The Jihad (and Alia), round... whatever.

[Lundse]

Just a new thread to summarize and remind everyone that it is now 4 months ago KJA got the opportunity to respond to this.
(This is the debate that was cut short by me being banned from DN - Arnoldo and others had their turn and rejected it).

With the new influx of pro-prequel-blood (hi ) , I thought it would be fun to give it whirl (I know, I am odd that way, we've been through that).

/Lundse

-

Message for KJA @ http://www.youtube.com/user/writerKJA:

Hi. I was wondering if you could clear up the following problem, explained in the next two posts. It seems to be an inherent contradiction in the purported canon incompassing both the Frank Herbert originals and the new books...
The contradiction is of course expressed in claim 10. Am I misreading something here, which statement is wrong according to the combined canon, or does not follow from the claims I believe it does?
Thanks in advance!

1 - Alia has memories from the time of the Jihad, about Omnius et al. (originals).
2 - A. wishes for a machine to give her mentat level advice (Dune Messiah).
3 - A. characterises such a machine as 'compliant' and trustworthy (DM).
4 - A machine with mentat-like capabilities is a powerful artificial intelligence (definition).
5 - Omnius was a powerful artificial intelligence (prequels).
6 - O. tried to enslave and kill mankind (prequels).
7 - O. was an AI which was not compliant or trustworthy (5 and 6).
8 - Alia knows that a powerful AI can be untrustworthy and non-'compliant' the degree of enabling genocide (1 and 7).
9 - A. believes a powerful AI would be trustworthy and 'compliant' (3 and 4).
10 - A. both believes, and does not believe, that a powerful artificial intelligence is 'compliant' and trustworthy (8 and 9).

[SandChigger]

I'm sure you'll get an answer now that Kevin's new mouthpiece—or maybe mouth-receptacle is more accurate?—is here among us.

(He's a little bit brighter than TAZ, but every bit as obtuse as arnolda. Have fun! )

[Schu]

Hehe.. also, Lundse, it's over 100 on the petition now, you should fix your sig.

[redbugpest]

Just a new thread to summarize and remind everyone that it is now 4 months ago KJA got the opportunity to respond to this.
(This is the debate that was cut short by me being banned from DN - Arnoldo and others had their turn and rejected it).

With the new influx of pro-prequel-blood (hi ) , I thought it would be fun to give it whirl (I know, I am odd that way, we've been through that).

/Lundse

-

Message for KJA @ http://www.youtube.com/user/writerKJA:

Hi. I was wondering if you could clear up the following problem, explained in the next two posts. It seems to be an inherent contradiction in the purported canon incompassing both the Frank Herbert originals and the new books...
The contradiction is of course expressed in claim 10. Am I misreading something here, which statement is wrong according to the combined canon, or does not follow from the claims I believe it does?
Thanks in advance!

1 - Alia has memories from the time of the Jihad, about Omnius et al. (originals).
2 - A. wishes for a machine to give her mentat level advice (Dune Messiah).
3 - A. characterises such a machine as 'compliant' and trustworthy (DM).
4 - A machine with mentat-like capabilities is a powerful artificial intelligence (definition).
5 - Omnius was a powerful artificial intelligence (prequels).
6 - O. tried to enslave and kill mankind (prequels).
7 - O. was an AI which was not compliant or trustworthy (5 and 6).
8 - Alia knows that a powerful AI can be untrustworthy and non-'compliant' the degree of enabling genocide (1 and 7).
9 - A. believes a powerful AI would be trustworthy and 'compliant' (3 and 4).
10 - A. both believes, and does not believe, that a powerful artificial intelligence is 'compliant' and trustworthy (8 and 9).

I think the answers lies in some basic human psychology. Alia has memories form the Jihad, but all through the original books this other memory is not a clear recollection of all things past, but rather more like a background noise that can manifest as a sudden “feeling about danger” or as competing voices. Alia has theses memories as does any reverend mother, but that does not mean she has a clear understanding of the nature of Omnius, and sees that as a problem from the past. Her desire for a trustworthy AI is a purely selfish one, because she feels that in her time, they could control it better, and would not make the mistakes of the distant past.

In other words, It won’t happen to me.

I’m sure my explanation of other voices was a bit rudimentary, that is an area that I am looking to deepen my breadth of knowledge on, as I feel that Frank himself may have changed up how he was using it as the story progressed. But that is a post for a different thread.

[Lundse]

I think the answers lies in some basic human psychology. Alia has memories form the Jihad, but all through the original books this other memory is not a clear recollection of all things past, but rather more like a background noise that can manifest as a sudden “feeling about danger” or as competing voices. Alia has theses memories as does any reverend mother, but that does not mean she has a clear understanding of the nature of Omnius, and sees that as a problem from the past. Her desire for a trustworthy AI is a purely selfish one, because she feels that in her time, they could control it better, and would not make the mistakes of the distant past.

In other words, It won’t happen to me.

I’m sure my explanation of other voices was a bit rudimentary, that is an area that I am looking to deepen my breadth of knowledge on, as I feel that Frank himself may have changed up how he was using it as the story progressed. But that is a post for a different thread.

So you are basicaly saying that my premise:
"Alia has memories from the time of the Jihad, about Omnius et al. (originals)."
is not precise?

And that Alia does not have detailed memories of that time. Is this corrent.

Because Frank wrote several times, about such memories, as "having past lives?" Leto II, with the same kind of genetic memory, recalled (on-stage, as it were) minute details of smell of choice of words. Odrade remembers Van Gogh. If anything, genetic memory in the Dune books by Frank Herbert seem to imply an extremely precise version of memory.
Of course, the precise nature of OM also connects it to the traits and themes of those who can do it; the Bene Gesserit trained and conscious-expanded via Melange. Both things which imply minute observation and finegrained intake of details (Paul saw a Navigator in space).

Also, the fact that humanity was all but wiped out by a rogue AI is hardly a little detail of humanitys past, is it? One would presume that quite a few voices should have some rather strong opinions about that...

On what do you base your belief that Alia was not fully conscious about such a galaxy-spanning and history-altering event (bigger than Van Gogh painting something, I should say)?


PS: We can get into your talk about Alia's motivation for "wanting to believe" or "wanting the AI" in the first place later, lets clear up this one first, OK?

[Freakzilla]

Alia was pre-born. She has total recall of the lives of every ancestor, same as Leto II and Ghanima.

[redbugpest]

Alia was pre-born. She has total recall of the lives of every ancestor, same as Leto II and Ghanima.

But Leto had to consusully sink into them if he wanted to "experiance them, and was well aware of the dangers of getting lost in them. He also had a full presience, which Alia did not.

[Freakzilla]

Alia was pre-born. She has total recall of the lives of every ancestor, same as Leto II and Ghanima.

But Leto had to consusully sink into them if he wanted to "experiance them, and was well aware of the dangers of getting lost in them.

What makes you think Alia could not do this?

He also had a full presience, which Alia did not.

Alia's prescience was clouded by the Dune Tarot and close proximity to another powerfull prescient, her brother, yet she still prophesized from her Fane daily. She overdoesed trying to see the identity of the future father of her child, which I believe would have been Duncan, who was shielded from prescience by Edric the Guild Navigator.

There was nothing wrong with her prescience. Leto's was just more powerfull.

[redbugpest]

I think the answers lies in some basic human psychology. Alia has memories form the Jihad, but all through the original books this other memory is not a clear recollection of all things past, but rather more like a background noise that can manifest as a sudden “feeling about danger” or as competing voices. Alia has theses memories as does any reverend mother, but that does not mean she has a clear understanding of the nature of Omnius, and sees that as a problem from the past. Her desire for a trustworthy AI is a purely selfish one, because she feels that in her time, they could control it better, and would not make the mistakes of the distant past.

In other words, It won’t happen to me.

I’m sure my explanation of other voices was a bit rudimentary, that is an area that I am looking to deepen my breadth of knowledge on, as I feel that Frank himself may have changed up how he was using it as the story progressed. But that is a post for a different thread.

So you are basicaly saying that my premise:
"Alia has memories from the time of the Jihad, about Omnius et al. (originals)."
is not precise?

And that Alia does not have detailed memories of that time. Is this corrent.

Because Frank wrote several times, about such memories, as "having past lives?" Leto II, with the same kind of genetic memory, recalled (on-stage, as it were) minute details of smell of choice of words. Odrade remembers Van Gogh. If anything, genetic memory in the Dune books by Frank Herbert seem to imply an extremely precise version of memory.
Of course, the precise nature of OM also connects it to the traits and themes of those who can do it; the Bene Gesserit trained and conscious-expanded via Melange. Both things which imply minute observation and finegrained intake of details (Paul saw a Navigator in space).

Also, the fact that humanity was all but wiped out by a rogue AI is hardly a little detail of humanitys past, is it? One would presume that quite a few voices should have some rather strong opinions about that...

On what do you base your belief that Alia was not fully conscious about such a galaxy-spanning and history-altering event (bigger than Van Gogh painting something, I should say)?


PS: We can get into your talk about Alia's motivation for "wanting to believe" or "wanting the AI" in the first place later, lets clear up this one first, OK?

Humanity has a notoriously short attention span when it comes to our pasts, and we often make the same fundamental mistakes over and over again. Yes, She can know that AI almost exterminated humankind thousands of years ago, but that does not preclude her from believing that it could be different this time round. “It won’t happen to me” or “We know more than we did then”

Ali had the memories in her Other Memory, I think that is clear – Its more along the lines of she sis not have all these memories consciously, in the forefront of her thoughts at all times. It’s not like Duncan, and his serial Ghola memories.

The other memory was not fully your own memories. You had to search for them, as you would search the internet today. Sometimes memories would surface on their own, because of sight, smell sound, or because those other lives wanted the attention to warn of danger, etc.

Leto II had much more control over it than the Bene Gesserit, but still recognised the dangers of being able to get lost in them.

[redbugpest]

Alia was pre-born. She has total recall of the lives of every ancestor, same as Leto II and Ghanima.

But Leto had to consusully sink into them if he wanted to "experiance them, and was well aware of the dangers of getting lost in them.

What makes you think Alia could not do this?

He also had a full presience, which Alia did not.

Alia's prescience was clouded by the Dune Tarot and close proximity to another powerfull prescient, her brother, yet she still prophesized from her Fane daily. She overdoesed trying to see the identity of the future father of her child, which I believe would have been Duncan, who was shielded from prescience by Edric the Guild Navigator.

There was nothing wrong with her prescience. Leto's was just more powerfull.

And as you said, hers was clouded.

I think it takes a leap of faith to say that she would not have been interested in AI, and could feel that it could be controlled “This Time” because she knew it was untrustworthy last time.

Leto II knew that humanity would need technology again, and would have to get beyond the old fears to make the golden path happen. That is why he pushed the Ixans as he did.

The AI of our ancestors was untrustworthy! Our AI is trustworthy!

The two thoughts are not mutually exclusive.

[Freakzilla]

Who said the Ixian Navigation Machine was intelligent? There was no current AI to compare to that of the past.

Technology is not the same as AI.

[TheDukester]

This is awesome. Bri-Bri Conway tries to have a Dune discussion ... and gets his head handed to him.

By all means, keep going, Bri-Bri. Quality entertainment is so difficult to come by these days.

[Freakzilla]

Ali had the memories in her Other Memory, I think that is clear – Its more along the lines of she sis not have all these memories consciously, in the forefront of her thoughts at all times.

Did you read the FH books? Alia went insane in her attempt to keep those OM personas FROM her consciousness. Only two pre-born we know of did NOT go insane; Leto II who basically made a deal with his most powerfull ancestor's persona, Harum, to keep the others in check, and Ghanima, who blocked out her OM through hypnosis.

...It’s not like Duncan, and his serial Ghola memories.

It's EXACTLY like Duncan and his serial memories, but for the fact that hers are of ancestors, his was of former incarnations of himself.

The other memory was not fully your own memories. You had to search for them, as you would search the internet today. Sometimes memories would surface on their own, because of sight, smell sound, or because those other lives wanted the attention to warn of danger, etc.

This applies to Reverend Mothers, not pre-born. RMs spend up to 50 years training to deal with OM, pre-born have them forced on them before birth and have no choice but to accept every detail of those past lives.

Leto II had much more control over it than the Bene Gesserit, but still recognised the dangers of being able to get lost in them.

He had no choice, he didn't have the benifit of BG training. That was his Gom Jabbar test, learn to live with his OM or die.

[TheDukester]

Did you read the FH books?

Best line EV-AH!

(Sorry, Freak, I know you enjoy the actual debate part, no matter whom with; I'll try to restrain myself from now on).

[Lundse]

Well, others (and myself in the original post, why did you not address that?) have already shown how detailed and "in your face" Alia's memories obviously were. I noticed these things from your answers:

In other words, It won’t happen to me.

Humanity has a notoriously short attention span when it comes to our pasts, and we often make the same fundamental mistakes over and over again. Yes, She can know that AI almost exterminated humankind thousands of years ago, but that does not preclude her from believing that it could be different this time round. “It won’t happen to me” or “We know more than we did then”

I think it takes a leap of faith to say that she would not have been interested in AI, and could feel that it could be controlled “This Time” because she knew it was untrustworthy last time.

This suggests you are going a bit off course here. Of course she was "interested in AI", Dune Messiah says so rather explicitly:

But Alia longed now for a compliant machine. They could not have suffered from Idaho's limitations. You could never distrust a machine.

My argument was merely that Alia knew that a powerful AI had proven to be, to but it very mildly, not entirely trustworthy and not exactly "compliant".
Now, whether she believed that she would be able to control it this time, or that we had somehow grown as humans to some weird vantage point where murderous, overpowerful AIs simply cannot happen or harm us is completely irrelevant. So is the reason she may have held such beliefs, as Arnoldo and Byron have had so much trouble grokking.

The point is simply that she knew of a powerful AI which was not compliant and trustworthy.

Do you agree that she knew about such an AI (in the "Frank's and KJAs books taken together as canon-universe")?

I am just trying to tick off the premises here, so we can get to the argument part. If you believe Alia's extensive (and intrusive) OM might not hold this slight detail about AIs, or that it may have slipped her mind (whilst she was thinking about AIs!), please let me know where you get this idea that Alia have black spots in her OM, or is similarly mentally challenged.

[redbugpest]

Who said the Ixian Navigation Machine was intelligent? There was no current AI to compare to that of the past.

Technology is not the same as AI.

AI does not always refer to “Human Like Intelligence”, but is more commonly associated with the abilities of machines to handle decision making based on previous experience, incomplete data, etc.

I never said about the Ixian navigation machine being intelligent, though I would think that it would have a strong AI engine to predict probability of stellar motion within the limits of the database it uses as a reference.

[redbugpest]

This is awesome. Bri-Bri Conway tries to have a Dune discussion ... and gets his head handed to him.

By all means, keep going, Bri-Bri. Quality entertainment is so difficult to come by these days.

Woof, Wooof, Woof.

Thought I would speak in your native lingo there Duh Dukesta...

[TheDukester]

Yawn.

Wow. Good one. No, really.

[Freakzilla]

Who said the Ixian Navigation Machine was intelligent? There was no current AI to compare to that of the past.

Technology is not the same as AI.

AI does not always refer to “Human Like Intelligence”, but is more commonly associated with the abilities of machines to handle decision making based on previous experience, incomplete data, etc.

I didn't say "human-like", there was NO AI at that time to compare.

I never said about the Ixian navigation machine being intelligent, though I would think that it would have a strong AI engine to predict probability of stellar motion within the limits of the database it uses as a reference.

OK, what technology that Leto encouraged are you refering to, no-fields? Hardly intelligent by any definition.

[redbugpest]

“Did you read the FH books? Alia went insane in her attempt to keep those OM personas FROM her consciousness. Only two pre-born we know of did NOT go insane; Leto II who basically made a deal with his most powerfull ancestor's persona, Harum, to keep the others in check, and Ghanima, who blocked out her OM through hypnosis.”

The Gohla serial memories are not other personas vying for control, and memories of other lives. Much less to assimilate and deal with – they are Duncan’s own memories of his own life. In Alia’s case, she did not have the control to be able to plumb the depths of these other people’s memories without getting lost herself. So while her Other Memory contained memories of people who lived during the Jihad, one cannot say with certainty that she spent time adequately exploring them, especially since she was struggling for control from the voices.

If I am wrong, please show me chapter and verse. I do not believe that Frank did more than mention that her memories extended that far back.

Either way, it does not negate the argument that she could view AI as having been difficult to control based on Other Memory, but still believe that she could have a controllable mentat like AI today. Other memory does not guarantee the wisdom to make the right choice.

[redbugpest]

Who said the Ixian Navigation Machine was intelligent? There was no current AI to compare to that of the past.

Technology is not the same as AI.

AI does not always refer to “Human Like Intelligence”, but is more commonly associated with the abilities of machines to handle decision making based on previous experience, incomplete data, etc.

I didn't say "human-like", there was NO AI at that time to compare.

I never said about the Ixian navigation machine being intelligent, though I would think that it would have a strong AI engine to predict probability of stellar motion within the limits of the database it uses as a reference.

OK, what technology that Leto encouraged are you refering to, no-fields? Hardly intelligent by any definition.

Leto II in God Emperor was using items that he received from the Ixians that violated the prescriptions of the Jihad. That would infer that his transcribing device may have had a limited AI, and he knew that the Ixians were working on other banned tech.

[Ampoliros]

The Ixian navigation machine only needed to be capable of making calculations based on massive amounts of data in a near-instantaneous time frame. That's not Intelligence, just good old math. The recording device Leto II uses is basic biorythmic tech. We have it today. I'm pretty sure in 20,000+ years we'll know how to turn it on remotely. Is your garage door opener AI? Is your can opener? If you DVR remembers your favorite channels, does that make it alive?

Lets look at resources, if Alia wanted a "trustworthy AI" and it was capable of being built, she would have had one. I think just by wishing she had one she was accepting in her mind, even unconsciously, that it wasn't possible to have a Mentat-level calculator that was trustworthy.

You like to use the "not this time" argument but I think that the BG and anyone trained by them would be the most likely people to not fall for this. As they say, history repeats itself; The BG are the ultimate guardians of history and would know that AI's don't work. Alia as a pre-born daughter of a BG would definitely know this. It doesn't stop her from wanting the opposite, but even she wasn't "crazy" enough to order one to be built. The Baron didn't even trust Piter, he'd definitely argue against creation of an AI both politically and practically.

[Lundse]

In Alia’s case, she did not have the control to be able to plumb the depths of these other people’s memories without getting lost herself. So while her Other Memory contained memories of people who lived during the Jihad, one cannot say with certainty that she spent time adequately exploring them, especially since she was struggling for control from the voices.

If I am wrong, please show me chapter and verse. I do not believe that Frank did more than mention that her memories extended that far back.

"It's the strangeness of my daughter, is that it?" Jessica asked. "It's the way she speaks of things beyond her years and of things no child her age could know -- things of the past."
"How could she know what a child looked like on Bela Tegeuse?" Harah demanded.
"But he does!" Alia said, "Subiay's boy looks just like the son of Mitha born before the parting."

Bela Tegeuse was the third stop on the fremen migrations - I am not going to work back on exactly when this was. Lets just say the Alia did, already as a child, remember far back into the fremen memories inherited through Jessica and the wild reverend mother. With enough detail to remember a face.

Is it totally unfair of my to suggest the burden of proof is on you if you want to claim that Alia did not remember an event in which all mankind nearly perished (even if it was further back)?
I humbly suggest that if not, you will provide some argument as to why Alia's OM is supposed to be so much different from eg. Leto II's and Odrade's (who remembered back to our time) - does Frank suggest some cut-off point for OM? Some "out of memory"-error or people without the letter "oW in their name?

Either way, it does not negate the argument that she could view AI as having been difficult to control based on Other Memory, but still believe that she could have a controllable mentat like AI today. Other memory does not guarantee the wisdom to make the right choice.

OK. This is where this discussion either ends immediately, or you get this very basic fact straight. I have had discussions like this before, and I will not do so again. I am asking about a premise, and whether it is acceptable.

I am asking you whether Alia knew about Omnius!

I have exactly zero interest in her beliefs about him, feelings or whether she thought he would taste good sprinkled on icecream. I have said so already, so excuse the change in tone here. My interest is only on whether she knew about him, knew he was an AI and knew he turned on humanity and all but wiped it out.

That is all. Noone is taking about her "wisdom" (she was possesed by the Baron, for christ sakes, suggesting my argument is based on her judgement being sound is kind of upsetting).


So, to make this excessively clear:
Did Alia have detailed OM?
Did it go back hundreds of years?
Do we have any indication of some time-limit on anyones OM?
Do we have any reason to doubt Alia's went back to the time of Omnius?
Did she know Omnious was a murderous, evil AI which turned on humanity and almost wiped it out?
Did she also, at the exact same time, think about AIs that they were "compliant" and something you could "never distrust"?

I would love to see some straight answers at this point...

[Freakzilla]

Reverend Mother Dortjula used her OM to verify the authenticity of Greek coins:

Reverend Mothers on lonely posts tended to have what Sisters called "other
interests." An earlier age had called them hobbies but attention devoted to
interests often was extreme. Odrade thought most interests boring but found it
significant that Dortujla called hers a hobby. She collected old coins, did
she?
"What kind?"
"I have two early Greek in silver and a perfect gold obol."
"Authentic?"
"They're real." Meaning she had done a self-scan of Other Memory to
authenticate them. Fascinating. She exercised her abilities in a strengthening
way, even with her hobby. Inner history and exterior coincided.
~Chapterhouse: Dune

How detailed is that? And she's not preborn.

Does that go back far enough?

[TheDukester]

OK. This is where this discussion either ends immediately, or you get this very basic fact straight.

Yeah, good luck here, Lundse. Neither of those things are The Pest's strong points.