. The FACT is that the AUTHORS DIDN'T THINK OF ANY OF THIS. They didn't even KNOW they had made a mistake. Only now, years after the books are written are they beginning to grasp the flaws and come up with excuses. If readers have to make as rediculous a stretch as you are to justify an oversight by the author this is a huge problem.

For example, Freakzilla once jokingly said that the magical reapearing arm scene (FH mistake in Messiah) wasn't really a mistake, the character had started with THREE arms! He was joking, the truth of the matter is that FH slipped up in editing and obviously latter changed the character to a one armed man, and missed removing a sentence where he had two arms in revision. How much better it is to just admit that FH made an editing mistake than to try to come up with crazy BS to cover for him.

See my point? KJA wasn't aware that this was even a problem, or else he would have written an explanation into the book. If he DID know it was a problem, he just ignored it, assuming no one was smart enough to notice.
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby Hunchback Jack » 05 Aug 2009 12:49

redbugpest wrote:
Hunchback Jack wrote:
redbugpest wrote:I'll have to find the reference in Machine to determine how long before - and am still looking into the faster than light / light speed issue.


I think you'll find it pretty early on in TBJ, from memory. I read the first two-thirds of that book (and none of the rest), and remembered that plot point. I realized at the time that I had enough info to go on to Dune 7 if/when it was published.

(Yes, sadly, it was *that* predictable).

HBJ


Couldn't find it in Battle, I'll have to get my copy of Machine back from the person who borrowed it to check that.


Not Battle. "TBJ" stand for "The Butlerian Jihad", the *first* in that series. I'm pretty sure it's there.

Edited to add: I'm talking about a passage where Omnius sent out copies of itself, either by probes or signal. Can't remember the details, but just remember the exasperation I felt when I read it, because it was obvious they were setting up a reappearance of Omnius in Dune 7. So I'm pretty sure it's in book 1.

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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby Tleszer » 05 Aug 2009 13:20

I don't remember the reasoning by Omnius or Erasmus, but I do remember that a sandworm ate it and ate some of Selim Wormrider's enemies.

Sorry that wasn't more useful. Do you need anything more probing, redbugpeeny? I'm sure KJA is happy to oblige!
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby SandChigger » 05 Aug 2009 17:44

Is this what the asshole wants?

1 or 2 talent-free hacks in The Butlerian Jihad wrote: FOR WEEKS, AS Barbarossa continued to subjugate and rebuild Giedi Prime, Omnius guided his support machines in the creation of sophisticated, long-range probes, each one containing a core copy of his mind and aggressive personality.

Upon landing, the probes would extend automated systems, establishing self-contained factories on each planet, units that in turn would build additional support robots...mechanized colonies that would take root far from the main Synchronized Worlds, far from the League of Nobles. Though machines could settle and exploit virtually any planet, the cymeks insisted on focusing on human-compatible worlds. Though barren worlds seemed to be less trouble, the evermind understood the desirability of both.

When the work had been completed, Omnius used his watcheyes to observe the flurry of launches—five thousand probes simultaneously taking flight, programmed to scatter to the farthest corners of the galaxy, even if such flights took millennia. Timescales did not matter.

Compact units shaped like bubbles, the soaring probes filled the sky with sparkling lights and green exhaust plumes. At appropriate future times, Omnius would reconnect with each of those mechanisms, one by one.

Thinking machines were capable of making long-term plans—and living to see them carried out. By the time humans expanded into those distant star systems, Omnius would already be there.

Waiting.

That the probe which intercepts the Corrin signal was one of the above probes was never in question, so this is just bullshit. That the probes could travel faster than lightspeed is made clear by the fact that one of them ends up on Arrakis shortly afterward.

NOW address the real issue. :roll:
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby GamePlayer » 05 Aug 2009 18:02

TheDukester wrote:
redbugpest wrote:Just when I thought that you may be open to alternative points of view....

Ah, the classics ...

Ladies and gents: say hello to KJA Apologist Argument #1-A:

"Agree with me, or else you're close-minded."

It's officially Approved By Keith™ and everything!


LOL! Funny because it's true :)
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby Hunchback Jack » 05 Aug 2009 18:04

Chig, dunno about Pest, but that's the passage I was thinking of.

HBJ
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby redbugpest » 05 Aug 2009 20:18

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
redbugpest wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
redbugpest wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:This is a pretty huge mistake by KJA. 15kLY is not very far, our galaxy is around 100kLY across. And Galaxies are MILLIONS of LY apart. Even if the signal started at the edge of our galaxy (which it didn’t), the furthest away from our galaxy it could have travelled is 15kLY… but the empire was already in OTHER galaxies by the time of the God Emperor… and the Scattering took humanity so much further beyond that point that the empire lost track of where everyone went… and the HM came back from the Scattering… which is a hell of a lot further from the Old Empire than this signal could have travelled…
I think you see the problem. That signal couldn’t have gotten Omius very far WITHIN the empire, let alone outside it, really let alone outside the scattering.
And if you think this is a big mistake in their writing, wait for my next thread – this mistake is actually just laying the groundwork for a muuuuuch larger mistake.

Well, lets start with this. The mistake if taking one small paragraph from "The Battle of Corrin" and applying the narrowest possible interpretation as if it is gospel. As I recall, earlier in the series (in Machines i think) one of the other copies of the synchronized Omnius Everminds had the bright idea to send out a few thousand copies of itself in a machine version of the scattering. I think that it is just as plausible that the data packet beamed by the Corrin Omnius could have been received either by one of those Omnius copies.
More later, when I have more time (like I said on an earlier post, still about a week out on getting through all of my priority projects, though I am getting *some* more time now...

So... you're saying that probes are faster then electromagnetic waves? :crazy:

No - sent out prior to the data packet on update ships - I'll have to find the reference in Machine to determine how long before - and am still looking into the faster than light / light speed issue.
Off for the night :)



ALLLLLrighty than. I see everyone else has already gone over most of the obvious reasons that your argument makes little sense.

I didn't take one little paragraph from the battle of corrin, I took info from the Dune 7 novels - where it specifically says that the transmission WAS picked up by one of the probes that had been sent out (which actually DID travel at faster than light speeds, you are correct) - this changes nothing, the transmission still would have only been able to travel 10 or so thousand lightyears.

I knew there was going to be some goofy ideas to retcon this mistake, but I was expecting better than this. The FACT is that the AUTHORS DIDN'T THINK OF ANY OF THIS. They didn't even KNOW they had made a mistake. Only now, years after the books are written are they beginning to grasp the flaws and come up with excuses. If readers have to make as rediculous a stretch as you are to justify an oversight by the author this is a huge problem.

For example, Freakzilla once jokingly said that the magical reapearing arm scene (FH mistake in Messiah) wasn't really a mistake, the character had started with THREE arms! He was joking, the truth of the matter is that FH slipped up in editing and obviously latter changed the character to a one armed man, and missed removing a sentence where he had two arms in revision. How much better it is to just admit that FH made an editing mistake than to try to come up with crazy BS to cover for him.

See my point? KJA wasn't aware that this was even a problem, or else he would have written an explanation into the book. If he DID know it was a problem, he just ignored it, assuming no one was smart enough to notice.


Hmmm - but here YOU are making such a fuss about how important this is, and how it shows that the books are garbage. Why is it important to you that according to physics the signal could only have traveled X distance? Why are you asking me to explain it in the first place if you were just going to chalk it up as an oversight?

Oh, and I didn't have to come up with crazy BS. The signal was received - Omnius went and set up a new empire.
We can agree that this is a fact from the books, your only problem is that YOU are the guys who are obsessing with how far a signal traveled at light speed, and how it couldn't work.

The flow of the entire story is not dependent on having an explanation written anywhere about EXACTLY how far the signal traveled, and how it was picked up, etc. What makes you think that the authors are scrambling to cover this up?

Your set of issues are build on a shaky foundation of minutia that you are extrapolating into something it is not.

If you already have this prized piece of logic mapped out, how about posting the chapter and verse from Dune 7 and I'll read it myself.
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby SandChigger » 05 Aug 2009 20:39

What do you want posted now, Precious?

(The point about how far the signal traveled is that it limits WHERE the probe could have intercepted it. Since there is no explicit statement that the probe THEN sped off further away, most readers will logically assume that Omnius began to reconstruct his empire in that vicinity. The problem is that THAT LOCATION must necessarily be within the confines of the Corrino Imperium, which expanded to include a million worlds [according to the House books]. Someone would have eventually stumbled onto the new machine empire, because it wasn't anywhere near the scene of the later Scattering. Is this too difficult for you, Petal?)
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby redbugpest » 05 Aug 2009 20:55

SandChigger wrote:What do you want posted now, Precious?

(The point about how far the signal traveled is that it limits WHERE the probe could have intercepted it. Since there is no explicit statement that the probe THEN sped off further away, most readers will logically assume that Omnius began to reconstruct his empire in that vicinity. The problem is that THAT LOCATION must necessarily be within the confines of the Corrino Imperium, which expanded to include a million worlds [according to the House books]. Someone would have eventually stumbled onto the new machine empire, because it wasn't anywhere near the scene of the later Scattering. Is this too difficult for you, Petal?)


Well, that might be how YOU interpreted it, and, of course you are a representative cross section of readers, so most everyone must take it that way...

Wrong .

There is absolutely nothing to indicate the probe stayed right where it was. If all through FH Dune and into Dune 7 we are wondering what the threat from out in the scattering is, then I would think that when we told that the data was picked up by a probe, and we can infer that the probe must have jumped away to the far reaches of the galaxy / universe /whatever.

Is that too much of a stretch of the imagination for you, or do you need to have authors spell out this kind of minutia?

It's just not that hard! :crazy:
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby TheDukester » 05 Aug 2009 20:56

I will donate to your favorite charity if you learn to spell "minutiae" correctly.
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby redbugpest » 05 Aug 2009 21:00

TheDukester wrote:I will donate to your favorite charity if you learn to spell "minutiae" correctly.


WOW - I am awed by your insights...

Why do you bother posting at all? Have you even read Dune - I'm not seeing anything constructive coming from you at all. Or is bookstore antics the top of your game....
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Re: Englobement - ATTN: REDBUGPEST

Postby TheDukester » 05 Aug 2009 21:05

redbugpest wrote:Why do you bother posting at all?

I practice my spelling here.

I think I'm getting pretty good at it, too. Earlier today, I even spelled "scream" correctly. How about you?
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