Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Paired opposites define your longings and those longings imprison you.
-The Zensunni Whip

Marty accuses Daniel of deliberately letting the no-ship get away. Daniel says he was surprised, he knew Duncan could see them but not that he could see the net. He was really thinned out and thought it would be easy. Marty says she had a planet picked out for them that would have really tested their abilities. Daniels says they can’t touch them now. Marty says they had a Tleilaxu Master with them she would have liked to study. Daniel says he hates to stomp them down when they start whistling at them. She says they aren’t gods and he says they themselves aren’t either. She was going to ask if he expected God himself when he asked who they were, which the Masters always do. He thinks that would have been funny, they have such a hard time believeing Face Dancers can be independent of them. She says it is a natural consequence of gathering enough personas from other people. She would have told them about how many Reverend Mothers’ personas they have. The Bene Gesserit feel alienated when peeked at. Not to mention the mentats, the Masters are always trying to control them too. They’re a dime a dozen. Reverend Mothers thin out far back enough to remember dimes but the big mentat doesn’t. She accuses him of letting them get away because of the nullentropy tube in the Master’s chest. He says he didn’t let them.

The End

This was hinted on happening in Heretics of Dune. Where a face dancer took the persona of the Head priest on Dune. How it was mentioned by the Bene J, that the face dancer looks like it actually believes that it is the priest. Seems to be that this is an early reference to this last chapter, so would this mean that these two Marty and Daniel are the enemies that cast out the Honored Matre and forced them back into the Old Empire?

Laphtiya wrote:This was hinted on happening in Heretics of Dune. Where a face dancer took the persona of the Head priest on Dune. How it was mentioned by the Bene J, that the face dancer looks like it actually believes that it is the priest. Seems to be that this is an early reference to this last chapter, so would this mean that these two Marty and Daniel are the enemies that cast out the Honored Matre and forced them back into the Old Empire?

Somehow Marty and Daniel seemed to have retained the knowledge that they are face dancers and through absorbing multiple personas have formed their own composite personas.

Marty called after him: "Gather up enough people and you get a big ball
of knowledge, Daniel! That's what I'd have told him. And those Bene
Gesserit in that ship! I'd have told them how many of them I have. Ever
notice how alienated they feel when we peek at them?"
Daniel bent to his black roses.
She stared after him, hands on her hips.
"Not to mention Mentats," he said. "There were two of them on that
ship-both gholas. You want to play with them?"

Notably, these two are using black roses, which as far as I know do not occur naturally (at least for us - genetic variance could bring them I suppose). I thought of this way back in my lurking days when the debate about Daniel and Marty being robots came up. Surely this is a suggestion of genetic manipulation a la Bene Tleilax?

Edited to add: Thanks again to Freak for the Chapterhouse: Dune in pdf format.

SadisticCynic wrote:

Marty called after him: "Gather up enough people and you get a big ball
of knowledge, Daniel! That's what I'd have told him. And those Bene
Gesserit in that ship! I'd have told them how many of them I have. Ever
notice how alienated they feel when we peek at them?"
Daniel bent to his black roses.
She stared after him, hands on her hips.
"Not to mention Mentats," he said. "There were two of them on that
ship-both gholas. You want to play with them?"

Notably, these two are using black roses, which as far as I know do not occur naturally (at least for us - genetic variance could bring them I suppose). I thought of this way back in my lurking days when the debate about Daniel and Marty being robots came up. Surely this is a suggestion of genetic manipulation a la Bene Tleilax?

Not necessarily, The Corrinos had black roses in their garden on SS:

"I'm troubled, Tyekanik," Farad'n said, speaking as they rounded a hedge
corner and approached a fountain surrounded by giant black roses. Gardeners
could be heard snipping beyond the hedges.
~CoD

Edited to add: Thanks again to Freak for the Chapterhouse: Dune in pdf format.

You are now, eternally in my debt.

Freakzilla wrote:

SadisticCynic wrote:

Marty called after him: "Gather up enough people and you get a big ball
of knowledge, Daniel! That's what I'd have told him. And those Bene
Gesserit in that ship! I'd have told them how many of them I have. Ever
notice how alienated they feel when we peek at them?"
Daniel bent to his black roses.
She stared after him, hands on her hips.
"Not to mention Mentats," he said. "There were two of them on that
ship-both gholas. You want to play with them?"

Notably, these two are using black roses, which as far as I know do not occur naturally (at least for us - genetic variance could bring them I suppose). I thought of this way back in my lurking days when the debate about Daniel and Marty being robots came up. Surely this is a suggestion of genetic manipulation a la Bene Tleilax?

Not necessarily, The Corrinos had black roses in their garden on SS:

"I'm troubled, Tyekanik," Farad'n said, speaking as they rounded a hedge
corner and approached a fountain surrounded by giant black roses. Gardeners
could be heard snipping beyond the hedges.
~CoD

Edited to add: Thanks again to Freak for the Chapterhouse: Dune in pdf format.

You are now, eternally in my debt.

I thought using the Reading Group made up for it.

Perhaps the gardeners snipping in the baackground are actually Daniel and Marty.

Freakzilla wrote:

SadisticCynic wrote:Edited to add: Thanks again to Freak for the Chapterhouse: Dune in pdf format.

You are now, eternally in my debt.

I thought using the Reading Group made up for it.

Fair enough, we'll call it even.

Perhaps the gardeners snipping in the baackground are actually Daniel and Marty.

Damn you man! Quick, edit your poast and delete that before Kieth sees it and writes a trilogy about it... that sucks.

Freakzilla wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

SadisticCynic wrote:Edited to add: Thanks again to Freak for the Chapterhouse: Dune in pdf format.

You are now, eternally in my debt.

I thought using the Reading Group made up for it.

Fair enough, we'll call it even.

Perhaps the gardeners snipping in the baackground are actually Daniel and Marty.

Damn you man! Quick, edit your poast and delete that before Kieth sees it and writes a trilogy about it... that sucks.

Don't worry, it's not as if those roses are actually transformers or flowmetal-shit that becomes hunter-seekers that kills anyone that touches them and...



Ah,fuck...

Rakis wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

SadisticCynic wrote:Edited to add: Thanks again to Freak for the Chapterhouse: Dune in pdf format.

You are now, eternally in my debt.

I thought using the Reading Group made up for it.

Fair enough, we'll call it even.

Perhaps the gardeners snipping in the baackground are actually Daniel and Marty.

Damn you man! Quick, edit your poast and delete that before Kieth sees it and writes a trilogy about it... that sucks.

Don't worry, it's not as if those roses are actually transformers or flowmetal-shit that becomes hunter-seekers that kills anyone that touches them and...



Ah,fuck...

You're doing it again!

But you know, after all the crazy conjectures we've made about upcoming stories, the reality never fails to dissapoint more than anything we could dream up.

Besides, it's not as if things could get WORSE.

That's because when we conjure up stories we do it properly!

What do you think Marty and Daniel mean about Idaho being spread so thin?

If they'd absorbed BG, would that give them Other Memory?

chanilover wrote:What do you think Marty and Daniel mean about Idaho being spread so thin?

I think it has to do with the distance between Duncan and M&D across The Net.

If they'd absorbed BG, would that give them Other Memory?

They would have the memory of Other Memory, but not their own OM. They'd have to go through The Agony for that.

I have no idea what it really means, but I get the feeling that it's something more complex than that. And I don't think it refers to the same thing every time FH used it (that is, he was using it in more than one sense):

They always noticed him eventually. He heard their voices. "There he is again, Marty," the man would say, calling the woman's attention to Idaho.
"I wonder how it is he can look through?" Marty asked once. "Doesn't seem possible."
"He's spread pretty thin, I think. Wonder if he knows the danger?"

No idea. But whatever it is, it's potentially dangerous.

"No use moaning about it," Daniel said. "They're where we can't touch them now. He was spread so thin, though, I expected to catch him easy."

This is probably the same sense as the passage above (??), but again, what does it mean? Why would Duncan being distant make it easier to catch him & the no-ship?

"Dimes? I don't think they'd have understood that, Marty. The Reverend Mothers, yes, but not that big Mentat. He didn't thin out that far back."

This obviously refers to Duncan's memories of his prior existences, which would not extend back as far as the BG RMs'. (The dimes reference also shows that D&M have absorbed RM OM back that far and can apparently access it at will or have internalized it in their own memories.)

Maybe this was leading up to the mystery of what was happening to the disappearing BG who were sent into the Scattering. I know the Honoured Matres were descended from BG and Fish Speakers, but some BG were obviously absorbed by Marty and Daniel. What a cliffhanger.

I've just finished reading all six books without going anywhere near Combover's whinnets, and it was good to clear my head of the McDune drivel.

SandChigger wrote:

"Dimes? I don't think they'd have understood that, Marty. The Reverend Mothers, yes, but not that big Mentat. He didn't thin out that far back."

This obviously refers to Duncan's memories of his prior existences, which would not extend back as far as the BG RMs'. (The dimes reference also shows that D&M have absorbed RM OM back that far and can apparently access it at will or have internalized it in their own memories.)

I wouldn't say this is proof that M&D have OM, just that they absorbed the persona of a RM who had OM of dimes.

Kind of like how Leto II had OM of Paul's prescient visions.

Marty alks about BG in the plural -

And those Bene Gesserits in that ship! I'd have told them how many of them I have. Ever notice how alienated they feel when we peak at them?

Marty and Daniel didn't go through the Agony, but wouldn't absorbing numerous RMs with Other Memory have the same effect in terms of OM?

Any ideas what the 'peaking' refers to?

chanilover wrote:Marty alks about BG in the plural -

And those Bene Gesserits in that ship! I'd have told them how many of them I have. Ever notice how alienated they feel when we peak at them?

Marty and Daniel didn't go through the Agony, but wouldn't absorbing numerous RMs with Other Memory have the same effect in terms of OM?

Similar, but it wouldn't be THEIR ancestral memories. Besides, OM seems to be blocked in the BT according to BG experiments with breeding captured Tleilaxu.

Any ideas what the 'peaking' refers to?

This is extrememly mysterious to me. It impies to me that "The Net" is somehow a form of communication through OM.

Freakzilla wrote:

SandChigger wrote:(The dimes reference also shows that D&M have absorbed RM OM back that far and can apparently access it at will or have internalized it in their own memories.)

I wouldn't say this is proof that M&D have OM, just that they absorbed the persona of a RM who had OM of dimes.

Kind of like how Leto II had OM of Paul's prescient visions.

How is that NOT what I wrote? I never referred to M&D's own bodily OM. ("Their own memories" = their personal/current individual memories ... whatever that means in their case.)

SandChigger wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

SandChigger wrote:(The dimes reference also shows that D&M have absorbed RM OM back that far and can apparently access it at will or have internalized it in their own memories.)

I wouldn't say this is proof that M&D have OM, just that they absorbed the persona of a RM who had OM of dimes.

Kind of like how Leto II had OM of Paul's prescient visions.

How is that NOT what I wrote? I never referred to M&D's own bodily OM. ("Their own memories" = their personal/current individual memories ... whatever that means in their case.)

I must have missread you, sorry.

Mondays suck.

Sorry ... was in attack-dog mode, flitting back and forth from FB.

Freakzilla wrote:

chanilover wrote:Marty alks about BG in the plural -

And those Bene Gesserits in that ship! I'd have told them how many of them I have. Ever notice how alienated they feel when we peak at them?

Marty and Daniel didn't go through the Agony, but wouldn't absorbing numerous RMs with Other Memory have the same effect in terms of OM?

Similar, but it wouldn't be THEIR ancestral memories. Besides, OM seems to be blocked in the BT according to BG experiments with breeding captured Tleilaxu.

Any ideas what the 'peaking' refers to?

This is extrememly mysterious to me. It impies to me that "The Net" is somehow a form of communication through OM.

Why through OM? I took "peaking" to refer to their ability to use the Net to spy remotely on individuals, similarly to how they were able to spy on Duncan and Duncan could spy on them.

Abruptly, the shimmering net from his vision replaced scrolling weapons and he
saw the elderly couple in their garden. They glared at him. The man's voice
became audible. "Stop spying on us!"

Taking this a step further, could Teg's ability to see no-ships be derived from the Net? It's described almost like prescience, but I don't think it's ever explained away as a result of prescience (could be wrong though). Daniel and Marty can obviously track no-ships not only with their nullfields engaged but also through foldspace (if jumping foldspace is instantaneous, how does the scene when the no-ship escapes Chapterhouse play out? It seems as though they are still in foldspace when Duncan dumps the no-ship's core). And I wonder that if Teg's abilities come from the Net, what would happen if the Sisterhood reawakened another ghola of him? Would they be linked and able to communicate through the Net?

Slugger wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

chanilover wrote:Marty alks about BG in the plural -

And those Bene Gesserits in that ship! I'd have told them how many of them I have. Ever notice how alienated they feel when we peak at them?

Marty and Daniel didn't go through the Agony, but wouldn't absorbing numerous RMs with Other Memory have the same effect in terms of OM?

Similar, but it wouldn't be THEIR ancestral memories. Besides, OM seems to be blocked in the BT according to BG experiments with breeding captured Tleilaxu.

Any ideas what the 'peaking' refers to?

This is extrememly mysterious to me. It impies to me that "The Net" is somehow a form of communication through OM.

Why through OM? I took "peaking" to refer to their ability to use the Net to spy remotely on individuals, similarly to how they were able to spy on Duncan and Duncan could spy on them.

That's the only way I can make sense out of it. The BG do not (or have not admitted to) seeing The Net, yet they know when M&D are peeking at them.

Abruptly, the shimmering net from his vision replaced scrolling weapons and he
saw the elderly couple in their garden. They glared at him. The man's voice
became audible. "Stop spying on us!"

Taking this a step further, could Teg's ability to see no-ships be derived from the Net? It's described almost like prescience, but I don't think it's ever explained away as a result of prescience (could be wrong though). Daniel and Marty can obviously track no-ships not only with their nullfields engaged but also through foldspace (if jumping foldspace is instantaneous, how does the scene when the no-ship escapes Chapterhouse play out? It seems as though they are still in foldspace when Duncan dumps the no-ship's core). And I wonder that if Teg's abilities come from the Net, what would happen if the Sisterhood reawakened another ghola of him? Would they be linked and able to communicate through the Net?

To ramp up the confusion an order of magnitude, it appears The Net funcions at least partialy through the ship's computer. I think M&D used the ship computer to track people. Remember, this IS a ship from The Scattering:

The circuits came flashing up on his projections -- colored ribbons with a
broken link into flight systems. The way around that breakage was visible after
only a few moments' study. Mentat observations had been prepared for it.
Multiples through the core!
Idaho sat back and waited.
Lift-off was a skull-rattling moment of blankness that stopped abruptly when
they were far enough clear of the surface to engage nullfields and enter
foldspace.
Idaho watched his projection. There they were: the old couple in their garden
setting! He saw the net shimmering in front of them, the man gesturing at it,
smiling in round-faced satisfaction. They moved in a transparent overlay that
revealed ship circuits behind them. The net grew larger -- not lines but
ribbons thicker than the projected circuits.
The man's lips shaped words but there was no sound. "We expected you."
Idaho's hands went to his console, fingers splayed in the comfield to grasp
required elements of the circuit control. No time for niceties. Gross
disruption. He was into the core within a second. From there, it was a simple
matter to dump entire segments. Navigation went first. He saw the net begin to
thin, the look of surprise on the man's face. Nullfields were next. Idaho felt
the ship lurching in foldspace. The net tipped, becoming elongated with the two
watchers foreshortened and thinned. Idaho wiped out star-memory circuits,
taking his own data with them.
Net and watchers vanished.
How did I know they would be there?
He had no answer except a certainty rooted in the repeated visions.
Sheeana did not look up when he found her at the temporary flight-control board
in the guard quarters. She was bent over the board, staring at it in
consternation. The projection above her showed they had emerged from foldspace.
Idaho recognized none of the visible star patterns but he had expected that.
Sheeana swiveled and looked at Garimi standing over her. "We've lost all data
storage!"
Idaho tapped his temple with a forefinger. "No we haven't."
"But it'll take years to recover even the essentials!" Sheeana protested. "What
happened?"
"We're an unidentifiable ship in an unidentifiable universe," Idaho said.
"Isn't that what we wanted?"

I think The Net is a computerized interstellar communication system linked through OM/Prescience. I've always thought (and some will yell at me for being mystical) that OM and Prescience were opposite sides of the same coin.

If you're prescient and have OM, might it be possible to project your OM forward?

The Net has always been a vague metapsychical projection to me, certainly it involves prescient abilities evidenced by Idahos dumping of the starmaps stretching the net to breaking point. Beyond that I'm at a loss, just wanted to share my lack of certainty with everyone.

just finished Chapterhouse for the second time. I'ts been years since I read it the first time and I've forgotten alot of things - that only made the re-read better. The best part of finishing is the feeling I have in my guts - "you're wrong KJA and BH" but ofcourse, they'll have to actually read the books to know that. There's so many answers about what drove the HM away - and it's obvious it wasn't omnius and erasmus or whatever those two inbreds claims (is BH a face dancer with mental issues???)

I don't know with you others but for the net and Duncan/Marty-Daniel I have thoughts about them being able to bend or fold space on their own. I think it says something about it someplace in the book, but I'll have to go back for that.

For Duncan being spread too thin - couldn't they mean him being spread over all these eons of time...but then again why can't Scytale see them or can he?

Perhaps the net functions partially as a bridge between prescients, navigators, and Ixian style navigation machines, maybe it is a method of projection that prescients can use for long range ftl communication; somehow magnifying the 'spice tau' connection over infinite distance. This might explain Leto II's telepathic projection to Muad'dib if he was the first to tap into the net or even started its creation.